Offseason Thread

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VikingLord
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by VikingLord »

Raz wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:36 pm I haven’t read every post in this thread so if it has been hashed over before forgive me. I have mixed emotions on Kewsi mostly good but man these drafts haven’t been good, but they weren’t exactly great under speilman either. What has the organization done about the scouting department? I don’t know the process but I’m sure Kewsi has many people he relies on to get things right are any of them hold overs from the previous gm. I don’t have the data but I remember reading that we were bottom of the league in draft picks with second contracts. Until this drafting gets better it will be a struggle. I know a big risk but an option on Darnold’s contract would look pretty good now.
A lot of KAM's moves seem very focused on the short term. Not all of them, but he seems driven by short term thinking and short term results.

Examples are his first draft where he traded way down to try to, as he put it, solve multiple roster challenges in one draft.

Another would be his draft last year where he traded basically all of the Vikings picks in this year's draft for two players (mostly Turner), neither of whom played much last year (McCarthy obviously because of injury, but Darnold was beating him out for the starting job prior to that injury).

Signing Darnold on a one year deal with no team option should he do well. They get the successful year out of him and that is all in a year where he might have been traded for at least one or more additional draft picks.

The defensive secondary at least is going to have to be completely rebuilt. KAM did little to nothing to mitigate that situation, and that will likely produce some more desperation this offseason at some point.

I get why people equate the Vikings regular season record with KAM's performance, but KAM seems to be benefiting from KOC's coaching a lot more than he is enabling those results, at least from where I sit. I am actually encouraged to see the Wilfs have not extended him yet.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by Alaskan »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:00 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 4:45 pm It is the only reason I can think of for you to have a take that is so out there.
Or, more likely, he's just a troll...
VL you responded to my post while I was on your FOE list. And I am the troll? Give me a break buddy. It's pretty obvious to any anyone who can read and follow along that you don't like to have your thoughts challenged. And you definitely don't like to look at things from any perspective but your own. Now you are on my FOE list and I guarantee I will not read or respond to any of your long rants detailing your short sighted opinions and your inability to understand a point from another perspective.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by CharVike »

Raz wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:36 pm I haven’t read every post in this thread so if it has been hashed over before forgive me. I have mixed emotions on Kewsi mostly good but man these drafts haven’t been good, but they weren’t exactly great under speilman either. What has the organization done about the scouting department? I don’t know the process but I’m sure Kewsi has many people he relies on to get things right are any of them hold overs from the previous gm. I don’t have the data but I remember reading that we were bottom of the league in draft picks with second contracts. Until this drafting gets better it will be a struggle. I know a big risk but an option on Darnold’s contract would look pretty good now.
I do believe that most of these prove it contracts for vets are one year deals. Mayfield signed a one year 4 mill contract with the Bucs. We signed Davenport 1 year 13 mill. We signed another 1st round bust DL player this year for one year. So I won't fight KAM on that one. Everybody including him felt Sam was a bum. If they decide they need to keep him they can always tag or sign longer term which I don't see happening. Sam isn't the long term sustainable solution in their eyes. That's JJM. Sam had one of the best seasons we ever saw from a QB of ours and it went well beyond just the stats. He pulled games out ect... But he also proved he couldn't beat the Rams or Lions and that won't work. IMO if he faced the Eagles it would have been a beat down also. That team gets after the QB hard and Sam proved he can't handle that. What KAM can't be excused from is his pitiful draft record. You can never build a true contender drafting like he does. It will always be a one year fix to make the playoffs and get beat Year after year. That's why he needs to be fired once his contract is up.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

CharVike wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 1:15 pm
Cliff wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 8:02 pm

To be fair when considering those stats they drafted JJ who they never intened to start, Turner who was behind Van Ginkel, and Cine who was immediately injured. We'll never know if he was destine to be terrible or if he never fully recovered.
There is no sense making a bunch of moves for a 1st round backup. Turner might not start until year 4 unless Ginkel is dealt or told to be a backup at his cap number. Round 1 isn't a depth/development round. KAM has been living off Speilman's players. Which is fine but fill the holes with your players. That all starts with drafting and signing UDFA and he has failed.
I’m not here to defend KAM, but let’s be fair. Spielman’s players include Jefferson, Darrisaw, O’Neill, Bradbury, Harry and Bynum. That’s it. Every other starter was either drafted or acquired by KAM.

Look guys, he’s going to get extended. It’s not a matter of if, but when. We might as well get used to the idea. It’s long been a tradition in the NFL that you don’t make news leading up to the Super Bowl. Once it’s over, they’ll announce his signing.
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Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by StumpHunter »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:50 am
CharVike wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 1:15 pm
There is no sense making a bunch of moves for a 1st round backup. Turner might not start until year 4 unless Ginkel is dealt or told to be a backup at his cap number. Round 1 isn't a depth/development round. KAM has been living off Speilman's players. Which is fine but fill the holes with your players. That all starts with drafting and signing UDFA and he has failed.
I’m not here to defend KAM, but let’s be fair. Spielman’s players include Jefferson, Darrisaw, O’Neill, Bradbury, Harry and Bynum. That’s it. Every other starter was either drafted or acquired by KAM.

Look guys, he’s going to get extended. It’s not a matter of if, but when. We might as well get used to the idea. It’s long been a tradition in the NFL that you don’t make news leading up to the Super Bowl. Once it’s over, they’ll announce his signing.
Mettellus and Brandel are starters from the Spielman era too.

The returning starters in 2025 that Kwesi brought in:
Addison
Hock
Greenard
AVG
Phillips
Cashman

That means Spielman still has 6 starters he drafted on this team in 2025 compared to 6 starters that Kwesi brought in. 7 if depending on if you count Nailor or Oliver as a starter.

With the short lifespan of NFL players, that is not a good look for our current GM, that the core of this team 4 years later is still Spielman era picks.

That all changes if JJ McCarthy works out which is why I think Kwesi will do what it takes to make him work out. That means revamping the interior of the Oline, drafting a RB with one of our 1st 2 picks, and making life easy for a young QB to succeed.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by Cliff »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:50 am
CharVike wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 1:15 pm
There is no sense making a bunch of moves for a 1st round backup. Turner might not start until year 4 unless Ginkel is dealt or told to be a backup at his cap number. Round 1 isn't a depth/development round. KAM has been living off Speilman's players. Which is fine but fill the holes with your players. That all starts with drafting and signing UDFA and he has failed.
I’m not here to defend KAM, but let’s be fair. Spielman’s players include Jefferson, Darrisaw, O’Neill, Bradbury, Harry and Bynum. That’s it. Every other starter was either drafted or acquired by KAM.

Look guys, he’s going to get extended. It’s not a matter of if, but when. We might as well get used to the idea. It’s long been a tradition in the NFL that you don’t make news leading up to the Super Bowl. Once it’s over, they’ll announce his signing.
That's kind of where I am on the issue. I don't think KAM has been some kind of super genius with his moves and he's been downright awful drafting (unless JJ and Turner become stars), but aside from when basically all of their QBs were injured starting mid-season in 2023 the teams he has put together have been winners (as in had winning records). It's extremely likely the 2023 team would have gone to the playoffs, or at least been above .500, if not for fielding their 3rd and 4th options at QB during various times during the last half of the season as well.

In any case, I also expect him to be signed.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by Cliff »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:20 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:50 am
I’m not here to defend KAM, but let’s be fair. Spielman’s players include Jefferson, Darrisaw, O’Neill, Bradbury, Harry and Bynum. That’s it. Every other starter was either drafted or acquired by KAM.

Look guys, he’s going to get extended. It’s not a matter of if, but when. We might as well get used to the idea. It’s long been a tradition in the NFL that you don’t make news leading up to the Super Bowl. Once it’s over, they’ll announce his signing.
Mettellus and Brandel are starters from the Spielman era too.

The returning starters in 2025 that Kwesi brought in:
Addison
Hock
Greenard
AVG
Phillips
Cashman

That means Spielman still has 6 starters he drafted on this team in 2025 compared to 6 starters that Kwesi brought in. 7 if depending on if you count Nailor or Oliver as a starter.

With the short lifespan of NFL players, that is not a good look for our current GM, that the core of this team 4 years later is still Spielman era picks.


That all changes if JJ McCarthy works out which is why I think Kwesi will do what it takes to make him work out. That means revamping the interior of the Oline, drafting a RB with one of our 1st 2 picks, and making life easy for a young QB to succeed.
I don't understand that logic. If you've got good players on the roster, why dump them just because the previous GM picked them up? Upgrading isn't always possible. Anyway more than 7 starters were picked up by KAM in 2024. You're only accounting for 13 total players and if you're talking about the 2025 squad all of the remaining players will be players that KAM brings in.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by CharVike »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:50 am
CharVike wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 1:15 pm
There is no sense making a bunch of moves for a 1st round backup. Turner might not start until year 4 unless Ginkel is dealt or told to be a backup at his cap number. Round 1 isn't a depth/development round. KAM has been living off Speilman's players. Which is fine but fill the holes with your players. That all starts with drafting and signing UDFA and he has failed.
I’m not here to defend KAM, but let’s be fair. Spielman’s players include Jefferson, Darrisaw, O’Neill, Bradbury, Harry and Bynum. That’s it. Every other starter was either drafted or acquired by KAM.

Look guys, he’s going to get extended. It’s not a matter of if, but when. We might as well get used to the idea. It’s long been a tradition in the NFL that you don’t make news leading up to the Super Bowl. Once it’s over, they’ll announce his signing.
They can extend him to do his current duties like culture building which is a bunch of BS and there's not a person walking who can define it. It can't even be measured. Get somebody in here that understands player evaluation methods, value of draft slots so we don't give picks away again and everything else related to acquiring young talent via the draft process. This building a team through FA won't work. The cost is too high and there is a limited amount available.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by StumpHunter »

Cliff wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:02 am
StumpHunter wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:20 am
Mettellus and Brandel are starters from the Spielman era too.

The returning starters in 2025 that Kwesi brought in:
Addison
Hock
Greenard
AVG
Phillips
Cashman

That means Spielman still has 6 starters he drafted on this team in 2025 compared to 6 starters that Kwesi brought in. 7 if depending on if you count Nailor or Oliver as a starter.

With the short lifespan of NFL players, that is not a good look for our current GM, that the core of this team 4 years later is still Spielman era picks.


That all changes if JJ McCarthy works out which is why I think Kwesi will do what it takes to make him work out. That means revamping the interior of the Oline, drafting a RB with one of our 1st 2 picks, and making life easy for a young QB to succeed.
I don't understand that logic. If you've got good players on the roster, why dump them just because the previous GM picked them up? Upgrading isn't always possible. Anyway more than 7 starters were picked up by KAM in 2024. You're only accounting for 13 total players and if you're talking about the 2025 squad all of the remaining players will be players that KAM brings in.
I am not arguing he should dump players that are good. I was just showing how little 3 off seasons of Kwesi has done for this team. He will add more this off season, but it will be around a core of players that Spielman brought in.

By the way, something that isn't brought up enough is that Kwesi DID dump some good Spielman players to make room for lesser players he brought in. Cleveland and Tomlinson would be massive upgrades at LG and DT, and a possession WR like Thielen is something our offense desperately needs. Replacing Hunter with Greenard seems like it will work out, but I better not hear about how we should trade for Myles Garret to add to our pass rush when Hunter would have only cost us cap to keep last season. Going way back, not extending a very affordable Tyler Conklin with nothing at TE was incredibly stupid. Sure we got Hock, but it cost us a 2nd round pick and lot more cap.

I just don't remember this many former Vikings doing this well on other teams when Spielman was the GM.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:09 pm
Raz wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:36 pm I haven’t read every post in this thread so if it has been hashed over before forgive me. I have mixed emotions on Kewsi mostly good but man these drafts haven’t been good, but they weren’t exactly great under speilman either. What has the organization done about the scouting department? I don’t know the process but I’m sure Kewsi has many people he relies on to get things right are any of them hold overs from the previous gm. I don’t have the data but I remember reading that we were bottom of the league in draft picks with second contracts. Until this drafting gets better it will be a struggle. I know a big risk but an option on Darnold’s contract would look pretty good now.
A lot of KAM's moves seem very focused on the short term. Not all of them, but he seems driven by short term thinking and short term results.

Examples are his first draft where he traded way down to try to, as he put it, solve multiple roster challenges in one draft.

Another would be his draft last year where he traded basically all of the Vikings picks in this year's draft for two players (mostly Turner), neither of whom played much last year (McCarthy obviously because of injury, but Darnold was beating him out for the starting job prior to that injury).

Signing Darnold on a one year deal with no team option should he do well. They get the successful year out of him and that is all in a year where he might have been traded for at least one or more additional draft picks.

The defensive secondary at least is going to have to be completely rebuilt. KAM did little to nothing to mitigate that situation, and that will likely produce some more desperation this offseason at some point.

I get why people equate the Vikings regular season record with KAM's performance, but KAM seems to be benefiting from KOC's coaching a lot more than he is enabling those results, at least from where I sit. I am actually encouraged to see the Wilfs have not extended him yet.
He really took the Wilfs decree of "just making the playoffs and see what happens" to heart. Doesn't really seem like there is a direction for the team of actually building a roster that could compete for a championship for multiple years.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by CharVike »

Cliff wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:54 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:50 am
I’m not here to defend KAM, but let’s be fair. Spielman’s players include Jefferson, Darrisaw, O’Neill, Bradbury, Harry and Bynum. That’s it. Every other starter was either drafted or acquired by KAM.

Look guys, he’s going to get extended. It’s not a matter of if, but when. We might as well get used to the idea. It’s long been a tradition in the NFL that you don’t make news leading up to the Super Bowl. Once it’s over, they’ll announce his signing.
That's kind of where I am on the issue. I don't think KAM has been some kind of super genius with his moves and he's been downright awful drafting (unless JJ and Turner become stars), but aside from when basically all of their QBs were injured starting mid-season in 2023 the teams he has put together have been winners (as in had winning records). It's extremely likely the 2023 team would have gone to the playoffs, or at least been above .500, if not for fielding their 3rd and 4th options at QB during various times during the last half of the season as well.

In any case, I also expect him to be signed.
Credit should be given for the first 3 years. Here's the problem I have. We are built as a win now team and right now we haven't shown the ability to beat the top level teams. Perhaps that changes in 2025. I do think we need to get more physical at the point on both sides of the ball. We'll see what they do this off season. I could be wrong and KAM when hired stressed continuity. I agree with that providing you have the right pieces. Continuity of garage is still garbage.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by Cliff »

CharVike wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:20 pm
Cliff wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:54 am

That's kind of where I am on the issue. I don't think KAM has been some kind of super genius with his moves and he's been downright awful drafting (unless JJ and Turner become stars), but aside from when basically all of their QBs were injured starting mid-season in 2023 the teams he has put together have been winners (as in had winning records). It's extremely likely the 2023 team would have gone to the playoffs, or at least been above .500, if not for fielding their 3rd and 4th options at QB during various times during the last half of the season as well.

In any case, I also expect him to be signed.
Credit should be given for the first 3 years. Here's the problem I have. We are built as a win now team and right now we haven't shown the ability to beat the top level teams. Perhaps that changes in 2025. I do think we need to get more physical at the point on both sides of the ball. We'll see what they do this off season. I could be wrong and KAM when hired stressed continuity. I agree with that providing you have the right pieces. Continuity of garage is still garbage.
Are they built as a "win now" team though? What do you mean by that? They are winning now, which is great, but they drafted a QB in the last draft. Before they started winning games last season they were considered a "rebuilding team". They've got a lot of cap space to make moves. Some of their "core" pieces are signed for the next 3 or 4 years (Darrisaw, Jefferson, Greenard, Hockenson). With many others signed through 2026. I'm sure they expect McCarthy and Turner to be "core" players as well and if that turns out to be true they're both signed through 2028.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by CharVike »

Cliff wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:52 pm
CharVike wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:20 pm
Credit should be given for the first 3 years. Here's the problem I have. We are built as a win now team and right now we haven't shown the ability to beat the top level teams. Perhaps that changes in 2025. I do think we need to get more physical at the point on both sides of the ball. We'll see what they do this off season. I could be wrong and KAM when hired stressed continuity. I agree with that providing you have the right pieces. Continuity of garage is still garbage.
Are they built as a "win now" team though? What do you mean by that? They are winning now, which is great, but they drafted a QB in the last draft. Before they started winning games last season they were considered a "rebuilding team". They've got a lot of cap space to make moves. Some of their "core" pieces are signed for the next 3 or 4 years (Darrisaw, Jefferson, Greenard, Hockenson). With many others signed through 2026. I'm sure they expect McCarthy and Turner to be "core" players as well and if that turns out to be true they're both signed through 2028.
What I mean by win now is signing veteran high dollar players to fill open spots. I don't see many young players in our lineup. Of course that will change with JJM and Turner in there this season. Perhaps Mekhi Blackmon and the other young CB will be in the lineup. That will be a tremendous savings as well. The Commanders were also in rebuild and made it to the Champ game. They knocked off the best team in the NFC in the playoffs also. Who saw that? The Rams got zero respect and won a playoff game easily. They gave the Eagles a good fight. Losing their rookie DT that game hurt them big time. Nobody expected them to draft like they did. Just as for us there wasn't a person out there that expected Sammy to play like he did. He had a tremendous season
which was so far out of his expectation it could be called a miracle one off. That helped us big time. The entire team rallied around him. It was great to see for a change and excellent entertainment.
A guy I forgot Cashman, He was tremendous. When he missed games we got beat. Even old man Jones wasn't some cheap pickup. Old man Gilmore who was worn out at the end.
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by VikingLord »

Here's an open question for the board - if you had to choose among bringing Spielman back, extending KAM, or hiring a different GM from around the NFL, which would you choose and why?

I think it is notable that nobody picked Spielman up after the Vikings let him go. I think it is equally notable to wonder what other teams around the league might jump at a guy like KAM were the Vikings to let him go. The comparisons between Spielman's performance and his lingering impact on the team's talent profile compared to KAM's performance and his impact are valid.

If you think about head coaches it is easier because their performance is more directly tied to a team's ultimate win-loss record, but in general good coaches are in demand. They don't have to be objectively great coaches - just good. If the Vikings were to have let KOC walk, for example, does anyone doubt he would have had multiple job offers waiting for him around the league?

Can the same be said for KAM?
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Re: Offseason Thread

Post by VikingLord »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:50 am Look guys, he’s going to get extended. It’s not a matter of if, but when. We might as well get used to the idea. It’s long been a tradition in the NFL that you don’t make news leading up to the Super Bowl. Once it’s over, they’ll announce his signing.
While that wouldn't surprise me, one would hope the Wilfs are not resigned to it just because they don't want to admit they made a bad move hiring him.