Top Tier QB's

[Pondering Her Percy]

So yeah, when Cousins is now in an offense with a lot of offensive talent (way more than he ever had in Washington) and this team is now ran by an offensive minded coach, specifically a scheme Cousins knows well, there's a lot of reason for optimism. Washingtons offensive players and the Vikings offensive players just arent in the same wheel house.

I don't mean to butt into this debate between Stump and you, but I'm curious what would have to happen for you to agree that Cousins isn't the answer in Minnesota and they should move on from him?

I don’t think it’s necessary right now. I like the situation they have in terms of him having 2 years left. If their plan is to draft a QB next year in the first round, I think it’s an ideal scenario. They let the rookie sit under kirk his final year and then let Kirk walk. Kirk is getting up there in age. Still very durable but we have to draft a QB at some point. Allowing him to sit under Kirk for a year is a smart decision

[Fat Stupid Loser]

The reason that argument simply doesnt work is because comparing Washington's offensive talent to the Vikings offensive talent or to McVay's offensive talent now in LA isnt even close. Both LA and the Vikings have way more talent than Washington had back then. And no, I dont care about the 90 year old WRs you will want to bring up in Washington, those two in their prime dont even match up to JJ/Thielen/Osborn or Kupp/the many good WRs they've had, let alone in their 30s.

So yeah, when Cousins is now in an offense with a lot of offensive talent (way more than he ever had in Washington) and this team is now ran by an offensive minded coach, specifically a scheme Cousins knows well, there's a lot of reason for optimism. Washingtons offensive players and the Vikings offensive players just arent in the same wheel house.

Pierre Garcon and Jackson were 1 year older than Kupp was last season when they played with Kirk in 2015. Both were younger than Thielen will be next season.

This past season we have seen Adams and Hill traded for blockbuster deals and then signed to massive contracts, the majority of which will be paid out while those two WRs are the same age or older than Garcon and Jackson were in 2015 and 2016. Diggs got a massive extension despite apparently being "90 years old". What do you know about WRs at the age of 29 and 30 that these NFL execs don't?

A great Oline, very good WR corp (Jackson, Garcon, Crowder) and solid TE are better weapons than he will have next year and he won 8 games with McVay as his OC.

Garcon was a solid receiver, solid. Jackson was an elite one trick pony. Who missed 6 games a year with a hammy and was nothing more than a decoy 6 other games a year due to said hammy.. Crowder? He was fine for a third but due to Jackson being injured/borderline injured he was a number two which he really wasn't good enough to be. Kirk got him the ball a lot. Made him look better than he was.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Pierre Garcon and Jackson were 1 year older than Kupp was last season when they played with Kirk in 2015. Both were younger than Thielen will be next season.

This past season we have seen Adams and Hill traded for blockbuster deals and then signed to massive contracts, the majority of which will be paid out while those two WRs are the same age or older than Garcon and Jackson were in 2015 and 2016. Diggs got a massive extension despite apparently being "90 years old". What do you know about WRs at the age of 29 and 30 that these NFL execs don't?

A great Oline, very good WR corp (Jackson, Garcon, Crowder) and solid TE are better weapons than he will have next year and he won 8 games with McVay as his OC.

Garcon was a solid receiver, solid. Jackson was an elite one trick pony. Who missed 6 games a year with a hammy and was nothing more than a decoy 6 other games a year due to said hammy.. Crowder? He was fine for a third but due to Jackson being injured/borderline injured he was a number two which he really wasn't good enough to be. Kirk got him the ball a lot. Made him look better than he was.

Exactly.

[StumpHunter]

Pierre Garcon and Jackson were 1 year older than Kupp was last season when they played with Kirk in 2015. Both were younger than Thielen will be next season.

This past season we have seen Adams and Hill traded for blockbuster deals and then signed to massive contracts, the majority of which will be paid out while those two WRs are the same age or older than Garcon and Jackson were in 2015 and 2016. Diggs got a massive extension despite apparently being "90 years old". What do you know about WRs at the age of 29 and 30 that these NFL execs don't?

A great Oline, very good WR corp (Jackson, Garcon, Crowder) and solid TE are better weapons than he will have next year and he won 8 games with McVay as his OC.

Garcon was a solid receiver, solid. Jackson was an elite one trick pony. Who missed 6 games a year with a hammy and was nothing more than a decoy 6 other games a year due to said hammy.. Crowder? He was fine for a third but due to Jackson being injured/borderline injured he was a number two which he really wasn't good enough to be. Kirk got him the ball a lot. Made him look better than he was.

Jackson missed 7 games one year in 2015 and only 1 in 2016, was an all pro and 3 time pro bowler. Garcon had as many 1K receiving seasons as Thielen does. Crowder as a #3 option is better than any #3 option the Vikings have had since Jake Reed and Jordan Reed was a much more productive TE than Smith has ever been and it really isn't close. PFF had the Washing receivers as the 7th and 3rd best WR group in the NFL in 2015 and 2016. Their Oline as 15th and 7th best with the 2016 Oline grading higher than the 2021 Rams Oline. Comparing that 2016 rank that I apparently am exaggerating to the talent of to the 2021 Vikings' and Rams' by PFF grade:

2016 Redskins:
Receiver Rank: 2nd
Run Rank: 12
Oline Rank: 7th

2021 Vikings:
Receiver Rank: 5th
Run Rank: 26th
Oline Rank: 26th

2021 Rams:
Receiver Rank: 3rd
Run Rank: 25th
Oline Rank: 1st

2022 we will see Cook getting one year closer to whatever age he will inevitably stop being an effective runner, Thielen being 100 years old according to PHP logic, a possible downgrade at TE, and no improvements on the Oline. Oh, and we aren't actually getting McVay here in MN any more than we were getting Reid when we hired Chilly. That seems to be forgotten when talking about what KOC is actually bringing to the table and while McVay's OCs have had a pretty good track record when moving on to be head coaches, none have been as good as McVay. A lesser McVay when even the real McVay couldn't get more out of Cousins than Zimmer did with less offensive talent surrounding the QB on the Vikings means a coaching change isn't suddenly going to turn Cousins into anything more than he always has been.

[StumpHunter]

I don't mean to butt into this debate between Stump and you, but I'm curious what would have to happen for you to agree that Cousins isn't the answer in Minnesota and they should move on from him?

I don’t think it’s necessary right now. I like the situation they have in terms of him having 2 years left. If their plan is to draft a QB next year in the first round, I think it’s an ideal scenario. They let the rookie sit under kirk his final year and then let Kirk walk. Kirk is getting up there in age. Still very durable but we have to draft a QB at some point. Allowing him to sit under Kirk for a year is a smart decision

It seems like you believe strongly in this team though. How are they going to draft the QBOTF when they are drafting 22nd or later next year and QB needy teams like Carolina, NO, NYG, Seattle, Atl and possibly the Jets and Jax are drafting ahead of them?

[CharVike]

I don’t think it’s necessary right now. I like the situation they have in terms of him having 2 years left. If their plan is to draft a QB next year in the first round, I think it’s an ideal scenario. They let the rookie sit under kirk his final year and then let Kirk walk. Kirk is getting up there in age. Still very durable but we have to draft a QB at some point. Allowing him to sit under Kirk for a year is a smart decision

It seems like you believe strongly in this team though. How are they going to draft the QBOTF when they are drafting 22nd or later next year and QB needy teams like Carolina, NO, NYG, Seattle, Atl and possibly the Jets and Jax are drafting ahead of them?

Why would anyone think because of a 2 year deal it's over in 2 years? He played on one year deals and is still around. We don't have a body on our roster that can take over the starting QB position at this point. If we did Cousins would be gone. People thinking we can trade up for a QB are dreaming. No team will give up the potential face of the franchise. The thought of having a guy sit a year and then be a good QB isn't set in stone. That's a best guess and ideal. Trey Lance should take over for the 49ers this year. The way he looked last year I don't see it. Same for Rodgers replacement. The age deal with QBs is changing also. Brady is mid 40s and is playing as good as ever. His arm still works. He's a smart player and as he told everybody the safest place is in the pocket. Yes you can get hurt in the pocket because it's a contact sport. Once you take off it's a jail break and anything can happen. Ask Dak and eventually Lamar. Guys are coming for you from all angels at full speed. That won't last. Cousins is healthy. When a guy is there we need to make the pick. That may happen next year. These new people have 3 year deals. They need to win now. Inserting an unknown isn't a smart move in that situation. Unless that unknown has a tremendous well rounded skill set. We have 3 guys behind Cousins maybe one of them have or will have that in short time.

[StumpHunter]

It seems like you believe strongly in this team though. How are they going to draft the QBOTF when they are drafting 22nd or later next year and QB needy teams like Carolina, NO, NYG, Seattle, Atl and possibly the Jets and Jax are drafting ahead of them?

Why would anyone think because of a 2 year deal it's over in 2 years? He played on one year deals and is still around. We don't have a body on our roster that can take over the starting QB position at this point. If we did Cousins would be gone. People thinking we can trade up for a QB are dreaming. No team will give up the potential face of the franchise. The thought of having a guy sit a year and then be a good QB isn't set in stone.

Exactly. Cousins is our QB this year, next year and every year until he retires with 1 to 2 playoff wins and one of the richest QBs in the history of the game unless we completely change our philosophy with how we are handling team building. That starts with ownership allowing the GM to put a bad team on the field while it attempts to rebuild into something better, and I don't think this ownership group will do that. Not while they state their "#1 goal is to take back the NFCN". There is usually a pretty significant difference between a team just good enough to win the division and one good enough to win the SB.

That's a best guess and ideal. Trey Lance should take over for the 49ers this year. The way he looked last year I don't see it. Same for Rodgers replacement. The age deal with QBs is changing also. Brady is mid 40s and is playing as good as ever. His arm still works. He's a smart player and as he told everybody the safest place is in the pocket. Yes you can get hurt in the pocket because it's a contact sport.

Brady is the exception that proves the rule. The vast majority of QBs start to fall off around 35 and only a handful are even serviceable at 38.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I don’t think it’s necessary right now. I like the situation they have in terms of him having 2 years left. If their plan is to draft a QB next year in the first round, I think it’s an ideal scenario. They let the rookie sit under kirk his final year and then let Kirk walk. Kirk is getting up there in age. Still very durable but we have to draft a QB at some point. Allowing him to sit under Kirk for a year is a smart decision

It seems like you believe strongly in this team though. How are they going to draft the QBOTF when they are drafting 22nd or later next year and QB needy teams like Carolina, NO, NYG, Seattle, Atl and possibly the Jets and Jax are drafting ahead of them?

Yeah I mean how could we possibly do that right? Just like how could the Chiefs possibly come up from 27 to 10 to land Patrick Mahomes? Just not even sure how that's possible

[StumpHunter]

It seems like you believe strongly in this team though. How are they going to draft the QBOTF when they are drafting 22nd or later next year and QB needy teams like Carolina, NO, NYG, Seattle, Atl and possibly the Jets and Jax are drafting ahead of them?

Yeah I mean how could we possibly do that right? Just like how could the Chiefs possibly come up from 27 to 10 to land Patrick Mahomes? Just not even sure how that's possible

Yep all we need is for what looks like at least 6 teams who were planning on using next year's draft to improve their QB position (Carolina, NYG, NO, ATL, Detroit and Seattle) to not select or trade up with more ammunition.

KC got Mahomes because teams felt the QB draft class in 2017 was weak and planned to fill their QB needs in other ways similar to what happened this year. On top of that, it also took the Bears choosing Christian Ponder Jr over Mahomes for them to even have a shot at Mahomes. That isn't what is going to happen with the 2023 draft class and if we wanted to replicate what KC did, we should have drafted a QB this year.

[CharVike]

Why would anyone think because of a 2 year deal it's over in 2 years? He played on one year deals and is still around. We don't have a body on our roster that can take over the starting QB position at this point. If we did Cousins would be gone. People thinking we can trade up for a QB are dreaming. No team will give up the potential face of the franchise. The thought of having a guy sit a year and then be a good QB isn't set in stone.

Exactly. Cousins is our QB this year, next year and every year until he retires with 1 to 2 playoff wins and one of the richest QBs in the history of the game unless we completely change our philosophy with how we are handling team building. That starts with ownership allowing the GM to put a bad team on the field while it attempts to rebuild into something better, and I don't think this ownership group will do that. Not while they state their "#1 goal is to take back the NFCN". There is usually a pretty significant difference between a team just good enough to win the division and one good enough to win the SB.

That's a best guess and ideal. Trey Lance should take over for the 49ers this year. The way he looked last year I don't see it. Same for Rodgers replacement. The age deal with QBs is changing also. Brady is mid 40s and is playing as good as ever. His arm still works. He's a smart player and as he told everybody the safest place is in the pocket. Yes you can get hurt in the pocket because it's a contact sport.

Brady is the exception that proves the rule. The vast majority of QBs start to fall off around 35 and only a handful are even serviceable at 38.

The Bucs won the Super Bowl and couldn't win the division. The difference is they were a team that got on a roll, played solid defense in the playoffs and had a QB who can throw. The Bengals did the same thing as they needed to play 3 games to make the Super Bowl. Their D played great football in the playoffs and did a good job in the Super Bowl which kept them in the game. Joe didn't do much at all as he was under pressure but that D didn't give up. They get the pat on the back. Under McVay the Rams have always played solid D which he never gets any credit for. People feel he's an offensive genius and that's not the case. The SB they lost they only gave up 13 points. McVay and his offensive game planning blew that one. Bill B out coached him. Brady made his statements if you think he is full of it and has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to playing football then ok it's your view. I think what he said is true. No more than that.

[fiestavike]

The best hope for this year is that Cousins can take what he does well and be 'Goffed' to his best season ever by KOC. I'm not predicting that, but that's the best case scenario.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Yeah I mean how could we possibly do that right? Just like how could the Chiefs possibly come up from 27 to 10 to land Patrick Mahomes? Just not even sure how that's possible

Yep all we need is for what looks like at least 6 teams who were planning on using next year's draft to improve their QB position (Carolina, NYG, NO, ATL, Detroit and Seattle) to not select or trade up with more ammunition.

KC got Mahomes because teams felt the QB draft class in 2017 was weak and planned to fill their QB needs in other ways similar to what happened this year. On top of that, it also took the Bears choosing Christian Ponder Jr over Mahomes for them to even have a shot at Mahomes. That isn't what is going to happen with the 2023 draft class and if we wanted to replicate what KC did, we should have drafted a QB this year.

lol pretty amazing that you somehow know what's going to happen in the 2023 draft I honestly dont care what you think. Your word of what's going to happen in the 2023 draft when we're currently in the 2022 offseason literally couldnt mean less. Regardless, you're just going to constantly disagree with anything regarding Kirk Cousins, what this organization does with him, etc. It's beyond tiring.

[StumpHunter]

Yep all we need is for what looks like at least 6 teams who were planning on using next year's draft to improve their QB position (Carolina, NYG, NO, ATL, Detroit and Seattle) to not select or trade up with more ammunition.

KC got Mahomes because teams felt the QB draft class in 2017 was weak and planned to fill their QB needs in other ways similar to what happened this year. On top of that, it also took the Bears choosing Christian Ponder Jr over Mahomes for them to even have a shot at Mahomes. That isn't what is going to happen with the 2023 draft class and if we wanted to replicate what KC did, we should have drafted a QB this year.

lol pretty amazing that you somehow know what's going to happen in the 2023 draft I honestly dont care what you think. Your word of what's going to happen in the 2023 draft when we're currently in the 2022 offseason literally couldnt mean less. Regardless, you're just going to constantly disagree with anything regarding Kirk Cousins, what this organization does with him, etc. It's beyond tiring.

Would it be easier or harder to draft the QBOTF with a higher or lower draft pick next year? Do you think most of the teams I listed will be looking for a new QB or content with their current one next year?

[JJBreaksRecords]

Yep all we need is for what looks like at least 6 teams who were planning on using next year's draft to improve their QB position (Carolina, NYG, NO, ATL, Detroit and Seattle) to not select or trade up with more ammunition.

KC got Mahomes because teams felt the QB draft class in 2017 was weak and planned to fill their QB needs in other ways similar to what happened this year. On top of that, it also took the Bears choosing Christian Ponder Jr over Mahomes for them to even have a shot at Mahomes. That isn't what is going to happen with the 2023 draft class and if we wanted to replicate what KC did, we should have drafted a QB this year.

lol pretty amazing that you somehow know what's going to happen in the 2023 draft I honestly dont care what you think. Your word of what's going to happen in the 2023 draft when we're currently in the 2022 offseason literally couldnt mean less. Regardless, you're just going to constantly disagree with anything regarding Kirk Cousins, what this organization does with him, etc. It's beyond tiring.

If you dont care what he thinks, why do you respond to his post so often? Simply because he isnt a Cousins fan (who I assume, like me, doesnt think Kirk can win the SB, or next)?

[VikingLord]

As one of those who doesn't feel we need to move on from Cousins my answer to what would make me change my mind is if I saw a decline in Cousins play. IMO he has played quite well for us so my mind isn't going to be changed until he isn't playing well for us. I see what Stafford, a very similar QB to Cousins, did with the Rams after being a perennial loser just by getting a better team. I'm feeling pretty good about our chances with Cousins. If Hunter and Smith can play healthy all season I see us as at minimum a 10 win team and likely better. That may not match the way you see things and that's OK.

I can understand your take on it, and I agree that the main thing that held the Vikings back last year (and probably the last 2 years) was more the defense than Cousins or the offense. If the defense improves and Cousins plays the same, I'd agree with you the Vikings should be a 10 win team and make the playoffs.

Just not convinced Cousins is a guy who gets them over the hump. He seems to lack that moxie or leadership factor. Not sure Stafford had that when he was with the Lions, so the change of scenery was probably a good thing for him (in addition to being on a better team overall). The only change of scenery for Cousins is a new head coach. Maybe that will be enough to finally get Cousins over the hump.