Post Draft thoughts

[StumpHunter]

The Vikings do not know more than the grand jury that indicted Ingram, the DA that charged him and the detectives that brought this case to the DA and I have yet to hear a good explanation of how a case got that far if it was all completely fabricated. Something that our GM owes fans and victims of sexual assault who see this as a team rewarding someone who only got off because his victims were too afraid or ashamed to testify. If he knows cold hard facts that make these little girls liars, lets hear them.

Cook and Lewis's cases are very different, with Cook not even being charged with anything and Lewis, who was at least an accomplice to murder getting off because he had a lot of money and could afford a good attorney. I feel very comfortable calling him a murderer, btw and do pretty much every time I talk about him.

Ok I mean I dont know what to tell you. We're fans sitting behind a computer screen. There are plenty of guys in their front office with a lot more information and did a lot more digging than we did. They clearly know something we dont otherwise I highly doubt KAM takes that risk in his first year as GM.

Why do you think that when virtually no one is calling him out on this pick? When saying "we looked into it" is good enough for most fans?

[allday1991]

Because every accusation of sexual assault is taken seriously but especially in the heat of the MeToo movement that was going on at the time. The fact that it was dropped in 2018, when everybody was being (rightfully) forced to take these kinds of charges very seriously, makes me think there was no case.

There was no settlement paid and all charges were dropped. There's no reason to believe after waiting 3-4 years to come forward, with women coming forward and having major victories against powerful men that committed those types of crimes all over the country, that they were too afraid or ashamed to testify.

Without knowing anything about the case, you're making accusations based on nothing. Just because he doesn't want to go into what happened doesn't make him guilty.

If you talked to a victim of sexual assault who did come forward, you would know that the victims are absolutely grilled by detectives, psychologist and the DA before any charges are even filed. It is an awful process where detectives go in assuming the woman is lying, regardless of what you think the impact MeToo had on the justice system. The system is incredibly hard on victims, intentionally, with the premise that it weeds out the women who are lying, but with the reality that rapist end up getting away with their crimes because the victims finally just cave in and want the pain of having to relive the assault go away. If a crime of this level made it all the way past a grand jury, something that not even Watson's dozens of accusers could get past, it means the guy was guilty the vast majority of times. That is with adults, and with children it is almost unheard of for a young person like that to be able to lie to the point that a DA would take it the case this far.

So no, #MeToo and Kwesi saying "he looked into it" isn't good enough for me and the only reason it is for some people is because they don't want to believe their team intentionally drafted a rapist.

Do you have any personal experience with this? I can tell you from personal experience courts are way easier on woman. This can be proven from sentence disparities to taking assasult/rape cases from woman more seriously. How did it get this far? Simple when there is no evidence the D/A drags the process out hoping the accused will give in and admit. My ex girlfriend had me kicked out of my final year of high school and dragged all the way up to day before witnesses were cross examined with zero physical evidence, the only evidence she had was telling her best friend about it over the phone. I lost a year of school and 10k on a lawyer cause of hear say. What chances do you think two men could take each other that far in court with zero evidence? Take the pill man.

[StumpHunter]

Something that our GM owes fans and victims of sexual assault who see this as a team rewarding someone who only got off because his victims were too afraid or ashamed to testify. If he knows cold hard facts that make these little girls liars, lets hear them.

This right here is what is wrong with American sports. In fact, it's a big part of what's wrong with America.

The GM of the Minnesota Vikings owes you nothing. The DA on the case owes you nothing. The police owe you nothing, and the grand jury owes you nothing. You are not entitled to all the facts just because you think you should be.

Yep wanting an explanation of why my favorite team drafted a guy accused of raping two little girls is what is wrong with America.

The plain simple truth is that maybe Ingram got away with something. Or maybe these girls ARE liars. Or maybe their parents were looking for a tidy settlement from a kid who would someday be rich.

So the parents decided to destroy his career before it even began to make money? Makes sense. Or how about this, the sisters were pressured into silence when their parents realized they could make a lot of money off of this guy when some team made him a millionaire if they didn't testify in a trial and put him behind bars? A little more logical than what you put forward, no?

Or maybe it was kids playing a game that went too far. Ingram was FIFTEEN. It's not like he had a fully matured adult mind. Have you ever raised a 15-year-old? For most 15-year-olds, the capacity for rational thought and emotional self control barely register on a scale of 1 to 1,000. That doesn't excuse violent crime, but you can't prove one was committed here because actual law enforcement and legal professionals couldn't prove it.

I don't actually think I need to dignify this with a response. He was charged with 2 counts of aggravated sexual assault, it was not a game, and being 16 does not excuse raping two sisters over a year long period.

The legal standard for criminal cases in this country is "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt." Amazing how so many people believe it ought to be "guilty because I say he is."

I don't believe I have called for him to be incarcerated without a fair trial where this point would actually mean anything.

People need to take a step back and really think about what they are defending here. If the Vikings are this important to you that you will ignore them drafting someone who probably raped two girls, or worse than ignoring, defend the rapist's actions, then you really need reassess your life.

[psjordan]

Especially given that [Kwesi] couldnt even pull in a first round pick in 2023 in that Lions deal and didnt get near the value he should have.

This is how myths start.

Of course you are free to think what you want, but not much in the way of charts supports ripping Kwesi for "not getting near the value he should have" in the DET deal:

https://apple.news/Ao3HvlrMqR1ShA7_kvLUzPg

[Pondering Her Percy]

And as I said before, any time he did get one in a deal, it was a throw in pick. For example, trading Harvin. He gets what he wants (a 1st round pick and 3rd) and has them throw in a 7th. Maximizing his value. The Seahawks were doing that deal regardless, so why not ask them for one more pick. I spoke on this before, I do the same damn thing in fantasy football. I get what I want from the person and then say "throw in an 8th round pick and we got a deal". 99.9% of the time the person still makes the deal. So why not squeeze out everything you can?

Or another example, 2017 trade down from 104 to 108 and gain a 7th. It's 4 spots in the middle of the 4th round (where there's probably a plethora of players you'd take a chance on at that point), moving down 4 spots doesnt do anything to hurt you. In 2019 you go from 92 down to 93 and gain a 7th. Again, I'd make the trade too. Squeeze any penny out you can.

His 7th round picks that were acquired via trade were from minor trade downs or throw ins after he got the compensation he wanted. Someone enlighten me why that was a problem? Why is that one of the biggest things Vikings fans rip on him for?

And I was thinking this the other day.... I find it funny that a lot of fans out there that hated Spielman for all these reasons are praising Kwesi for this draft. If this was a Rick Spielman draft, many would be in an uproar. Especially given that we couldnt even pull in a first round pick in 2023 in that Lions deal and didnt get near the value he should have.

I'm also not able to do the digging currently due to work, but I feel confident that the date will show that he liked to trade out of the mid rounds (3rd to 6th) down to 7th an awful lot. He would do this even when there were great players on the board at positions of need.

Again, I'm looking at all his draft trades since 2014. That's just simply not true. I literally just said what he did. Trade down a few picks in middle to late rounds and get a 7th as a throw in. If a team comes to you and wants to trade up 4 spots in the 4th round and will throw you a 7th round pick for it, why would you not do that? Especially if there are multiple players you like at that spot. It's literally a no brainer.

And you're saying he's trading OUT of the 3rd and DOWN to the 7th..... what? That literally never happened. Ever. One of his trades would read similar to:

Vikings trade: 3rd round pick (100)

Jets trade: 4th round pick (104) and a 7th round pick

I dont look at the round of these trades. I look at the pick number. Because if the 3rd round goes into the 4th round at lets say pick 102-103 and we trade pick 100 for pick 104, yeah we technically traded a 3rd round pick for a 4th round pick but when they are only 4 picks apart, does it really matter? It's about the pick number. Like would anyone really not take that deal above? I would 10 times out of 10 unless there was someone at pick 100 that I REALLY wanted that fell to me. And adding that 7th is a free chance at finding an impact player. Think of it like the lottery. If someone offered you a free $1 lottery ticket, would you take it? I know I would. Chances are you arent going to win, and even if you do, they dont pay out for shi#. But there's still a small chance of a home run. So you take it 10 times out of 10. The difference in player talent from pick 100 to pick 104 is literally 0.

And passed on "great players" for 7th rounders huh? Care to share who? I'm all ears.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Especially given that [Kwesi] couldnt even pull in a first round pick in 2023 in that Lions deal and didnt get near the value he should have.

This is how myths start.

Of course you are free to think what you want, but not much in the way of charts supports ripping Kwesi for "not getting near the value he should have" in the DET deal:

https://apple.news/Ao3HvlrMqR1ShA7_kvLUzPg

It's not how myths start. When you compare that deal to previous deals similar, we got fleeced. The Bears went from 20 down to 11 and gave up a 1st the following year. The Chiefs went from 27 to 10 and gave up a 1st the following year. We dropped 20 spots and out of a prime position and simply swapped 2nds and gained a 3rd. Again, I dont dislike the actual picks made. I just thought we could've gotten a lot more value than that. Trading down from 12 to 32 is a LONGGG way.

[Pondering Her Percy]

This right here is what is wrong with American sports. In fact, it's a big part of what's wrong with America.

The GM of the Minnesota Vikings owes you nothing. The DA on the case owes you nothing. The police owe you nothing, and the grand jury owes you nothing. You are not entitled to all the facts just because you think you should be.

Yep wanting an explanation of why my favorite team drafted a guy accused of raping two little girls is what is wrong with America.

The plain simple truth is that maybe Ingram got away with something. Or maybe these girls ARE liars. Or maybe their parents were looking for a tidy settlement from a kid who would someday be rich.

So the parents decided to destroy his career before it even began to make money? Makes sense. Or how about this, the sisters were pressured into silence when their parents realized they could make a lot of money off of this guy when some team made him a millionaire if they didn't testify in a trial and put him behind bars? A little more logical than what you put forward, no?

Or maybe it was kids playing a game that went too far. Ingram was FIFTEEN. It's not like he had a fully matured adult mind. Have you ever raised a 15-year-old? For most 15-year-olds, the capacity for rational thought and emotional self control barely register on a scale of 1 to 1,000. That doesn't excuse violent crime, but you can't prove one was committed here because actual law enforcement and legal professionals couldn't prove it.

I don't actually think I need to dignify this with a response. He was charged with 2 counts of aggravated sexual assault, it was not a game, and being 16 does not excuse raping two sisters over a year long period.

The legal standard for criminal cases in this country is "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt." Amazing how so many people believe it ought to be "guilty because I say he is."

I don't believe I have called for him to be incarcerated without a fair trial where this point would actually mean anything.

People need to take a step back and really think about what they are defending here. If the Vikings are this important to you that you will ignore them drafting someone who probably raped two girls, or worse than ignoring, defend the rapist's actions, then you really need reassess your life.

Why do you need an explanation though? What makes you think you are entitled to one?

[vikeinmontana]

Don't think I've ever seen this much speculation in a single thread before....

[Texas Vike]

I'm also not able to do the digging currently due to work, but I feel confident that the date will show that he liked to trade out of the mid rounds (3rd to 6th) down to 7th an awful lot. He would do this even when there were great players on the board at positions of need.

Again, I'm looking at all his draft trades since 2014. That's just simply not true. I literally just said what he did. Trade down a few picks in middle to late rounds and get a 7th as a throw in. If a team comes to you and wants to trade up 4 spots in the 4th round and will throw you a 7th round pick for it, why would you not do that? Especially if there are multiple players you like at that spot. It's literally a no brainer.

And you're saying he's trading OUT of the 3rd and DOWN to the 7th..... what? That literally never happened. Ever. One of his trades would read similar to:

Vikings trade: 3rd round pick (100)

Jets trade: 4th round pick (104) and a 7th round pick

I dont look at the round of these trades. I look at the pick number. Because if the 3rd round goes into the 4th round at lets say pick 102-103 and we trade pick 100 for pick 104, yeah we technically traded a 3rd round pick for a 4th round pick but when they are only 4 picks apart, does it really matter? It's about the pick number. Like would anyone really not take that deal above? I would 10 times out of 10 unless there was someone at pick 100 that I REALLY wanted that fell to me. And adding that 7th is a free chance at finding an impact player. Think of it like the lottery. If someone offered you a free $1 lottery ticket, would you take it? I know I would. Chances are you arent going to win, and even if you do, they dont pay out for shi#. But there's still a small chance of a home run. So you take it 10 times out of 10. The difference in player talent from pick 100 to pick 104 is literally 0.

And passed on "great players" for 7th rounders huh? Care to share who? I'm all ears.

Look, you're WAY too emotionally charged about this issue for me to really want to engage with you on it. I am confident that you have an entrenched opinion, and no amount of objective evidence will sway you from it. As I stated, I'm too busy (and frankly don't care enough) to gather all of the data, but my very first search brought up this article from 2019, which I believe is a more complete illustration of RS's MO:

The Vikings made multiple moves in the third round of the 2019 NFL Draft on Friday.

First, Minnesota traded its 81st overall pick to Detroit in exchange for the Lions 88th overall pick and the 204th overall pick, which will fall in the sixth round.

Detroit selected Boston College safety Will Harris at No. 81.

The Vikings then sent the 88th overall pick and the 209th (sixth round) to Seattle in exchange for the 92nd and 159th overall selections. The 159th will fall in the fifth round.

Seattle selected Utah LB Cody Barton at 88th.

Vikings General Manager Rick Spielman couldn't resist another trade, or another, however. He agreed to send the 92nd selection to the New York Jets to acquire the 93rd and 217th overall picks.

The Jets selected Southern Cal T Chuma Edoga 92nd.

Fourthly, Spielman dealt the 93rd pick to Baltimore for the 102nd (third round), 191st and 193rd (both in the sixth round)

The Ravens tabbed Notre Dame WR Miles Boykin.

The deals are the 27th, 28th, 29th and 30th draft-day trades the Vikings have made since Spielman became GM in 2012.

https://www.vikings.com/news/vikings-ma ... -3rd-round

Taking in the whole picture, he didn't ultimately just go down a few spots, he went from 81 to 102, and along the way picked up a lot of 6th and 7th rounders. Now, if you want to argue that this approach is intelligent, fine. I don't like it. But let's just clarify that this is the kind of thing that RS did and that it isn't some myth.

[VikingsVictorious]

This is how myths start.

Of course you are free to think what you want, but not much in the way of charts supports ripping Kwesi for "not getting near the value he should have" in the DET deal:

https://apple.news/Ao3HvlrMqR1ShA7_kvLUzPg

It's not how myths start. When you compare that deal to previous deals similar, we got fleeced. The Bears went from 20 down to 11 and gave up a 1st the following year. The Chiefs went from 27 to 10 and gave up a 1st the following year. We dropped 20 spots and out of a prime position and simply swapped 2nds and gained a 3rd. Again, I dont dislike the actual picks made. I just thought we could've gotten a lot more value than that. Trading down from 12 to 32 is a LONGGG way.

Historically speaking you are correct PHP. However, I know the Bears one was for a QB and it's different. Is the Chiefs one you're talking about for Majomes or what. I hated that trade down with Detroit. I thought we should easily get better value. However, maybe Kwesi did the best he could have. We don't know. I know I would rather have Cine and Booth than who I would have drafted at 12 Jordan Davis. However, if Davis ends up being the many time pro bowl player I think he can be it could prove a mistake.

[VikingsVictorious]

Again, I'm looking at all his draft trades since 2014. That's just simply not true. I literally just said what he did. Trade down a few picks in middle to late rounds and get a 7th as a throw in. If a team comes to you and wants to trade up 4 spots in the 4th round and will throw you a 7th round pick for it, why would you not do that? Especially if there are multiple players you like at that spot. It's literally a no brainer.

And you're saying he's trading OUT of the 3rd and DOWN to the 7th..... what? That literally never happened. Ever. One of his trades would read similar to:

Vikings trade: 3rd round pick (100)

Jets trade: 4th round pick (104) and a 7th round pick

I dont look at the round of these trades. I look at the pick number. Because if the 3rd round goes into the 4th round at lets say pick 102-103 and we trade pick 100 for pick 104, yeah we technically traded a 3rd round pick for a 4th round pick but when they are only 4 picks apart, does it really matter? It's about the pick number. Like would anyone really not take that deal above? I would 10 times out of 10 unless there was someone at pick 100 that I REALLY wanted that fell to me. And adding that 7th is a free chance at finding an impact player. Think of it like the lottery. If someone offered you a free $1 lottery ticket, would you take it? I know I would. Chances are you arent going to win, and even if you do, they dont pay out for shi#. But there's still a small chance of a home run. So you take it 10 times out of 10. The difference in player talent from pick 100 to pick 104 is literally 0.

And passed on "great players" for 7th rounders huh? Care to share who? I'm all ears.

Look, you're WAY too emotionally charged about this issue for me to really want to engage with you on it. I am confident that you have an entrenched opinion, and no amount of objective evidence will sway you from it. As I stated, I'm too busy (and frankly don't care enough) to gather all of the data, but my very first search brought up this article from 2019, which I believe is a more complete illustration of RS's MO:

The Vikings made multiple moves in the third round of the 2019 NFL Draft on Friday.

First, Minnesota traded its 81st overall pick to Detroit in exchange for the Lions 88th overall pick and the 204th overall pick, which will fall in the sixth round.

Detroit selected Boston College safety Will Harris at No. 81.

The Vikings then sent the 88th overall pick and the 209th (sixth round) to Seattle in exchange for the 92nd and 159th overall selections. The 159th will fall in the fifth round.

Seattle selected Utah LB Cody Barton at 88th.

Vikings General Manager Rick Spielman couldn't resist another trade, or another, however. He agreed to send the 92nd selection to the New York Jets to acquire the 93rd and 217th overall picks.

The Jets selected Southern Cal T Chuma Edoga 92nd.

Fourthly, Spielman dealt the 93rd pick to Baltimore for the 102nd (third round), 191st and 193rd (both in the sixth round)

The Ravens tabbed Notre Dame WR Miles Boykin.

The deals are the 27th, 28th, 29th and 30th draft-day trades the Vikings have made since Spielman became GM in 2012.

https://www.vikings.com/news/vikings-ma ... -3rd-round

Taking in the whole picture, he didn't ultimately just go down a few spots, he went from 81 to 102, and along the way picked up a lot of 6th and 7th rounders. Now, if you want to argue that this approach is intelligent, fine. I don't like it. But let's just clarify that this is the kind of thing that RS did and that it isn't some myth.

You are referring to the legendary 4 trades involving the pick that was eventually used for Mattison. It seems we kept acquiring additional picks, none in the 7th round if I read you right, and got the player we wanted all along. That was probably Spielman's finest hour.

[VikingsVictorious]

Stump's accusations that those who are giving the benefit of the doubt to Ingram only because the Vikings picked him is flat out insulting and to me would elicit a fight with a lot of people. I'm not a fighter so not with me. However, I'm very angry with him. I have him blocked once again and this time it will be permanent. I would give Ingram the benefit of the doubt no matter who picked him. How dare Stump act like he knows our motives.

[Cliff]

If you talked to a victim of sexual assault who did come forward, you would know that the victims are absolutely grilled by detectives, psychologist and the DA before any charges are even filed. It is an awful process where detectives go in assuming the woman is lying, regardless of what you think the impact MeToo had on the justice system. The system is incredibly hard on victims, intentionally, with the premise that it weeds out the women who are lying, but with the reality that rapist end up getting away with their crimes because the victims finally just cave in and want the pain of having to relive the assault go away. If a crime of this level made it all the way past a grand jury, something that not even Watson's dozens of accusers could get past, it means the guy was guilty the vast majority of times. That is with adults, and with children it is almost unheard of for a young person like that to be able to lie to the point that a DA would take it the case this far.

So no, #MeToo and Kwesi saying "he looked into it" isn't good enough for me and the only reason it is for some people is because they don't want to believe their team intentionally drafted a rapist.

So in your opinion everyone accused of being a rapist *is* a rapist and should be treated as such? Or just cases that make it to a grand jury? Is it your opinion every that every case which involves a grand jury means the person is guilty?

The fact is that you have no facts. You've judged someone guilty because they almost went to trial.

It's got nothing to do with the Vikings drafting him except it's more proof that nothing was found in his background. Do you really think the Vikings are going to risk a scandal over a second round draft pick?

How many public and private investigations and processes does he need to go through for you to be satisfied? Is there anything he could actually do to appease you? If so, what?

[Texas Vike]

Look, you're WAY too emotionally charged about this issue for me to really want to engage with you on it. I am confident that you have an entrenched opinion, and no amount of objective evidence will sway you from it. As I stated, I'm too busy (and frankly don't care enough) to gather all of the data, but my very first search brought up this article from 2019, which I believe is a more complete illustration of RS's MO:

https://www.vikings.com/news/vikings-ma ... -3rd-round

Taking in the whole picture, he didn't ultimately just go down a few spots, he went from 81 to 102, and along the way picked up a lot of 6th and 7th rounders. Now, if you want to argue that this approach is intelligent, fine. I don't like it. But let's just clarify that this is the kind of thing that RS did and that it isn't some myth.

You are referring to the legendary 4 trades involving the pick that was eventually used for Mattison. It seems we kept acquiring additional picks, none in the 7th round if I read you right, and got the player we wanted all along. That was probably Spielman's finest hour.

Not quite right, 217 was a 7th rounder, with which we chose Kris Boyd. See your interpretation of 'legendary' is different from mine. And that's fine. My whole initial point was this: Kwesi traded up and down in his first draft, which made some folks express the idea that he was exactly the same as Rick. I can see why folks would say that, but Kwesi held on to his mid round picks and made them. I really don't want to get bogged down in this argument, so I'm done with it. It just doesn't matter too much to me.

Some folks liked (or loved) Rick, I was glad they moved on. Time will tell if KAM is any better. I was very happy to see us move on from Zimmer, and look forward to seeing what KOC can do.

[psjordan]

The Bears went from 20 down to 11 and gave up a 1st the following year. The Chiefs went from 27 to 10 and gave up a 1st the following year.

Different years, different drafts, different draft classes.

I just thought we could've gotten a lot more value than that. Trading down from 12 to 32 is a LONGGG way.

Nothing wrong with you feeling we could've gotten more. My point was no "recent draft equivalency charts" say that Kwesi should have, all else being equal. COULD have? Sure, witness the trade with GB. We won that one coming and going on all charts.

And the article is all about the value of picks and not the players. What we did with the picks is a whole nuther story.

But in the end, yes I do think a lot of "Kwesi got fleeced by the Lions!" type chatter does in fact lay the groundwork for the same unfounded conversations we are having about RS in this thread.

Trust me, someone in three years will be pulling the charts and posting them in a thread to lend credence to the fact we actually did not get fleeced by the Lions.