WRs in Draft

[J. Kapp 11]

I’m not talking about other GMs. I’m talking about Rick Spielman. And no, I don’t believe he’s given up on the season, as so many of you are assuming.

What have we actually lost? Diggs. That’s a hit. Beyond that, what? Rhodes? Wow, big loss, a corner who gave up an 80% completion rate. Waynes? Most of you didn’t want him. Griffen? He’s good, but not what he was. Not to mention he could actually return. Joseph? Pierce is a younger version and just as good. Josh Kline? Please.

We also have 13 draft picks ... 5 in the top 105.

There is absolutely no way that Spielman and Zimmer see this as a rebuilding year. They’ve given no indication of such.

Here's how I look at it. Did we have a realistic expectation to win the Superbowl last year? I think its pretty clear the answer was no. We got man handled against physically superior teams all year, even inferior teams who were physical beat up on the Vikings...see Chicago. I would hope that if they believed they were contenders last year, they have been dispossessed of such notions heading into a year where they will have less talent than they did before. If the goal is to remain relevant, they are in position to do that. Maybe they get a winning record. They are not contenders, and if they don't know it, it doesn't bode well for this franchise.

I couldn't disagree more about last season.

First and goal at the Packer 8 with 5 minutes to play at Lambeau, and we lose because Kirk Cousins has a brain fart. Yes, he tends to pass brain gas when the pressure's on, but if he doesn't throw that stupid interception, it's very likely we win that game. We played well enough to win that game and were in position late to win it. That makes us 11-5.

We also lost to Chicago in the final week of the season when the Bears played their starters and we sat most of ours. Yet we lost by a whopping 2 points. That's a game we gave away. Win that, and we're 12-4.

Let me be clear. That's not to say we SHOULD have finished 12-4. I'm saying we PLAYED WELL ENOUGH to win 12 games. And that's not even counting the fact that we certainly were in position to beat both KC and Seattle. Or that Adam Thielen missed the better part of 7 games and wasn't himself until the New Orleans game. Or that Dalvin missed more than 2 games, including the Green Bay debacle at the Bank.

And yes, I realize there were games we won that we could have lost, such as the Denver game. Again, all I'm saying is that the 2019 Vikings played well enough to win 12 games.

If the GM and coach of a 12-win team are sitting there going, "We're not really contenders," then they shouldn't have their jobs.

[fiestavike]

Here's how I look at it. Did we have a realistic expectation to win the Superbowl last year? I think its pretty clear the answer was no. We got man handled against physically superior teams all year, even inferior teams who were physical beat up on the Vikings...see Chicago. I would hope that if they believed they were contenders last year, they have been dispossessed of such notions heading into a year where they will have less talent than they did before. If the goal is to remain relevant, they are in position to do that. Maybe they get a winning record. They are not contenders, and if they don't know it, it doesn't bode well for this franchise.

I couldn't disagree more about last season.

First and goal at the Packer 8 with 5 minutes to play at Lambeau, and we lose because Kirk Cousins has a brain fart. Yes, he tends to pass brain gas when the pressure's on, but if he doesn't throw that stupid interception, it's very likely we win that game. We played well enough to win that game and were in position late to win it. That makes us 11-5.

We also lost to Chicago in the final week of the season when the Bears played their starters and we sat most of ours. Yet we lost by a whopping 2 points. That's a game we gave away. Win that, and we're 12-4.

Let me be clear. That's not to say we SHOULD have finished 12-4. I'm saying we PLAYED WELL ENOUGH to win 12 games. And that's not even counting the fact that we certainly were in position to beat both KC and Seattle. Or that Adam Thielen missed the better part of 7 games and wasn't himself until the New Orleans game. Or that Dalvin missed more than 2 games, including the Green Bay debacle at the Bank.

And yes, I realize there were games we won that we could have lost, such as the Denver game. Again, all I'm saying is that the 2019 Vikings played well enough to win 12 games.

If the GM and coach of a 12-win team are sitting there going, "We're not really contenders," then they shouldn't have their jobs.

Fair enough. We are going to disagree. My sense is that if the GM and coach of the vikings are looking at this team now and thinking "we are really contenders", then they shouldn't have their jobs.

[VikingLord]

Reiff is only costing us 8.8 million for this year and that is a bargain for a solid LT. I'm seeing us draft one OG to start early in the draft. Most likely one of our 1st three picks. Then we want to groom somebody to take over for Reiff next year when he costs us a lot more. Hopefully both of those can be covered by the same player and that player is hopefully Tristan Wirfs.

Wirfs is an intriguing choice and he could in theory start as a guard and shift over to tackle, so I wouldn't be disappointed if Spielman goes that way. But do you think Wirfs is still going to be available even at #22? Most mocks I've seen have him going top 15.

[VikingLord]

If the GM and coach of a 12-win team are sitting there going, "We're not really contenders," then they shouldn't have their jobs.

I think the Vikings had every reason to expect to be in the Superbowl hunt at the start of last year. I certainly thought they were given the offseason moves they made to hold the defense together and the offensive talent they had. Yes, the OL had some question marks, but going into the season I don't think any other aspect of the team save maybe special teams was considered one.

How it went from there even varied. They were dominant to start the season. Up to the game against the Packers they looked amazing. Then they tripped against the Packers and the chinks in their armor started to show up. But even after that they put on some amazing performances, especially on offense. There was a stretch where Cousins was being talked about as an MVP candidate IIRC.

One thing that last year's team showed consistently, though, was that they usually found a way to shoot themselves in the foot against the better teams they faced. They did it all year. They were competitive in those games, but if a key mistake was made or an important opportunity was missed it was usually the Vikings on the wrong side of the play.

Going into this season, I can't say they are in the Superbowl hunt. Lots of turnover on defense no matter what they do (that might not be a terrible thing, but it is an unknown as to the result of that) coupled with what I think everyone can agree are key questions/deficiencies on the offensive side of the ball as well, ranging from a questionable interior OL to WR to even RB. Add to questions about the ceiling of the QB, and this year's Vikings are probably not in the legit Superbowl conversation.

They can change that though. I would love to be pleasantly surprised.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Good post VL, I'll address some stuff below...

With all of the focus on drafting a WR early and a CB early (not saying you are proposing that, just that I see a lot of that in pre-draft mocks and other comments), where does fixing those gaping holes on the OL place as a priority?

The way I see it, the Vikings have two gaping holes at both guard positions and a liability at the left tackle position. That means 3 out of 5 OL spots could use an upgrade.

There are some young guys on the team who could ostensibly step up and meet those needs. It could happen, and if it does, that would be fantastic. But even if that does happen I don't think Spielman can draft in this upcoming draft making any assumptions about that. Unless he has strong indications otherwise, he almost has to go into this year's entire offseason including this draft assuming the answers at those positions aren't on the team and he has to acquire them.

So where in the big scheme of things do those OL fixes come into play? Free agency is probably not going to help much. To get a real answer, like a Trent Williams to replace Reiff, will cost Spielman some draft capital. How much would that be and is he willing to part with it? Any other free agent guard, for example, is probably at best a stopgap that wouldn't likely be an improvement over what the Vikings had at those positions last year.

I know I mentioned somewhere on the board (not sure which thread) regarding this. Both guard spots are clearly massive holes like you mentioned. I've never been a Reiff fan either. Bradbury I'm willing to give another 2 years or so and O'Neill is a stud IMO.

As for guard, our sweet spot is going to be in the middle rounds. The only viable guard prospect in the first round is Wirfs IMO. I dont even think there are many options in the 2nd round. From rounds 3-5 there should be a plethora or solid guards. I wouldnt be surprised if we see only Wirfs go in the first two rounds. And Wirfs is a tackle but many predict he will move to guard. But starting in round 3, there should be plenty. You will have guys like:
Solomon Kindley (Georgia)
Jonah Jackson (Ohio St.)
Logan Stenberg (Kentucky)
Shane Lemieux (Oregon)
Netane Muti (Fresno St.)
Ben Bartch (St. Johns)
Damien Lewis (LSU)
Hakeem Adeniji (Kansas)
Ben Bredeson (Michigan)
Calvin Thockmorton (Oregon)
Michael Onwenu (Michigan)

All of these guys very well could be available at the start of the 3rd round. With Wirfs being the only guard to go, we could have the pick of the litter come round 3 and beyond. Every one of those guys listed above have a shot at being plug and play guards. Some fit out scheme like Jonah Jackson and others dont like Logan Stenberg. But I'm in no rush to go after guard unless it's Wirfs for this reason. The middle rounds are going to be loaded with them. Not that they arent any good and that's why they fell there but just the top talent at all these other positions in this draft pushing these guards down the line.

As for Reiff at tackle, I'm still optimistic something happens with Trent Williams and it shouldnt cost us much at all in terms of draft capital. If not, then taking a tackle earlier on might be the option and move Reiff to guard (which I am not a fan of) or leave Reiff for another year and go after a LT in 2021

Improvement then has to come via the draft, so where in the draft is Spielman going to prioritize those positions compared to his other needs, and if he does prioritize them, is he going to reach for players at those spots rather than go after better players who might be on the board when the Vikings are on the clock?

In most of the simulated mocks I've done, I find myself focusing on OL/DL early. I'm taking obvious offensive or defensive skill position players early if obvious steals fall to me, but for the most part I can't help but take appropriate OL/DL players in the first 3 rounds of most of the drafts I've run knowing how shaky both units were for most of last year. Yes, adding Pierce helps the interior DL, but the Vikings still need someone effective beside and behind him. Getting Griffen back might help at RDE, but Griffen wasn't great against the run last year and I don't see why he'd be any better against it this year if they do get him back. Even adding Pierce and even getting Griffen back the Vikes still need 2 DL in this draft. 2 DL who have a legit chance of starting sooner than later and who can become effective if not great players. Those guys aren't going to come later in the draft.

When it comes to trusting some young guys on this roster, I think we have to look at Samia or Udoh on the offensive side and Mata'afa or Watts on the defensive side. If we were to leave a position "empty" following the draft, I'd rather it be 3 tech or one guard spot and have one of these guys fill it. Like with CB, we have nothing there. We dont have any young guys ready to step in IMO. OL and DL we do somewhat. Not saying we should leave these one guard spot and 3 tech vacant by any means. It's just if they werent addressed early I'm okay with it.

I'm actually not worried about WR at all. Losing Diggs was addition by subtraction IMHO. Kubiak can simply shuffle things around and make better use of his TEs, of which the Vikings are rich. Plus, it's such a deep WR class that I'm banking on effective and maybe even really great prospects still being on the board as late as the 6th and 7th rounds.

If we dont go after Jeudy, Lamb, Ruggs, Jefferson or Reagor, I'd wait until the 2nd round. I also think that if Tajae Sharpe gets some solid playing time, you're going to see him produce.

As far as CB goes, this is such a flat CB class that in my view the chances of getting a good one (or two) is roughly the same in the 4th-5th rounds as going after one in the 1st or 2nd rounds. The guys who go earlier are going to tick the physical boxes (e.g. fast 40 times at the combine, height, weight, etc.), but there will be guys who don't tick those boxes who still put some skills on tape in their college careers and who will be sitting waiting to hear their names called after the workout warriors are off the board. Those are the players I'd like to see Spielman targeting later in this draft.

My top 3 (in our range) are CJ Henderson, Kristian Fulton, and Jaylon Johnson. We need guys with size and physicality though. I think this position is a must in the top 2 round but that's just me.

But back to your original comment, what I'm trying to say is that I don't see the same depth or possibility to address the OL/DL concerns later in this draft. While the WR/DB pools are deep and relatively flat, the same can't be said about the OL/DL pools. The players in those position groups with real potential to get on the field next season and be stars in future seasons are going to be gone in the first 3 rounds this year. One or two might slip into the later rounds but finding those will be pure luck. The guys who are more educated guesses are going to demand higher picks.

I will be very interested to see if Spielman sees it the way I do and his choices in this draft reflect that.

Those positions might be deep but we cant just draft a guard in the first because it's a bigger need. It's all going to be about trends and what positions are getting gobbled up at the time. The fact their might be literally one guard off the board by the 3rd round gives us no choice but to wait. I think you make some great points. Spielman is very smart during the draft IMO. They do a great job of preparing and gauging where players will go and what positions are stronger than others. I think we will be just fine and I'm stoked

[VikingsVictorious]

Reiff is only costing us 8.8 million for this year and that is a bargain for a solid LT. I'm seeing us draft one OG to start early in the draft. Most likely one of our 1st three picks. Then we want to groom somebody to take over for Reiff next year when he costs us a lot more. Hopefully both of those can be covered by the same player and that player is hopefully Tristan Wirfs.

Wirfs is an intriguing choice and he could in theory start as a guard and shift over to tackle, so I wouldn't be disappointed if Spielman goes that way. But do you think Wirfs is still going to be available even at #22? Most mocks I've seen have him going top 15.

NO we need to trade up for him. He might just be worth both of our firsts. If we can move up with a first and 2nd it's a no brainer.

[fiestavike]

Wirfs is an intriguing choice and he could in theory start as a guard and shift over to tackle, so I wouldn't be disappointed if Spielman goes that way. But do you think Wirfs is still going to be available even at #22? Most mocks I've seen have him going top 15.

NO we need to trade up for him. He might just be worth both of our firsts. If we can move up with a first and 2nd it's a no brainer.

Wow, bold move. I don't see a trade up including both firsts unless its for a QB (which we've already discussed). A trade back is far more likely, but I admit if you could trade up and grab Wirfs without using both 1st rounders, then grab Ruiz at 25, I would not be terribly upset. I would love to see the OL built into a dominant unit.

[VikingsVictorious]

NO we need to trade up for him. He might just be worth both of our firsts. If we can move up with a first and 2nd it's a no brainer.

Wow, bold move. I don't see a trade up including both firsts unless its for a QB (which we've already discussed). A trade back is far more likely, but I admit if you could trade up and grab Wirfs without using both 1st rounders, then grab Ruiz at 25, I would not be terribly upset. I would love to see the OL built into a dominant unit.

I'm not certain I would trade both our firsts, but I'd give it a long hard look.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Wow, bold move. I don't see a trade up including both firsts unless its for a QB (which we've already discussed). A trade back is far more likely, but I admit if you could trade up and grab Wirfs without using both 1st rounders, then grab Ruiz at 25, I would not be terribly upset. I would love to see the OL built into a dominant unit.

I'm not certain I would trade both our firsts, but I'd give it a long hard look.

Yeah I don’t think I could trade both. I say trade up from 22 for a stud and trade down from 25

[J. Kapp 11]

I'm not certain I would trade both our firsts, but I'd give it a long hard look.

Yeah I don’t think I could trade both. I say trade up from 22 for a stud and trade down from 25

Totally agree, PHP.

In another thread, I was lambasted for being OK with a trade of both picks and Reiff for Trent Williams and the No. 2 pick. In that scenario, we'd get BOTH an all-pro left tackle AND a potentially franchise-altering player.

Yet now we say it's OK to trade both first-round picks for Tristan Wirfs?

Look, Wirfs had a monster combine and a great career at a school that consistently produces solid offensive linemen. He's likely to be a really good player, maybe even an all-pro. But seriously, that's a LOT of draft capital for a guy who's probably top-15, maybe top-10 for teams that fall in love with his combine numbers, and projects as a RT or guard.

And please note: I live in Iowa, and I'm a Hawk fan. I love Wirfs, and if we were in a position to draft him, I'd be all-in. But I'm not sure I'm all-in on trading two first-round picks for one player. Even the Williams scenario above gives me pause, although I wouldn't hate it. You risk replaying the Herschel Walker trade when you start dealing multiple firsts.

[VikingsVictorious]

Yeah I don’t think I could trade both. I say trade up from 22 for a stud and trade down from 25

Totally agree, PHP.

In another thread, I was lambasted for being OK with a trade of both picks and Reiff for Trent Williams and the No. 2 pick. In that scenario, we'd get BOTH an all-pro left tackle AND a potentially franchise-altering player.

Yet now we say it's OK to trade both first-round picks for Tristan Wirfs?

Look, Wirfs had a monster combine and a great career at a school that consistently produces solid offensive linemen. He's likely to be a really good player, maybe even an all-pro. But seriously, that's a LOT of draft capital for a guy who's probably top-15, maybe top-10 for teams that fall in love with his combine numbers, and projects as a RT or guard.

And please note: I live in Iowa, and I'm a Hawk fan. I love Wirfs, and if we were in a position to draft him, I'd be all-in. But I'm not sure I'm all-in on trading two first-round picks for one player. Even the Williams scenario above gives me pause, although I wouldn't hate it. You risk replaying the Herschel Walker trade when you start dealing multiple firsts.

Williams is 32 is it with an injury history. Wirfs is 22 without. That's a big difference. It would be real interesting though to get Williams and Chase Young. Could have two all pros in the trenches for years to come.

[fiestavike]

Yeah I don’t think I could trade both. I say trade up from 22 for a stud and trade down from 25

Totally agree, PHP.

In another thread, I was lambasted for being OK with a trade of both picks and Reiff for Trent Williams and the No. 2 pick. In that scenario, we'd get BOTH an all-pro left tackle AND a potentially franchise-altering player.

Yet now we say it's OK to trade both first-round picks for Tristan Wirfs?

Look, Wirfs had a monster combine and a great career at a school that consistently produces solid offensive linemen. He's likely to be a really good player, maybe even an all-pro. But seriously, that's a LOT of draft capital for a guy who's probably top-15, maybe top-10 for teams that fall in love with his combine numbers, and projects as a RT or guard.

And please note: I live in Iowa, and I'm a Hawk fan. I love Wirfs, and if we were in a position to draft him, I'd be all-in. But I'm not sure I'm all-in on trading two first-round picks for one player. Even the Williams scenario above gives me pause, although I wouldn't hate it. You risk replaying the Herschel Walker trade when you start dealing multiple firsts.

I think VV kind of backed off that proposal, so its not a big deal. I think he was just expressing how highly he regards Wirfs, and would like to see the Vikings find a way to get him. 2 first round picks is too much, and I think we pretty much all agree.

[VikingsVictorious]

Totally agree, PHP.

In another thread, I was lambasted for being OK with a trade of both picks and Reiff for Trent Williams and the No. 2 pick. In that scenario, we'd get BOTH an all-pro left tackle AND a potentially franchise-altering player.

Yet now we say it's OK to trade both first-round picks for Tristan Wirfs?

Look, Wirfs had a monster combine and a great career at a school that consistently produces solid offensive linemen. He's likely to be a really good player, maybe even an all-pro. But seriously, that's a LOT of draft capital for a guy who's probably top-15, maybe top-10 for teams that fall in love with his combine numbers, and projects as a RT or guard.

And please note: I live in Iowa, and I'm a Hawk fan. I love Wirfs, and if we were in a position to draft him, I'd be all-in. But I'm not sure I'm all-in on trading two first-round picks for one player. Even the Williams scenario above gives me pause, although I wouldn't hate it. You risk replaying the Herschel Walker trade when you start dealing multiple firsts.

I think VV kind of backed off that proposal, so its not a big deal. I think he was just expressing how highly he regards Wirfs, and would like to see the Vikings find a way to get him. 2 first round picks is too much, and I think we pretty much all agree.

I'm not sure we all agree. I might actually be willing to trade both picks. Not saying I am, but I might be. If we can trade both firsts and get a 2nd back I would do that.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Totally agree, PHP.

In another thread, I was lambasted for being OK with a trade of both picks and Reiff for Trent Williams and the No. 2 pick. In that scenario, we'd get BOTH an all-pro left tackle AND a potentially franchise-altering player.

Yet now we say it's OK to trade both first-round picks for Tristan Wirfs?

Look, Wirfs had a monster combine and a great career at a school that consistently produces solid offensive linemen. He's likely to be a really good player, maybe even an all-pro. But seriously, that's a LOT of draft capital for a guy who's probably top-15, maybe top-10 for teams that fall in love with his combine numbers, and projects as a RT or guard.

And please note: I live in Iowa, and I'm a Hawk fan. I love Wirfs, and if we were in a position to draft him, I'd be all-in. But I'm not sure I'm all-in on trading two first-round picks for one player. Even the Williams scenario above gives me pause, although I wouldn't hate it. You risk replaying the Herschel Walker trade when you start dealing multiple firsts.

Williams is 32 is it with an injury history. Wirfs is 22 without. That's a big difference. It would be real interesting though to get Williams and Chase Young. Could have two all pros in the trenches for years to come.

I'm still all for trading Reiff and a 3rd or 4th for Williams. If we can do that AND draft Wirfs our line would look like:

LT: Williams
LG: Wirfs
C: Bradbury
RG: Could put a garbage can there for all I care
RT: O'Neill

That's a hell of an OL and easily the best OL we have had in years.

[fiestavike]

I think VV kind of backed off that proposal, so its not a big deal. I think he was just expressing how highly he regards Wirfs, and would like to see the Vikings find a way to get him. 2 first round picks is too much, and I think we pretty much all agree.

I'm not sure we all agree. I might actually be willing to trade both picks. Not saying I am, but I might be. If we can trade both firsts and get a 2nd back I would do that.

Ok, I stand corrected! I like your devotion! I could see using one of the firsts and some other draft capital, but I'd be too hesitant to use them both for Wirfs.