Panthers @ VIkings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 6

[Just Me]

Just so I get this straight. Ponder has 3 turnovers that result in TD's in three games. Average 1 TD per turnover per game. Cassel has 2 turnovers that result in TD's in two games. Average 1 TD per game, but he's an upgrade. Want to know what the difference in Ponders 0-3 record and Cassel's 1-1 record? It's simple. The Pittsburgh game is the only one were the defense held the other team to under 30 points. Until the defense stops the other team from scoring an average of 31.6 points a game, it won't matter if the QB is Ponder, Cassel or Freeman. You can't win when the other team scores 30+ points. Well you can, 12% of the time.

But just so I get this straight:

Passer Ratings of: 64.28, 75.27, and 64.38 are better or the same as 123.4 and 74.1? This is not even a minor upgrade? (And I'm even conceding it may be a "wash")

(Also - not to be a jerk, but Ponder has thrown 5 INTs in 3 games not 3. Cassel has thrown 2 in 2 games. I realize you are talking about TDs that are scored after the INT, but again you are treating those as equal. I know on Cassel's first INT was well into Carolina's side of the field (no different than a KO or a punt IMHO). Some of Ponder's created a 'short field' where Ponder was lucky the defense held for only a FG. I'd prefer to compare INTs to INTs regardless of what the defense does after, as that is kind of beyond the control of the QB. The QB, regardless of who it is, shouldn't have turned it over in the first place.)

I agree that until we get our defense fixed, Peyton Manning would have a hard time leading this team to victory, and have said this in other threads

[Mothman]

But just so I get this straight:

Passer Ratings of: 64.28, 75.27, and 64.38 are better or the same as 123.4 and 74.1? This is not even a minor upgrade? (And I'm even conceding it may be a "wash")

Well, the 74.1 isn't an upgrade over the 75.27.

[Just Me]

Well, the 74.1 isn't an upgrade over the 75.27.

You got me there!

[Raptorman]

But just so I get this straight:

Passer Ratings of: 64.28, 75.27, and 64.38 are better or the same as 123.4 and 74.1? This is not even a minor upgrade? (And I'm even conceding it may be a "wash")

(Also - not to be a jerk, but Ponder has thrown 5 INTs in 3 games not 3. Cassel has thrown 2 in 2 games. I realize you are talking about TDs that are scored after the INT, but again you are treating those as equal. I know on Cassel's first INT was well into Carolina's side of the field (no different than a KO or a punt IMHO). Some of Ponder's created a 'short field' where Ponder was lucky the defense held for only a FG. I'd prefer to compare INTs to INTs regardless of what the defense does after, as that is kind of beyond the control of the QB. The QB, regardless of who it is, shouldn't have turned it over in the first place.)

I agree that until we get our defense fixed, Peyton Manning would have a hard time leading this team to victory, and have said this in other threads

Ok, My bad. I forgot about Ponders pick six. So it's 4 Tds in three games for Ponder. Yup Cassel is an upgrade. BTW, none of Ponders turnovers resulted in a FG.

[Just Me]

Ok, My bad. I forgot about Ponders pick six. So it's 4 Tds in three games for Ponder. Yup Cassel is an upgrade. BTW, none of Ponders turnovers resulted in a FG.

You're correct. I think I was remembering the Detroit game where Ponder turned it over in FG range for Detroit, but Detroit threw an INT on the next play. Sorry about that. I still think comparing only the turnovers that lead to scores is not as accurate as just comparing TOs (regardless of what the opposing team does with them afterwards) though. But as I previously said: "Cassel is a minor (if any) upgrade over Ponder," so I don't think we disagree here (or at least to any significant degree).

[S197]

Just so I get this straight. Ponder has 3 turnovers that result in TD's in three games. Average 1 TD per turnover per game. Cassel has 2 turnovers that result in TD's in two games. Average 1 TD per game, but he's an upgrade. Want to know what the difference in Ponders 0-3 record and Cassel's 1-1 record? It's simple. The Pittsburgh game is the only one were the defense held the other team to under 30 points. Until the defense stops the other team from scoring an average of 31.6 points a game, it won't matter if the QB is Ponder, Cassel or Freeman. You can't win when the other team scores 30+ points. Well you can, 12% of the time.

Yes, lets get this straight. The defense allowed 24 points against Chicago and was responsible for another 7 points, for a net "give up" of 17 points. They also gave up 24 points to the Browns. So while I agree with you that you can't let the other team score 30+ points per game, you can't put it all on the defense. At least one touchdown was on the special teams and one was on Ponder. Lets also not forget that Ponder threw another pick six against Detroit, which was only nullified due to a bonehead penalty by Suh which had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the play.

It's not quite as simple as you make it out to be, when a team has a 1-4 record, it's much more than just the defense or just the quarterback, it's systemic.

[Reignman]

I don't know what's more hilarious, how the apologists are still defending Ponder, or how they're now failing to defend him with desperate comparisons to Matt Cassel. Do you hear yourselves? Wow, tell me more about how cherry picking some obscure stats about the 33rd best QB in league is going to convince anyone of anything other than the likelihood of you being insane?

Bash Cassel all you like, there are no Cassel apologists here. Nobody here is delusional enough to believe Cassel is good enough to lead us to any Superbowl. It's not like he was our first choice, we just wanted anyone but Ponder because it's a sign we're finally moving on. The experiment is FINALLY over, and Freeman is confirmation of that. Bring on the next project.

[Demi]

but he's an upgrade.

Ponder had 29 games and couldn't manage a QB rating as high as Cassel did in his first game on the team.

Even last week Cassel is making throws Ponder can't physically make. Can you imagine Ponder against a Panthers defense that is pretty damn good? Against those blitzes?

Still can't see Cassel is an upgrade at this point.

[Reignman]

Ponder had 29 games and couldn't manage a QB rating as high as Cassel did in his first game on the team.

Now that's hilarious Even in his holy grail game last year vs the Packers he only manged a 120.2 (career high). And only half (15 of 29) of his career starts has he had a rating higher than that of Cassel on Sunday.

How bout this stat, it usually takes Ponder a full game to do what Manning does per quarter.

Peyton Manning
24 quarters started in 2013
7 quarters with 2+ TD's
2 quarters with 3 TD's

Christian Ponder
29 games started in career
11 games with 2+ TD's
2 games with 3 TD's

[Raptorman]

I don't know what's more hilarious, how the apologists are still defending Ponder, or how they're now failing to defend him with desperate comparisons to Matt Cassel. Do you hear yourselves? Wow, tell me more about how cherry picking some obscure stats about the 33rd best QB in league is going to convince anyone of anything other than the likelihood of you being insane?

Bash Cassel all you like, there are no Cassel apologists here. Nobody here is delusional enough to believe Cassel is good enough to lead us to any Superbowl. It's not like he was our first choice, we just wanted anyone but Ponder because it's a sign we're finally moving on. The experiment is FINALLY over, and Freeman is confirmation of that. Bring on the next project.

Sorry, not a Ponder apologist. Just want the QB playing to be held to the same standard as the previous QB. Nothing more nothing less. Anything else is hypocritical. And when Freeman is the QB and the team still does not win? Ponder was vilified on this board after every loss this year. So if the QB is as much responsible for the loss as Ponder was, he should be just a vilified. And in this case he was. 14 points worth.

Cassel's QB rating prior to the Vikings last drive. 58.2. 25/34 163 yards 0 TD's and 2 INTs. 4.8 yards per attempt.

[Demi]

Now we're making "prior to last drive" QB ratings.

Even people who wanted Ponder benched never stooped that low.
And the week before it was "almost interceptions"

Give me a break.

his QB rating for the game was higher than two of Ponders this year, and right around the other one. His previous QB rating was equal to TWO of Ponder's games. Has nothing to do with winning or losing, do you not WATCH them play the position? You honestly can't see that Cassel is a better quarterback? There's no hope...

[Webbfann]

Cassel's QB rating prior to the Vikings last drive. 58.2. 25/34 163 yards 0 TD's and 2 INTs. 4.8 yards per attempt.

And therein lies the Musgrave Rub.

One area I'd always defend Ponder was the terrible play calling, and Cassel was hobbled by that as much as Ponder. Maybe more, because he can actually complete longer throws that Ponder can't. He didn't do himself a favor by throwing 2 TDs, and those are on him not Musgrave.

BTW, 25/34 is 73.5 % which aint bad at all. But when your completions average 6 yards it isn't enough.

[vikeinmontana]

what is the point of even discussing this? ponder is done. gone. he was not good enough and we moved on. cassell is also terrible. to be clear i'm not saying this because i'm a ponder apologist. it's just that he sucks too. he is better than ponder, which is clear to nearly everyone.

the point that some were making is that every loss we've had with ponder as a starter it was always his fault. always. not coaching. not defense. not our o-line. but ponder. always ponder.

so now we bring in another guy. still terrible but better than ponder. where were all the threads about cassell and his terrible performance? and to be clear even if those threads had happened I would have disagreed with them too. people just obsess over the qb position and forget about everything necessary to be a winning team. we could have nearly any other qb in the league and as long as our defense is as terrible as they have been all year the results will be the same.

it's very clear to me and many here that cassell is better than ponder. and i'll go out on a limb and say freeman is better than cassell. but this is just as obvious to me as it is that had ponder been our starter again this week and the game played out just the same there wouldn't be all these threads about firing coaches or anything else. it'd be all ponder, all the time, in every thread.

the defense has been the weak link on this team all season and many of us said as much. people were just to blinded by ponder to see it.

[Raptorman]

And therein lies the Musgrave Rub.

One area I'd always defend Ponder was the terrible play calling, and Cassel was hobbled by that as much as Ponder. Maybe more, because he can actually complete longer throws that Ponder can't. He didn't do himself a favor by throwing 2 TDs, and those are on him not Musgrave.

BTW, 25/34 is 73.5 % which aint bad at all. But when your completions average 6 yards it isn't enough.

I for one am really starting to believe it's not he QB that is the problem as much as the plays and play calling. We have seen Cassel play well on other teams. We have even seen Ponder do well at times. So when they start Freeman and he sucks, when will anyone on the team realize it's not the QB's? Ponder < Cassel < Freeman. That's the theory. How many times have we seen a QB in the league do poorly under one OC then watch them do well under another? It's not that I think anyone QB on the team is that much better or worse than the others, I no longer have faith in the coaching staff. Even with his full set of stats, Cassel only and 5.4 yards per attempt. You cannot win with that number being that low. Matters not who is throwing the ball.

[Reignman]

Now we're making "prior to last drive" QB ratings.

To be fair, if we did "prior to last drive" with Ponder his rating wouldn't change much because he couldn't even pad the stats in garbage time.

I for one am really starting to believe it's not he QB that is the problem as much as the plays and play calling.

You're saying you're borderline delusional? Should we call your emergency contact?

Sorry, not a Ponder apologist.

Yep we better make that call xD.