Cuts thread

[VikingLord]

I think that's a good assessment of the situation regarding both T-Jack and Webb.

One thing I'll add about Jackson that I find astonishing. When Jackson was a college QB for Alabama State, he was not considered an accurate passer. Jackson had a completion average of around 52 percent for his college career. He was a big play guy with a strong arm and good legs. What does Childress do? He tries to force-feed TJ into a WCO hybrid that calls for a heady QB who throws precise passes. In no way am I making any excuses for TJ but he was basically dead before the boat ever sank.

I think the Vikings are at least cognizant of what they have in Webb. Or at least I hope they are. I don't think they feel Webb can be the next Johnny Unitis, but that he might end up as a serviceable backup QB. Maybe I'm wrong. It just seems as if that's the direction they're going with Webb.

I think it's important to emphasize that it was Childress who drafted Webb and Childress who chose to "groom" Webb at QB. Webb is not a Frazier choice, nor a Musgrave choice per se. He's a Chilly Special, and the fact that neither Frazier nor Musgrave has deemed it necessary to correct that mistake is disturbing to say the least.

I like Webb. I think he's a nice guy. But he's not an NFL-caliber QB. Maybe he's NFL-caliber as something else (based on what I've seen he'd be a decent returner and possibly a good possession receiver if he developed his receiving skills), but as a QB he's going to be a guy who is fairly easy for defensive coordinators to shut down provided they can prepare for him. And that's pretty much what we've seen from him. When he's been thrust into games as a replacement, he has some success, but mostly by scrambling. When defenses know he's the starter, however, they shut that down and by extension shut him down.

It would be nice to be able to believe in this team, but something tells me it's going to be another very long season.

[Mothman]

I think the Vikings are at least cognizant of what they have in Webb. Or at least I hope they are. I don't think they feel Webb can be the next Johnny Unitis, but that he might end up as a serviceable backup QB. Maybe I'm wrong. It just seems as if that's the direction they're going with Webb.

I think that's exactly what they're doing since Ponder is clearly the starter. They see a player with obvious talent who has shown he can create problems for NFL defenses and they want to do what coaches do: help him develop into a better player.

[dead_poet]

[Maybe he's NFL-caliber as something else (based on what I've seen he'd be a decent returner and possibly a good possession receiver if he developed his receiving skills)

I'm baffled why you think if he refined his receiving skills he'd be a good possession receiver. I guess I see possession guys are crisp route runners, good hands and — how should I put this delicately — less dynamic (okay, slower). Webb has better-than-average size, questionable hands and blazing speed, good strength and monstrous jumping ability. To me, that screams playmaking outside vertical threat. Just for some perspective:

His insane 42.5" vertical, 11 feet 5.5" standing long jump, 21 reps of 225 would've all been the best at the WR position, had he been invited to the 2010 combine. At 6'4 220 pounds he also ran an absurd 4.43.

It likely doesn't matter because the discussion of him as a WR is probably moot. He's playing QB this season (and hopefully improves) and unlikely to be moved to WR by this staff without some kind of veteran insurance, next offseason at the earliest. However my money is that as long as he's in Purple, he'll continue to be coached as a QB. This isn't necessarily a bad thing — you know, unless it doesn't work.

[Eli]

Chris DeGeare was picked up by the Titans.

Chris DeGeare ‏@ChrisDeGeare
I'm officially a TENNESSEE TITAN!

[losperros]

His insane 42.5" vertical, 11 feet 5.5" standing long jump, 21 reps of 225 would've all been the best at the WR position, had he been invited to the 2010 combine. At 6'4 220 pounds he also ran an absurd 4.43.

Dang! Those are terminator-like numbers! Not a wonder everyone is awe-struck by Webb's athleticism.

I sure do wish Webb could get the basics down as a QB or WR. The guy is a freak as an athlete. But is he a disciple of the game, too?

I guess the team is going to try to make it happen at QB. But maybe you're right. Maybe the push all along should have been wide receiver.

[VikingLord]

I'm baffled why you think if he refined his receiving skills he'd be a good possession receiver. I guess I see possession guys are crisp route runners, good hands and — how should I put this delicately — less dynamic (okay, slower). Webb has better-than-average size, questionable hands and blazing speed, good strength and monstrous jumping ability. To me, that screams playmaking outside vertical threat. Just for some perspective:

His insane 42.5" vertical, 11 feet 5.5" standing long jump, 21 reps of 225 would've all been the best at the WR position, had he been invited to the 2010 combine. At 6'4 220 pounds he also ran an absurd 4.43.

Basically, the same stats you listed could make him an outstanding possession receiver. His vertical (outjumping defenders even when covered), his strength (out-muscling defenders for the ball), and his height and weight (gaining and holding position) are all characteristics that would lend themselves to a possession receiver. And while his large hands can be an asset as a passer, I'd imagine those would come in handy (ahem) as a receiver as well.

Most germane to the Vikings, however, is the fact that while the Vikings have an established slot receiver in Harvin, and presumably have an established deep threat in Simpson, they have no clear possession receiver. Webb could have auditioned for that role. Had he been developed as a WR, who knows, maybe by this time he might even be ready to assume that role and be effective at it. Maybe he could have been a hybrid possession/deep threat given his unique physical attributes, but it looks like we'll never know.

[dead_poet]

Basically, the same stats you listed could make him an outstanding possession receiver. His vertical (outjumping defenders even when covered), his strength (out-muscling defenders for the ball), and his height and weight (gaining and holding position) are all characteristics that would lend themselves to a possession receiver. And while his large hands can be an asset as a passer, I'd imagine those would come in handy (ahem) as a receiver as well.

I know we're just splitting hairs here but I have to disagree. In my mind, Webb would be an outstanding vertical threat and fits that mold so much better than being relegated to a possession receiver. You just don't see many "possession receivers" with that kind of speed and overall athletic ability.

Most germane to the Vikings, however, is the fact that while the Vikings have an established slot receiver in Harvin, and presumably have an established deep threat in Simpson, they have no clear possession receiver.

Michael Jenkins defines that role in my mind as Greg Camarillo did before him.

[mosscarter]

half of our starters should be cut

[PurpleMustReign]

half of our starters should be cut

Good, insightful post there. Way to add to the discussion.

[mosscarter]

its true purplemustreign. the only name i saw on the board worth (or not worth commenting on) was michael jenkins. let me ask you something, if we cut him tomorrow would sign him? and let me add, hes basically ponders only go to target aside from harvin for the first three weeks. it will be a long time before the vikings reign again, i just hope its sooner rather than later.

[mansquatch]

I think the idea is that Rudolph and Carlson will fill the posession role. In both cases their size makes them ideal, especialy Rudolph with his monster mitts. Also, if you have both of them on the field, then you can only have 2 WR unless you run an empty backfield formation.

Long term this is probably better since you want a guy like Simpson who is a legit deep threat to stretch the defense. Then you can have both TE as either blockers or recieveing threats which should allow the offense to keep defenses more off balance. Obviously that depends on many things going right, but I think that is the basic theme they are going for.

[dead_poet]

I think the idea is that Rudolph and Carlson will fill the posession role. In both cases their size makes them ideal, especialy Rudolph with his monster mitts. Also, if you have both of them on the field, then you can only have 2 WR unless you run an empty backfield formation.

Honestly, a lineup of: Simpson, Harvin, Rudolph, Carlson and either AD or Toby in the backfield isn't a bad one (provided, you know, protection holds up and Ponder can accurately read and throw). Actually, that combination has me rather encouraged/excited. Simpson is often a mismatch deep. Harvin is over the middle. Rudolph likewise against DBs or linebackers. Same to a lesser degree from Carlson. There are distinct advantages to that alignment. Especially once AD is back at full strength. Do teams still stack the box in that situation?

[Mothman]

Honestly, a lineup of: Simpson, Harvin, Rudolph, Carlson and either AD or Toby in the backfield isn't a bad one (provided, you know, protection holds up and Ponder can accurately read and throw). Actually, that combination has me rather encouraged/excited. Simpson is often a mismatch deep. Harvin is over the middle. Rudolph likewise against DBs or linebackers. Same to a lesser degree from Carlson. There are distinct advantages to that alignment. Especially once AD is back at full strength. Do teams still stack the box in that situation?

More importantly, if they do can the Vikes make them pay for it?

I think all too often there's a tendency from some fans to view role players as worthless, average players as inconsequential and to focus on star power. There's no doubt the Vikings would be better off if they had a top notch receiver, a player like Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson on their roster but with the alignment you described above, they should be able to move the ball, create some mismatches for defenses, etc. In other words, with good o-line and QB play, they should be able to field a productive offense.

I don't know how good Rudolph can be as a pro but when you look at the kind of numbers TEs like Graham and Gronkowski put up last year, or even the numbers next tier TEs like Witten, Finley, Hernandez, Gonzalez (still going strong!), Keller, etc. put up, it's clear that a good TE can be as valuable as a good #2 WR. Heck, NE's two starting TEs combined for 169 catches, 24 TDs and over 200 yards receiving last season. Sure, they had Tom Brady throwing them the ball and that makes a big difference but if the combo of Carlson and Rudolph can be half that productive it could be significant for the Vikings.

[losperros]

Honestly, a lineup of: Simpson, Harvin, Rudolph, Carlson and either AD or Toby in the backfield isn't a bad one (provided, you know, protection holds up and Ponder can accurately read and throw). Actually, that combination has me rather encouraged/excited. Simpson is often a mismatch deep. Harvin is over the middle. Rudolph likewise against DBs or linebackers. Same to a lesser degree from Carlson. There are distinct advantages to that alignment. Especially once AD is back at full strength. Do teams still stack the box in that situation?

Yes, they stack the box if the Vikings OL can't block or Ponder gets crazed whenever he sees pressure. Aside from that, I agree wholeheartedly that the combination of skill players you mentioned could be difficult for any NFL D to defend.

I think all too often there's a tendency from some fans to view role players as worthless, average players as inconsequential and to focus on star power. There's no doubt the Vikings would be better off if they had a top notch receiver, a player like Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson on their roster but with the alignment you described above, they should be able to move the ball, create some mismatches for defenses, etc. In other words, with good o-line and QB play, they should be able to field a productive offense.

I agree. It all comes back to what happens at the LoS on both sides of the ball. And, of course, Ponder has to come through.

One other thing, regarding role players, maybe I'm looking at this differently but I don't see Jerome Simpson as a role player. I know his strength is catching the deep ball. However, his only real fault is inconsistency and not that he can't catch short to medium passes. Simpson, not unlike Harvin, can catch a 5 yard pass to move the chains. It's just that, not unlike Harvin again, he can turn that 5 yard pass into a 50 yard TD. That's kind of nice.

Actually, I don't see Rudolph as a role receiver either. He can play TE, split out, run an assortment of routes, and catch passes anywhere on the field. That was why the Vikings valued him so highly on draft day.

My point is that if the Vikings OL and QB Ponder come through, then these receivers should be frustrating for opposing Ds to cover, due to their versatility.

[The Breeze]

I'm AOK with them cutting Sage. If this team wasn't coming off a 3-13 season I'd bet he'd still be on the 53.

As far as Webb goes...I think he's a decent option for back up....but he's more of a #3 IMO. His athleticism skews how he's viewed and it really shouldn't, because he's glaringly limited in spite of that athleticism. He honestly hasn't proven to me that he's that much of a football player yet. Great open field runner, with strength and speed....but lacks a lot of fundamental skills and knowledge of defenses. I disagree with whoever it was that said catching a football is an ability you are born with. If you commit to learning how to catch the ball and run routes you should get at least to an average capacity. There are receivers who are gifted for sure....but todays NFL seems to be way full of incredible huge athletes and short on guys that just know how to play the game. Just like the NBA full of giant people who can't hit mid-range jumpers.

I don't know how much of a chance Webb has had to increase his overall capacity as a football player. And I know he hasn't had legitimate time at the QB position (live games) to progress in a way that augments his athleticism,....barring an injury to Ponder I doubt he'll get that time. I really doubt how much a guy can learn and by watching games, film and practicing when what he needs is live snaps.

I think he'd be a great kick returner and if they wind up with a better backup QB Webb should move down the chart or get traded. He's the #2 QB....it is what it is.

How did Kevin Murphy make the practice squad?