Vikings at Raiders

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Cliff
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by Cliff »

fiestavike wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:41 am His lawsuit won't help him get a HC job, but many great coordinators are not great head coaches and Flores is probably one of them.

Finishing out the season without Kirk, vikings really need to get run game going to compliment the defense they have built with Flores.
Ditching KOC is insane to me. He's a first time 38 year old coach who went 13-4 his first year and won the division. They went out in the 1st round, which obviously isn't the goal, but considering beginning of year expectations it was a terrific and entertaining
season. This season his team is still above .500 despite major injuries to key players including QB and arguably the best WR in the league.

I've been talking about turnovers all season so it should be no surprise I latched onto the stat that KOC is 17-0 with an even TO margin or better. To me that says when games are executed the way he calls them and not fumbled or throw away, the Vikings win.

To me Flores seems like Zimmer 2.0. Should probably be a DC and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Cliff wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 10:52 am
fiestavike wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:41 am His lawsuit won't help him get a HC job, but many great coordinators are not great head coaches and Flores is probably one of them.

Finishing out the season without Kirk, vikings really need to get run game going to compliment the defense they have built with Flores.
Ditching KOC is insane to me. He's a first time 38 year old coach who went 13-4 his first year and won the division. They went out in the 1st round, which obviously isn't the goal, but considering beginning of year expectations it was a terrific and entertaining
season. This season his team is still above .500 despite major injuries to key players including QB and arguably the best WR in the league.

I've been talking about turnovers all season so it should be no surprise I latched onto the stat that KOC is 17-0 with an even TO margin or better. To me that says when games are executed the way he calls them and not fumbled or throw away, the Vikings win.

To me Flores seems like Zimmer 2.0. Should probably be a DC and there's nothing wrong with that.
I would have preferred Harbaugh, but KOC has given us ZERO reason to Move on. KAM on the other hand I would pack his bags for him.
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jvessey
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by jvessey »

Did anyone else see the Raiders put up 21 points on the Chargers in the first quarter last night? And 63 overall? Another indication that our defense is really good.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:55 pm
Cliff wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 10:52 am

Ditching KOC is insane to me. He's a first time 38 year old coach who went 13-4 his first year and won the division. They went out in the 1st round, which obviously isn't the goal, but considering beginning of year expectations it was a terrific and entertaining
season. This season his team is still above .500 despite major injuries to key players including QB and arguably the best WR in the league.

I've been talking about turnovers all season so it should be no surprise I latched onto the stat that KOC is 17-0 with an even TO margin or better. To me that says when games are executed the way he calls them and not fumbled or throw away, the Vikings win.

To me Flores seems like Zimmer 2.0. Should probably be a DC and there's nothing wrong with that.
I would have preferred Harbaugh, but KOC has given us ZERO reason to Move on. KAM on the other hand I would pack his bags for him.
All HC get flak from fans. If Reid was here many would want him gone. KOC needs to stay. The players are giving there best and playing hard. Same case as last year. When you can win 13 games with an expansion team defense that's doing a great job. My only complaint is falling in love with Dobbs and letting the Bear game go down the toilet and then getting another start after that. I'll carry KAM's bags to the cab. He should have been fired when he traded his first first round draft pick away for nothing. Based on that move I'm sure he's missed many opportunities to upgrade our talent level. Smart in the class room but dumb in the real world application of those smarts. A walking zombie.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by VikingLord »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:55 pm
Cliff wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 10:52 am

Ditching KOC is insane to me. He's a first time 38 year old coach who went 13-4 his first year and won the division. They went out in the 1st round, which obviously isn't the goal, but considering beginning of year expectations it was a terrific and entertaining
season. This season his team is still above .500 despite major injuries to key players including QB and arguably the best WR in the league.

I've been talking about turnovers all season so it should be no surprise I latched onto the stat that KOC is 17-0 with an even TO margin or better. To me that says when games are executed the way he calls them and not fumbled or throw away, the Vikings win.

To me Flores seems like Zimmer 2.0. Should probably be a DC and there's nothing wrong with that.
I would have preferred Harbaugh, but KOC has given us ZERO reason to Move on. KAM on the other hand I would pack his bags for him.
KOC does have some negatives. Just listen to his pressers and how he answers questions and I get the sense he'd make a great politician if the head coaching gig doesn't pan out. He shows some disturbing inflexibility in-game when it appears he thinks something should work when it clearly isn't. He tends to get uber conservative on offense as well once he gets a lead, which tends to make a lot of games closer than they have to be. I don't think it is purely an accident that the Vikings under KOC have been in so many one-score games. I think KOC's mindset makes it far more likely they will be. If he wins most of those games like he did in his first season that's great, but when games consistently turn into coin flips the long-term odds don't favor heads coming up more than half the time. And lastly, he's got a great attitude and approach with his players, sure, but what happens if he needs to crack the whip and get tough on someone or on the team in general? That can be a tough line to walk.

Also, KOC inherited a pretty solid offensive unit talent-wise unlike what Flores inherited this year on the defensive side of the ball. Flores has shown he can wring a lot out of a relative little.

I'm not saying I don't like KOC as a head coach, just that he has some question marks and there are parallels to the Childress-Tomlin situation.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by StanM »

VikingLord wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:14 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:55 pm
I would have preferred Harbaugh, but KOC has given us ZERO reason to Move on. KAM on the other hand I would pack his bags for him.
KOC does have some negatives. Just listen to his pressers and how he answers questions and I get the sense he'd make a great politician if the head coaching gig doesn't pan out. He shows some disturbing inflexibility in-game when it appears he thinks something should work when it clearly isn't. He tends to get uber conservative on offense as well once he gets a lead, which tends to make a lot of games closer than they have to be. I don't think it is purely an accident that the Vikings under KOC have been in so many one-score games. I think KOC's mindset makes it far more likely they will be. If he wins most of those games like he did in his first season that's great, but when games consistently turn into coin flips the long-term odds don't favor heads coming up more than half the time. And lastly, he's got a great attitude and approach with his players, sure, but what happens if he needs to crack the whip and get tough on someone or on the team in general? That can be a tough line to walk.

Also, KOC inherited a pretty solid offensive unit talent-wise unlike what Flores inherited this year on the defensive side of the ball. Flores has shown he can wring a lot out of a relative little.

I'm not saying I don't like KOC as a head coach, just that he has some question marks and there are parallels to the Childress-Tomlin situation.
.

Where do KOC’s responsibility for the offense start and Wes Phillips end? If any heads roll at the end of this season I’m thinking that Wes may have sealed his fate when he blew an .08. I think this is a valid question and the most likely shakeup if there are any this offseason.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by VikingsVictorious »

jvessey wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 5:48 am Did anyone else see the Raiders put up 21 points on the Chargers in the first quarter last night? And 63 overall? Another indication that our defense is really good.
I like the way you think. :rock:
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 7:44 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:55 pm
I would have preferred Harbaugh, but KOC has given us ZERO reason to Move on. KAM on the other hand I would pack his bags for him.
All HC get flak from fans. If Reid was here many would want him gone. KOC needs to stay. The players are giving there best and playing hard. Same case as last year. When you can win 13 games with an expansion team defense that's doing a great job. My only complaint is falling in love with Dobbs and letting the Bear game go down the toilet and then getting another start after that. I'll carry KAM's bags to the cab. He should have been fired when he traded his first first round draft pick away for nothing. Based on that move I'm sure he's missed many opportunities to upgrade our talent level. Smart in the class room but dumb in the real world application of those smarts. A walking zombie.
Sticking with Dobbs IMO cost us the Denver and Chicago games. The Denver game was excusable as Dobbs had managed to lead us to 2 important wins, but as you said he let the Bears game go down the Toilet. Unwilling to make the call for a change until it was too late. He almost stuck with him through the Raiders game and finally .... finally decided to make a change just in time for us to get a win.
As for Kwesi trading that first round pick I could understand the reasoning. I would have drafted Jordan Davis instead of making that trade. The results are in now and they are very unfavorable. Fire him at the end of this season.
Last edited by VikingsVictorious on Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:14 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:55 pm
I would have preferred Harbaugh, but KOC has given us ZERO reason to Move on. KAM on the other hand I would pack his bags for him.
KOC does have some negatives. Just listen to his pressers and how he answers questions and I get the sense he'd make a great politician if the head coaching gig doesn't pan out. He shows some disturbing inflexibility in-game when it appears he thinks something should work when it clearly isn't. He tends to get uber conservative on offense as well once he gets a lead, which tends to make a lot of games closer than they have to be. I don't think it is purely an accident that the Vikings under KOC have been in so many one-score games. I think KOC's mindset makes it far more likely they will be. If he wins most of those games like he did in his first season that's great, but when games consistently turn into coin flips the long-term odds don't favor heads coming up more than half the time. And lastly, he's got a great attitude and approach with his players, sure, but what happens if he needs to crack the whip and get tough on someone or on the team in general? That can be a tough line to walk.

Also, KOC inherited a pretty solid offensive unit talent-wise unlike what Flores inherited this year on the defensive side of the ball. Flores has shown he can wring a lot out of a relative little.

I'm not saying I don't like KOC as a head coach, just that he has some question marks and there are parallels to the Childress-Tomlin situation.
KOC infuriates me with his conservative at best cowardly at worst choices. There's a thing called analytics which gives the most likely results to choices like going for it on 4th down, punting or trying a long FG stuff like that. KOC tends to go against the right analytical choice out of IMO fear that something might go wrong. However, his results during his first two seasons have been pretty amazing. I think overall the good outweighs the bad.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by fiestavike »

Probably this is the high water mark season for KOC and Kwesi in terms of fielding a team with a chance to compete. The Vikings leadership feels like amateur hour, but I'm always inclined to continuity until it's clear the wheels have fallen off the wagon, so I would bring them back, bring back Kirk, and pour draft resources into the defensive side of the ball next year. Add a couple guys who can force offenses to react and adapt and roll the dice once more.

If you could keep the DC and bring in a better offensive mind as HC, that would be worth considering.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by chicagopurple »

there is no way it will work to keep Cousins with out doing a Serious upgrade to to OL......everyone must know this by now.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

fiestavike wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:50 am Probably this is the high water mark season for KOC and Kwesi in terms of fielding a team with a chance to compete. The Vikings leadership feels like amateur hour, but I'm always inclined to continuity until it's clear the wheels have fallen off the wagon, so I would bring them back, bring back Kirk, and pour draft resources into the defensive side of the ball next year. Add a couple guys who can force offenses to react and adapt and roll the dice once more.

If you could keep the DC and bring in a better offensive mind as HC, that would be worth considering.
One of the worst outcomes that could happen. We need to be grown ups and walk away from Cousins, hes shown he isnt the guy, even with a good D and an Oline, and powerful weapons. He couldnt do better than a 1 and done.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by VikingLord »

chicagopurple wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:52 am there is no way it will work to keep Cousins with out doing a Serious upgrade to to OL......everyone must know this by now.
Unless they can assess Hall as the season ends they are almost backing themselves into a corner at QB. Cousins may not just be an option to bring back - he may be a necessity if they want to remain competitive next season. I don't get the sense the leadership on this team will be content to take a season or two of actual rebuilding - they'll try to tee it up again next season.

Which they could actually do IF KAM drafts better.

Which, unfortunately, has not been a strong suit of his so far.

KOC has to recognize and accept that the best thing he can do for the team's, and his, future is to assess if Hall is starting material, and to do that he's going to have to accept that this year's team just isn't going anywhere even if it makes the playoffs.

One last item of note is JJ. He speaks VERY highly of Cousins, including during his post game comments after the loss to Detroit. He may end up being a big factor in what the Vikings do at the QB position this offseason, because if he wants Cousins back and the Vikings decide to move in a different direction at QB, JJ may very well decide it's time to go elsewhere, and there will be plenty of interested teams.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:00 pm
chicagopurple wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:52 am there is no way it will work to keep Cousins with out doing a Serious upgrade to to OL......everyone must know this by now.
Unless they can assess Hall as the season ends they are almost backing themselves into a corner at QB. Cousins may not just be an option to bring back - he may be a necessity if they want to remain competitive next season. I don't get the sense the leadership on this team will be content to take a season or two of actual rebuilding - they'll try to tee it up again next season.

Which they could actually do IF KAM drafts better.

Which, unfortunately, has not been a strong suit of his so far.

KOC has to recognize and accept that the best thing he can do for the team's, and his, future is to assess if Hall is starting material, and to do that he's going to have to accept that this year's team just isn't going anywhere even if it makes the playoffs.

One last item of note is JJ. He speaks VERY highly of Cousins, including during his post game comments after the loss to Detroit. He may end up being a big factor in what the Vikings do at the QB position this offseason, because if he wants Cousins back and the Vikings decide to move in a different direction at QB, JJ may very well decide it's time to go elsewhere, and there will be plenty of interested teams.
I've always held the position that JJ was a big Cousins fan. I've read some fans acting like JJ hated Kirk and would demand out if we didn't replace him. Those people were/are living in La La Land.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:07 am
VikingLord wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:00 pm

Unless they can assess Hall as the season ends they are almost backing themselves into a corner at QB. Cousins may not just be an option to bring back - he may be a necessity if they want to remain competitive next season. I don't get the sense the leadership on this team will be content to take a season or two of actual rebuilding - they'll try to tee it up again next season.

Which they could actually do IF KAM drafts better.

Which, unfortunately, has not been a strong suit of his so far.

KOC has to recognize and accept that the best thing he can do for the team's, and his, future is to assess if Hall is starting material, and to do that he's going to have to accept that this year's team just isn't going anywhere even if it makes the playoffs.

One last item of note is JJ. He speaks VERY highly of Cousins, including during his post game comments after the loss to Detroit. He may end up being a big factor in what the Vikings do at the QB position this offseason, because if he wants Cousins back and the Vikings decide to move in a different direction at QB, JJ may very well decide it's time to go elsewhere, and there will be plenty of interested teams.
I've always held the position that JJ was a big Cousins fan. I've read some fans acting like JJ hated Kirk and would demand out if we didn't replace him. Those people were/are living in La La Land.
Quotes? Ive never heard any fans say anything like that.