Vikings at Raiders

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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by VikingLord »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:06 pm I think we have the best DC in the NFL right now. I hope we can have him next year too, no matter the cost. And the defense loves him. If we are about to lose him to a team that wants a HC, I would like the Vikings to outbid whatever team wants him. I dont think he would be a good HC, but then neither is KO. And even as HC he could focus on the D, teaching whoever would be the next DC. We need to wrap him up right away.
Curious why you believe Flores wouldn't make a good head coach.

I admit I don't know enough about Flores to reach a conclusion one way or another as to whether he'd make a good head coach, so I'm honestly asking, because from what I've seen Flores' players seem to love playing for him and he seems pretty adept at figuring out how to effectively use them to get the most out of what they do well in his schemes. He seems flexible, adaptive in-game, and a natural leader on the sideline.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

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I really like Flores. A point a lot of the podcasts brought up however was how Tua appeared to be completely stunted under him. I don't know if it's fair, I haven't went back and looked/listened. I guess Fitzpatrick was pretty uncomplementary about him. I need to go back and figure out what they were talking about.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by Cliff »

It would have been more fun to see them win 33-30 but that would have meant the defense didn't play great. For some reason it would feel better tho.

I'm not sure what happened to Dobbs. His passes come out late and slow and off target. I've got my theories but suffice it to say Mullens looked better.

Mullens has similar NFL history to Dobbs. I must have confused him with another player because I thought he was much older. His stats over his career are much better than Dobbs, so maybe he'll catch fire and they have a chance.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

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makila wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:57 pm I really like Flores. A point a lot of the podcasts brought up however was how Tua appeared to be completely stunted under him. I don't know if it's fair, I haven't went back and looked/listened. I guess Fitzpatrick was pretty uncomplementary about him. I need to go back and figure out what they were talking about.
If you do get more info on this subject please update this thread because I'm really curious. Flores seems like a really good coach to me. I was hopeful the Vikings defense could get to mid-table statistically this year, but Flores has them playing better than that, especially as of late. Very impressive job and I think it takes a true leader of men to get that kind of turnaround and performance out of a group of mostly young players.

It's crazy to think that if the Vikings were to make the playoffs the side of the ball that would give them the best chance to advance is the defensive side... When this season started that never crossed my mind as possible, and yet here we are. Flores has everything to do with that IMHO.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

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Cliff wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:16 pm I'm not sure what happened to Dobbs. His passes come out late and slow and off target. I've got my theories but suffice it to say Mullens looked better.
I don't think anything happened to Dobbs in regards to his passes. They always came out late and off target (in addition to other flaws like not seeing receivers coming open), but those flaws were masked by his ability to run and move the ball with his feet. He's not doing that anymore, so the passing flaws are just magnified. Going further, I suspect Dobbs has always had these same tendencies and flaws, which is why he's never stuck anywhere. He was in some situations where he played behind an established starter, but just this year he's had solid chances to show what he can do in Arizona and in Minnesota and he ultimately did in both places.

Mullens will have his own issues, but of the QBs KOC has to choose from right now I'd say Mullens gives him the best chance to win by a country mile.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by chicagopurple »

How can anyone be surprised that Dobbs imploded? He has failed to succeed with every team that gave him a chance, and its a long list. As far as. Our DC, I like a lot of what he has done but he gets way too conservative in the 4th quarter. He needs a bit more fortitude.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by makila »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:34 pm
makila wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:57 pm I really like Flores. A point a lot of the podcasts brought up however was how Tua appeared to be completely stunted under him. I don't know if it's fair, I haven't went back and looked/listened. I guess Fitzpatrick was pretty uncomplementary about him. I need to go back and figure out what they were talking about.
If you do get more info on this subject please update this thread because I'm really curious. Flores seems like a really good coach to me. I was hopeful the Vikings defense could get to mid-table statistically this year, but Flores has them playing better than that, especially as of late. Very impressive job and I think it takes a true leader of men to get that kind of turnaround and performance out of a group of mostly young players.

It's crazy to think that if the Vikings were to make the playoffs the side of the ball that would give them the best chance to advance is the defensive side... When this season started that never crossed my mind as possible, and yet here we are. Flores has everything to do with that IMHO.
Found what they were referencing. This was on TNF broadcast. Take it for what it is. I am not knowledgeable on Fitzpatrick regarding his personality, and any potential desire for a headline. I don't recall him really taking shots at people during his career. Like I said, kinda ignorant on the subject of Fitzpatrick the person.

https://www.si.com/nfl/dolphins/news/mi ... tagovailoa

While discussing the regression of New England Patriots quarterback Mac Jones, and whether the Patriots' benched 2021 first-round pick has been “broken,” he compared Jones’ situation to that of Tagovailoa.

“Tua Tagovailoa, who I was with, Brian Flores — same New England way — he was broken (from) Brian Flores the way he treated him, the way that he coached him,” Fitzpatrick said. “And what happens? Mike McDaniel comes in. He restores his confidence. He gets it back, and now he’s an MVP candidate.”



Now this I question a little bit more, as I do think Mike Lombardi will say things for a headline.

https://www.rollbamaroll.com/2022/11/29 ... phins-fans

“I don’t think [Brian] Flores was shy about telling [Tagovailoa], ‘Hey, I should have picked Mac Jones.’ I don’t think he was shy about telling him that. In fact, I know that he wasn’t,” Michael Lombardi said on The GM Shuffle podcast (h/t Zack Cox of NESN).

Lombardi—a former NFL executive with several teams, including the New England Patriots—said Flores directly criticized Tagovailoa in a conversation during the regular season.

“If I’d have knew you were going to be this bad, I would have picked Mac Jones,” Flores told the quarterback, according to Lombardi.

-----

I would say, that in today's NFL, the HC has to be QB....friendly. If they aren't, they need to get out of the way and let the OC handle it. The game is 100% geared towards passing, offense, qbs, etc. The point of whether it should be or not is a different talking point. The Zimmer approach isn't how the NFL is today.

Really like Flores as a defensive coach. I think he has shown in multiple places he can identify talent to fit what he wants to do, and/or adjust to the players he has. This is something that drives me crazy when coaches don't coach to their players. Or force players into a scheme that clearly doesn't work for them. I think he's innovative, and just a good coach on that side of the ball. He's also young that, as long as he isn't too stubborn, he can adjust what he does. I think (maybe hope) that Miami taught him some lessons as well. I think Tomlin is an interesting comp/parallel that we are familiar with as Vikings fans. Last year or two of Ben, and post-Ben have been a little bit a challenge for them. Tomlin has shown willingness to adjust (at least make offensive coaching staff changes). However their QB swings in last 2-3 years don't appear good.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by Cliff »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:39 pm
Cliff wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:16 pm I'm not sure what happened to Dobbs. His passes come out late and slow and off target. I've got my theories but suffice it to say Mullens looked better.
I don't think anything happened to Dobbs in regards to his passes. They always came out late and off target (in addition to other flaws like not seeing receivers coming open), but those flaws were masked by his ability to run and move the ball with his feet. He's not doing that anymore, so the passing flaws are just magnified. Going further, I suspect Dobbs has always had these same tendencies and flaws, which is why he's never stuck anywhere. He was in some situations where he played behind an established starter, but just this year he's had solid chances to show what he can do in Arizona and in Minnesota and he ultimately did in both places.

Mullens will have his own issues, but of the QBs KOC has to choose from right now I'd say Mullens gives him the best chance to win by a country mile.
They weren't though, especially in that first game, and they aren't always. I think one of his problem is that he understands the plays better now. He's trying to read the field and find the right person and it's taking too long. By the time he's made a decision the play is off course and/or blocking has broken down. He's probably better off reading his first two options and just taking off if he can. Whatever the case, I was cheering for the guy, I hoped he could find some success with Jefferson instead of getting him injured.

Mullens is definitely the right person to start at this point. Dobbs should probably be 3rd string. If Mullens goes down it seems like they almost have to try Hall.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by Cliff »

chicagopurple wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:32 pm How can anyone be surprised that Dobbs imploded? He has failed to succeed with every team that gave him a chance, and its a long list. As far as. Our DC, I like a lot of what he has done but he gets way too conservative in the 4th quarter. He needs a bit more fortitude.
I'm not surprised he didn't hold up to that first game, but I didn't expect him to fall apart so quickly and so hard. His floor was just a lot lower than I realized.

The DC called a shutout, whatever his game plan was it worked and has been working.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

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Cliff wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:53 am
VikingLord wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:39 pm

I don't think anything happened to Dobbs in regards to his passes. They always came out late and off target (in addition to other flaws like not seeing receivers coming open), but those flaws were masked by his ability to run and move the ball with his feet. He's not doing that anymore, so the passing flaws are just magnified. Going further, I suspect Dobbs has always had these same tendencies and flaws, which is why he's never stuck anywhere. He was in some situations where he played behind an established starter, but just this year he's had solid chances to show what he can do in Arizona and in Minnesota and he ultimately did in both places.

Mullens will have his own issues, but of the QBs KOC has to choose from right now I'd say Mullens gives him the best chance to win by a country mile.
They weren't though, especially in that first game, and they aren't always. I think one of his problem is that he understands the plays better now. He's trying to read the field and find the right person and it's taking too long. By the time he's made a decision the play is off course and/or blocking has broken down. He's probably better off reading his first two options and just taking off if he can. Whatever the case, I was cheering for the guy, I hoped he could find some success with Jefferson instead of getting him injured.

Mullens is definitely the right person to start at this point. Dobbs should probably be 3rd string. If Mullens goes down it seems like they almost have to try Hall.
Maybe "always" was overstating it, but even if you go back to his first appearance against the Falcons there were several examples where he held it too long or failed to respond quickly enough to what was going on around him. His start against the Falcons couldn't have been more disastrous if he tried to make it a disaster.

For the record, I was cheering for him too. It was a feel-good story and I honestly was intrigued by the mobility aspect Dobbs brought to the QB position. Cousins wasn't known for his scrambling while Dobbs not only scrambled to buy time for throws, but also had some impressive runs. It just seems like defenses figured out how to negate that for the most part, and honestly I felt like the DBs in the last two games were licking their chops all game waiting on the short routes.

Let's just hope the bad luck is over and Mullens stays healthy. Not that I don't want to see Hall again, but I truly fear what might happen to Hall once DCs get some more tape on him. Mullens at least gives the offense a chance to be consistently productive in the passing game.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

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JJBreaksRecords wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:06 pm I think we have the best DC in the NFL right now. I hope we can have him next year too, no matter the cost. And the defense loves him. If we are about to lose him to a team that wants a HC, I would like the Vikings to outbid whatever team wants him. I dont think he would be a good HC, but then neither is KO. And even as HC he could focus on the D, teaching whoever would be the next DC. We need to wrap him up right away.
At this point I'd be ok making him our HC and I'm an offensive HC kind of guy.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

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makila wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:45 pm “I don’t think [Brian] Flores was shy about telling [Tagovailoa], ‘Hey, I should have picked Mac Jones.’ I don’t think he was shy about telling him that. In fact, I know that he wasn’t,” Michael Lombardi said on The GM Shuffle podcast (h/t Zack Cox of NESN).

Lombardi—a former NFL executive with several teams, including the New England Patriots—said Flores directly criticized Tagovailoa in a conversation during the regular season.

“If I’d have knew you were going to be this bad, I would have picked Mac Jones,” Flores told the quarterback, according to Lombardi.
If that is true, I struggle to understand how Flores could get the rest of his team to respond or play well in that situation, or get the Vikings defense to improve so rapidly in this situation.

The other item of note from what Lombardi says puts the responsibility for that exchange entirely on Flores. Assuming Flores did tell Tua that, maybe it was justified? Maybe Tua wasn't putting in the work he needed to put in and Flores was just calling him out on it? And maybe that lit a fire under him?

Cris Carter always talked about how Buddy Ryan said something publicly to the effect of "that's all he (Carter) does is catch touchdowns" when he traded him or put him on waivers (I forget which it was for Carter), implying Carter otherwise didn't put in the work necessary to excel even though he had obvious talent. That apparently lit a fire under Carter who went on to become one of the all-time great receivers in NFL history. Would he have become that had Ryan not called him out like that? And Buddy Ryan was generally considered to be one of the great all-time coaches in NFL history, certainly as a defensive coach.

So while this snippet in isolation does cast Flores in a poor light, I think it's likely there is more context to it than that, perhaps even context that Tua himself might have some perspective on even if he hasn't made public comments on it yet.
makila wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:45 pm I would say, that in today's NFL, the HC has to be QB....friendly. If they aren't, they need to get out of the way and let the OC handle it. The game is 100% geared towards passing, offense, qbs, etc. The point of whether it should be or not is a different talking point. The Zimmer approach isn't how the NFL is today.
I agree, but Zimmer never had the respect of his players from what I saw, especially as time went on. Zimmer was a systems guy who routinely cast aspersions on the players for failing to execute his scheme correctly when the team struggled.

I don't get the sense Flores does that. If he has a baseline scheme, he clearly looks at what talent he has to work with and adapts it to maximize what he can get out of that talent. Based on the comments of his players, he strikes me as someone who has earned their respect and who they want to play hard for.

I'll take what I'm seeing with my own eyes from the guys playing for Flores now over hearsay from Mike Lombardi or other analysts.
makila wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:45 pm Really like Flores as a defensive coach. I think he has shown in multiple places he can identify talent to fit what he wants to do, and/or adjust to the players he has. This is something that drives me crazy when coaches don't coach to their players. Or force players into a scheme that clearly doesn't work for them. I think he's innovative, and just a good coach on that side of the ball. He's also young that, as long as he isn't too stubborn, he can adjust what he does. I think (maybe hope) that Miami taught him some lessons as well. I think Tomlin is an interesting comp/parallel that we are familiar with as Vikings fans. Last year or two of Ben, and post-Ben have been a little bit a challenge for them. Tomlin has shown willingness to adjust (at least make offensive coaching staff changes). However their QB swings in last 2-3 years don't appear good.
You touched on most of the same points I made above, and I wholeheartedly agree with you, especially on the willingness to learn from mistakes, which is a key to success not just in coaching, but in life generally.

If the defense keeps playing as well as they have I don't see how Flores doesn't get another shot as a head coach somewhere next year. It would be fantastic if he stayed just out of principle and a desire to build a truly great defense in Minnesota, but I'm not sure its realistic to expect him to do that if he has a chance to be a head coach elsewhere.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

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VikingLord wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:39 pm
Cliff wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:16 pm I'm not sure what happened to Dobbs. His passes come out late and slow and off target. I've got my theories but suffice it to say Mullens looked better.
I don't think anything happened to Dobbs in regards to his passes. They always came out late and off target (in addition to other flaws like not seeing receivers coming open), but those flaws were masked by his ability to run and move the ball with his feet. He's not doing that anymore, so the passing flaws are just magnified. Going further, I suspect Dobbs has always had these same tendencies and flaws, which is why he's never stuck anywhere. He was in some situations where he played behind an established starter, but just this year he's had solid chances to show what he can do in Arizona and in Minnesota and he ultimately did in both places.

Mullens will have his own issues, but of the QBs KOC has to choose from right now I'd say Mullens gives him the best chance to win by a country mile.
I actually like Hall best.
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

Post by makila »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:03 pm If that is true, I struggle to understand how Flores could get the rest of his team to respond or play well in that situation, or get the Vikings defense to improve so rapidly in this situation.

The other item of note from what Lombardi says puts the responsibility for that exchange entirely on Flores. Assuming Flores did tell Tua that, maybe it was justified? Maybe Tua wasn't putting in the work he needed to put in and Flores was just calling him out on it? And maybe that lit a fire under him?

Cris Carter always talked about how Buddy Ryan said something publicly to the effect of "that's all he (Carter) does is catch touchdowns" when he traded him or put him on waivers (I forget which it was for Carter), implying Carter otherwise didn't put in the work necessary to excel even though he had obvious talent. That apparently lit a fire under Carter who went on to become one of the all-time great receivers in NFL history. Would he have become that had Ryan not called him out like that? And Buddy Ryan was generally considered to be one of the great all-time coaches in NFL history, certainly as a defensive coach.

So while this snippet in isolation does cast Flores in a poor light, I think it's likely there is more context to it than that, perhaps even context that Tua himself might have some perspective on even if he hasn't made public comments on it yet.
Yeah I agree, especially on the Lombardi comments. I found his while looking for the Fitzpatrick one. Obviously Fitzpatrick wouldn't be hearing things second hand. To your point below...he played for the guy. He was in the qb rooms.

Carter was put on waivers, cut by the Eagles. Obviously his substance abuse problems played into it as well.
VikingLord wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:03 pm I agree, but Zimmer never had the respect of his players from what I saw, especially as time went on. Zimmer was a systems guy who routinely cast aspersions on the players for failing to execute his scheme correctly when the team struggled.

I don't get the sense Flores does that. If he has a baseline scheme, he clearly looks at what talent he has to work with and adapts it to maximize what he can get out of that talent. Based on the comments of his players, he strikes me as someone who has earned their respect and who they want to play hard for.
I think Zimmer had respect of players earlier in his tenure. The message became old, and he lost the locker room. Fear only works for so long imho. Absolutely was a system only guy. Flores appears to be MUCH more flexible with what he does.
VikingLord wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:03 pm I'll take what I'm seeing with my own eyes from the guys playing for Flores now over hearsay from Mike Lombardi or other analysts.
Absolutely. See above re Fitzpatrick's v Lombardi's.
Once I listened to Fitzpatrick's... my thought was that it may have just been a bad pairing. That happens sometimes, in all walks of life, relationships, work, etc, and it's OK. Just wanted to share with you the two different comments once I located them. I think Fitzpatrick was talking more about McDaniel's positives for Tua vs trashing Flores. That is just my interpretation after listening and thinking about it. Which is worth nothing. :lol:
VikingLord wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:03 pm You touched on most of the same points I made above, and I wholeheartedly agree with you, especially on the willingness to learn from mistakes, which is a key to success not just in coaching, but in life generally.

If the defense keeps playing as well as they have I don't see how Flores doesn't get another shot as a head coach somewhere next year. It would be fantastic if he stayed just out of principle and a desire to build a truly great defense in Minnesota, but I'm not sure its realistic to expect him to do that if he has a chance to be a head coach elsewhere.
I wholeheartedly think he will get another HC chance. The NFL is about winning over all else. If a team thinks he will help them win, they'll make him an offer. He's simply too good of an actual coach from what I've seen. I'd put money on it.

Fantasy land would be we keep the young offensive and defensive minds together for a decade plus. It "feels" like there is so much potential with both guys. I just want to see KOC be more willing to adapt! : )
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Re: Vikings at Raiders

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His lawsuit won't help him get a HC job, but many great coordinators are not great head coaches and Flores is probably one of them.

Finishing out the season without Kirk, vikings really need to get run game going to compliment the defense they have built with Flores.
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