OTA's Thread

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Thaumaturgist
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by Thaumaturgist »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:04 pm
Thaumaturgist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:27 pm

It's the label that's been created to shut down any differing dialog about said player. Don't let the name calling get to you. It's not supposed to be allowed, but is for some reason.



You see, it's much easier to just label someone who doesn't agree with you on a particular topic as a "hater" than to refute the content of the post and/or just walk away....
I've NEVER tried to shut down JJ. I'm just stating what is clearly factual. He's against Cousins. He thinks he's the wrong QB for the Vikings and will be thrilled the moment we get rid of him. I don't get what is wrong with the word hater. If hater is a bad word than detractor. What's the difference? I accepted Supporter or Stan for myself. It's not good fan bad fan stuff. It's just a question of perception. How do we perceive our QB. Good, Average, Bad or whatever.
Nah, you can't spin it that way... You've been labeling posters as 'Haters' for a long time. There is a huge difference between saying it seems poster x perceives player y as a good, bad, terrible whatever... labeling the player... VS saying poster x IS a player y whatever. Just because you don't use the words 'Bad/Good' Fan. You in essence are calling them a 'bad fan' for thinking differently about a player than you do. Can you not see that? You can't seem to let it go. You seem to have the opinion that Cousins is the best QB of all time, and I'm OK with that. Others seem to think that Cousins is awful and I'm OK with that. I honestly don't know what to think of Cousins... There is good and bad that goes with him, hence the polarizing views of him. Either way calling someone a 'cousins lover' or someone else a 'cousins hater' really does nothing to further the argument, and is almost certain to not convince anyone of anything... Of course that's not your goal is it? To convince anyone.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Thaumaturgist wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:28 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:04 pm
I've NEVER tried to shut down JJ. I'm just stating what is clearly factual. He's against Cousins. He thinks he's the wrong QB for the Vikings and will be thrilled the moment we get rid of him. I don't get what is wrong with the word hater. If hater is a bad word than detractor. What's the difference? I accepted Supporter or Stan for myself. It's not good fan bad fan stuff. It's just a question of perception. How do we perceive our QB. Good, Average, Bad or whatever.
Nah, you can't spin it that way... You've been labeling posters as 'Haters' for a long time. There is a huge difference between saying it seems poster x perceives player y as a good, bad, terrible whatever... labeling the player... VS saying poster x IS a player y whatever. Just because you don't use the words 'Bad/Good' Fan. You in essence are calling them a 'bad fan' for thinking differently about a player than you do. Can you not see that? You can't seem to let it go. You seem to have the opinion that Cousins is the best QB of all time, and I'm OK with that. Others seem to think that Cousins is awful and I'm OK with that. I honestly don't know what to think of Cousins... There is good and bad that goes with him, hence the polarizing views of him. Either way calling someone a 'cousins lover' or someone else a 'cousins hater' really does nothing to further the argument, and is almost certain to not convince anyone of anything... Of course that's not your goal is it? To convince anyone.
Any player I hate on I own it. If somebody calls me a hater of that player I will say "yes I sure am." If you want to call me a Cousins supporter or Stan I'm 100% OK with that. I am by no means calling JJ a bad fan for very much disliking Kirk. I just think he's wrong in his evaluation.
As far as my goal goes convincing anyone of anything is never going to happen. My goal is to share information and learn something myself.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by StumpHunter »

allday1991 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:04 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:30 am
As I wrote above, that stat is not true and neither is the stat you are posting about play action where Kirk had the 14th highest play action rate of any QB last year.

On top of that, many believe that KOC was not retained in Washington because he refused to run play action:
https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2020/1/21 ... f-2020-nfl


I haven’t seen anything suggesting he wasn’t the 4th most pressured qb and the 2 most hit.
You haven't seen anything suggesting he was the 4th most pressure/2nd most hit either. PFF has him as the 15th most pressured QB per dropback in the regular season: https://premium.pff.com/nfl/positions/2 ... inimum=50p:

If you think I am lying feel free to pay for the premium package and prove it.

However, if you think the Vikings Oline was that bad, you must be really discouraged to see that the only thing the Vikings did to improve it was add two bad veteran guards to compete with our current bad guard. Outside of Udoh who is not being replaced by anything good, that 2nd worst Oline is going to be the exact same.
Cousins registered 93 pass plays under center w/o play action, the next closest was Mac Jones at 55, and no other player had more than 36.
So wait, your issue isn't that we didn't do enough PA, it is that we did too much under center w/o play action? Weird take but okay.
I find whatever he did in Washington irrelevant, it was a team with half the roster we have, play calling for the two teams will look polar opposite.
How good the talent is on a team is irrelevant and if you have bad players who are at their best running PA, then that is what you run. Haskins was at his best running PA and his OC should have called lots of PA for him.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by fiestavike »

allday1991 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:04 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:30 am
As I wrote above, that stat is not true and neither is the stat you are posting about play action where Kirk had the 14th highest play action rate of any QB last year.

On top of that, many believe that KOC was not retained in Washington because he refused to run play action:
https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2020/1/21 ... f-2020-nfl


I haven’t seen anything suggesting he wasn’t the 4th most pressured qb and the 2 most hit. Cousins registered 93 pass plays under center w/o play action, the next closest was Mac Jones at 55, and no other player had more than 36.

I find whatever he did in Washington irrelevant, it was a team with half the roster we have, play calling for the two teams will look polar opposite.
To be fair to the OL, one of the knocks on Kirk is that he doesn't let it rip until he sees it open. He doesn't trust it until he sees it. To whatever extent that is true, it would increase the number of pressures and hits a QB is going to take.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by VikingsVictorious »

fiestavike wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:06 am
allday1991 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:04 pm


I haven’t seen anything suggesting he wasn’t the 4th most pressured qb and the 2 most hit. Cousins registered 93 pass plays under center w/o play action, the next closest was Mac Jones at 55, and no other player had more than 36.

I find whatever he did in Washington irrelevant, it was a team with half the roster we have, play calling for the two teams will look polar opposite.
To be fair to the OL, one of the knocks on Kirk is that he doesn't let it rip until he sees it open. He doesn't trust it until he sees it. To whatever extent that is true, it would increase the number of pressures and hits a QB is going to take.
Cousins is brave enough to stand in the pocket and risk the hit to give more time for a big play. There's a fine line between holding the ball too long and bailing out too soon. His being one of the least sacked QBs despite all the pressures and knock downs last year is a great indicator that he's doing that just right.
Last edited by VikingsVictorious on Fri May 27, 2022 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by fiestavike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:24 am
fiestavike wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:06 am

To be fair to the OL, one of the knocks on Kirk is that he doesn't let it rip until he sees it open. He doesn't trust it until he sees it. To whatever extent that is true, it would increase the number of pressures and hits a QB is going to take.
Cousins is brave enough to stand in the pocket and risk the hit to give more time for a big play. There's a fine line between holding the ball too long and bailing out too soon. I think Cousins does it just right.
I'm not saying 'he holds the ball too long'. I'm saying he doesn't trust it until he sees it, and doesn't throw with the level of anticipation that top notch NFL QBs throw it with. In this era, that doesn't get him killed like it would have in the past, and it probably reduces his interception number, but it probably leads to more stalled drives, fumbles, and missed opportunities too.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by VikingsVictorious »

fiestavike wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:28 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:24 am
Cousins is brave enough to stand in the pocket and risk the hit to give more time for a big play. There's a fine line between holding the ball too long and bailing out too soon. His being one of the least sacked QBs despite all the pressures and knock downs last year is a great indicator that he's doing that just right.
I'm not saying 'he holds the ball too long'. I'm saying he doesn't trust it until he sees it, and doesn't throw with the level of anticipation that top notch NFL QBs throw it with. In this era, that doesn't get him killed like it would have in the past, and it probably reduces his interception number, but it probably leads to more stalled drives, fumbles, and missed opportunities too.
It sounds to me like you're calling him a coward. Too afraid to throw the pass if there's any chance of something going wrong. He's actually very courageous holding the ball just the right amount of time to make the play. He is making the right choice on how long to hold the ball. He is making the right call on when to make the pass and when not to. His anticipation is just fine. The numbers make that perfectly clear.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:06 pm
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:02 pm

I dont even know Kirk. I just KNOW he will never come close to bringing us a chapionship. Would rather waste this year with a bridge QB, and have all the cap space once Cousins left.
You KNOW something that is flat out impossible to know. Do you dislike being called a Cousins hater? If I thought like you I would totally embrace being called a Cousins hater. I'd be proud to wear that label. What word do you want to refer to your stance against Cousins as our QB. I will refer to you that way and that way only. Does detractor seem appropriate?
I dislike the guy and think he is unable to lead this team to a SB victory, like other QBs that are paid like he is, have done. I hate the need for certain people to put labels on everyone.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by fiestavike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:33 am
fiestavike wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:28 am

I'm not saying 'he holds the ball too long'. I'm saying he doesn't trust it until he sees it, and doesn't throw with the level of anticipation that top notch NFL QBs throw it with. In this era, that doesn't get him killed like it would have in the past, and it probably reduces his interception number, but it probably leads to more stalled drives, fumbles, and missed opportunities too.
Obviously he is making the right choice on how long to hold the ball. He is making the right call on when to make the pass and when not to. His anticipation is just fine. The numbers make that perfectly clear.
Look, I'm not trying to take a cheap shot at Kirk. If you like him that's fine, but that level of analysis is just subpar. Think it through, not as some petty argument for or against Kirk Cousins. Let's both assume that Kirk is a really really good NFL QB. Maybe try thinking about how Kirk Cousins could improve--assuming we don't think he is perfect.

Could throwing with anticipation be one those areas of possible improvement? Just for fun, let's assume it isn't. How could Kirk improve in your view?
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by VikingsVictorious »

fiestavike wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:45 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:33 am
Obviously he is making the right choice on how long to hold the ball. He is making the right call on when to make the pass and when not to. His anticipation is just fine. The numbers make that perfectly clear.
Look, I'm not trying to take a cheap shot at Kirk. If you like him that's fine, but that level of analysis is just subpar. Think it through, not as some petty argument for or against Kirk Cousins. Let's both assume that Kirk is a really really good NFL QB. Maybe try thinking about how Kirk Cousins could improve--assuming we don't think he is perfect.

Could throwing with anticipation be one those areas of possible improvement? Just for fun, let's assume it isn't. How could Kirk improve in your view?
I think there are so many myths created about Kirk that it really bothers me. Check down Charlie for example is such BS. I've read how he's afraid to take a hit which has clearly been debunked here. He's only good when everything is perfect. Give that one a rest with our line things are almost never perfect.

He could improve by getting bigger, stronger, and faster. Than his running game would be improved. Extending plays with clever movement/scrambling would be an improvement. I'll grant that he could be better at pulling a great play out of his a.. like Wilson and Rodgers do. Improvisation might be the word for that. He's super accurate, but he could get more accurate. He's really solid to great in most aspects of QB play.
Last edited by VikingsVictorious on Fri May 27, 2022 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by VikingsVictorious »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:43 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:06 pm
You KNOW something that is flat out impossible to know. Do you dislike being called a Cousins hater? If I thought like you I would totally embrace being called a Cousins hater. I'd be proud to wear that label. What word do you want to refer to your stance against Cousins as our QB. I will refer to you that way and that way only. Does detractor seem appropriate?
I dislike the guy and think he is unable to lead this team to a SB victory, like other QBs that are paid like he is, have done. I hate the need for certain people to put labels on everyone.
I presume you are referring to me putting labels on everyone. Are you labeling me a labeler? What label have I placed on PHP, Bowhunter, Cliff, Fiestavike, Kapp, VikeinMontana etc...........

Is detractor a label. Do I need to type a paragraph or two when discussing your admitted dislike for Cousins that could simply be encompassed in one word.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:24 am
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:43 am

I dislike the guy and think he is unable to lead this team to a SB victory, like other QBs that are paid like he is, have done. I hate the need for certain people to put labels on everyone.
I presume you are referring to me putting labels on everyone. Are you labeling me a labeler? What label have I placed on PHP, Bowhunter, Cliff, Fiestavike, Kapp, VikeinMontana etc...........

Is detractor a label. Do I need to type a paragraph or two when discussing your admitted dislike for Cousins that could simply be encompassed in one word.
Dont do anything just let it go.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by VikingsVictorious »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:27 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:24 am
I presume you are referring to me putting labels on everyone. Are you labeling me a labeler? What label have I placed on PHP, Bowhunter, Cliff, Fiestavike, Kapp, VikeinMontana etc...........

Is detractor a label. Do I need to type a paragraph or two when discussing your admitted dislike for Cousins that could simply be encompassed in one word.
Dont do anything just let it go.
I have enjoyed sharing thoughts and information with you, but If you want to have zero interaction with me so be it. I will respect that.
Or would you like to have interaction with me on other subjects besides Kirk.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:24 am
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:43 am

I dislike the guy and think he is unable to lead this team to a SB victory, like other QBs that are paid like he is, have done. I hate the need for certain people to put labels on everyone.
I presume you are referring to me putting labels on everyone. Are you labeling me a labeler? What label have I placed on PHP, Bowhunter, Cliff, Fiestavike, Kapp, VikeinMontana etc...........

Is detractor a label. Do I need to type a paragraph or two when discussing your admitted dislike for Cousins that could simply be encompassed in one word.
"Hater" implies an irrational opinion of a player, when the reality of it is JJ has the same opinion most NFL fans have of Kirk Cousins: That he isn't good enough. Something he has proven his entire career.

So if you really want to label someone who doesn't want Kirk Cousins as their QB, you can just call them a normal NFL fan.
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Re: OTA's Thread

Post by fiestavike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:12 am
fiestavike wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:45 am

Look, I'm not trying to take a cheap shot at Kirk. If you like him that's fine, but that level of analysis is just subpar. Think it through, not as some petty argument for or against Kirk Cousins. Let's both assume that Kirk is a really really good NFL QB. Maybe try thinking about how Kirk Cousins could improve--assuming we don't think he is perfect.

Could throwing with anticipation be one those areas of possible improvement? Just for fun, let's assume it isn't. How could Kirk improve in your view?
I think there are so many myths created about Kirk that it really bothers me. Check down Charlie for example is such BS. I've read how he's afraid to take a hit which has clearly been debunked here. He's only good when everything is perfect. Give that one a rest with our line things are almost never perfect.

He could improve by getting bigger, stronger, and faster. Than his running game would be improved. Extending plays with clever movement/scrambling would be an improvement. I'll grant that he could be better at pulling a great play out of his a.. like Wilson and Rodgers do. He's super accurate, but he could get more accurate. He's really solid to great in most aspects of QB play.
Ok, I think that at least gives us something to work with, and somewhere for the conversation to go. Extending plays/scrambling/and pulling a great play out of his backside would all be maybe categorized as 'improvisation'. I think that's another way of saying Kirk doesn't produce many good outcomes when plays go off schedule--he doesn't generally improvise well. That's one of the common criticisms you mention above, and it seems that in principle we all agree on that now, at least to some degree.

Another common criticism of Kirk is lack of composure. Kirk has some real blonde, dingy moments in pressure situations on his reel. We could set aside the other possible dimensions of this and just limit it to the impact it might have in improvising. It might be a factor there.

If we can accept that Kirk could be better at improvising, we can see how that other common criticism--that Kirk doesn't generally throw into contested situations, or throw until he sees it open--could be a compounding problem. Being able to minimize bad plays, or convert on a slightly higher percentage of critical downs, perhaps requires slightly better ability at one or the other of those two skills, but they are both areas where Kirk has a little bit of room to improve. The net effect is too many short, empty possessions and fewer victories. One or two conversions in those areas is often the difference between winning and losing, so while it's not always a glaring deficiency in QB play, it is, perhaps, an invisible deficiency--one that doesn't show up in the box scores, one that most fans cannot see--which is actually fairly significant when it comes to stringing together victories.
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