Top Tier QB's

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VikingsVictorious
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:23 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:47 pm I guess I could chart every 3rd down of every Vikings game and compare that to the opponents win loss record. Is it the teams final record at the end of the season that we count for winning team or is it the teams record at the time we played them? Nope I'm not going to dig that deep.
The great thing is, you don't have to do all of that, because someone else already did and I provided you with the numbers they found.
Provide me with the link.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

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VikingLord wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:45 pm I think it is worth saying that Kirk's overall performance is probably good enough to get the Vikings into contention provided the defense and special teams are better and the Vikings stay healthy.

Is it enough to get them over the top? I'm not sure about that, because at the very top the difference between the winner and loser is exceedingly small, so any flaws or weaknesses will be magnified, but no QB wins without a solid team around him and no team wins without solid play from the QB in crunch time.

As Warner pointed out, Cousins can do better, and I'm sure Kirk would agree with that. Warner's observations and criticisms are valid. So this is the season where Cousins can show he understands when he's in those situations that might have gotten under his skin before and rise above them this time. If he can do that, the sky should be the limit for this Vikings team. If he can't, then I like their chances of making the playoffs, but not necessarily their chances of winning the Superbowl.

On a slightly different note, this is the first season in a long time where I can honestly say I'm excited about the team, mostly because there are so many unknowns right now and the team is brimming with talent. For most of the Zimmer years I thought they had some talent, but serious flaws as well. This year they seem pretty strong all around. The potential for a really good or even great season seems to be there, and I get that sense even with Cousins because I really do think KOC was an ideal choice to coach him and the offense.

I've just got a feeling about this year.
I fully agree with the bolded above, but certain posters have already decided we can have no success with Kirk in the QB position. Must be depressing being omniscient and knowing there is no hope.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingLord wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:45 pm I think it is worth saying that Kirk's overall performance is probably good enough to get the Vikings into contention provided the defense and special teams are better and the Vikings stay healthy.

Is it enough to get them over the top? I'm not sure about that, because at the very top the difference between the winner and loser is exceedingly small, so any flaws or weaknesses will be magnified, but no QB wins without a solid team around him and no team wins without solid play from the QB in crunch time.

As Warner pointed out, Cousins can do better, and I'm sure Kirk would agree with that. Warner's observations and criticisms are valid. So this is the season where Cousins can show he understands when he's in those situations that might have gotten under his skin before and rise above them this time. If he can do that, the sky should be the limit for this Vikings team. If he can't, then I like their chances of making the playoffs, but not necessarily their chances of winning the Superbowl.

On a slightly different note, this is the first season in a long time where I can honestly say I'm excited about the team, mostly because there are so many unknowns right now and the team is brimming with talent. For most of the Zimmer years I thought they had some talent, but serious flaws as well. This year they seem pretty strong all around. The potential for a really good or even great season seems to be there, and I get that sense even with Cousins because I really do think KOC was an ideal choice to coach him and the offense.

I've just got a feeling about this year.
I feel the same way. I just have a weird feeling about this year that this team is going to be really good. I think we beat GB Sunday. Something about this team right now
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

Looks like that how dominate you have to play to make Cousins effective.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by CharVike »

phantom wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:57 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:18 pm
What do you mean by real deal? There are lots of very good QBs who have not won the Super Bowl over the last 4 seasons. Hopefully we do it this season.
Guys like Wilson and Mahomes are the real deal to me. Kirks the only QB I know of in the last 4 years to get a team that just went to the NFC Championship game and was consider a Super Bowl favorite his 1st year. We went from contender to pretender. That's what great players do. They make a good team average (sarcasm)
Well real deal Wilson just went back to Seattle for a game and it didn't work out to good. He let that joke beat him. Wilson won a SB but don't you think the defense and running game deserves any credit? They had the LOB defense and Marshawn Lynch to hand the ball off to. Trey Lance should lead the 49ers to the SB this year just based on what that team did last year.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

phantom wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:57 pm

Guys like Wilson and Mahomes are the real deal to me. Kirks the only QB I know of in the last 4 years to get a team that just went to the NFC Championship game and was consider a Super Bowl favorite his 1st year. We went from contender to pretender. That's what great players do. They make a good team average (sarcasm)
Mahomes, yeah. Wilson hasnt been overly relevant in a few years. And just got beat by Geno Smith.

Cousins was signed to a team where the coach didnt want him from the jump. He went to a team ran by a dinosaurs. A team that had a lot of blind luck in 2017 and wouldnt have gone anywhere if it wasnt for its defense which was #1 in the NFL. When Cousins signed, things started to immediately go south with Zimmer. 2017 was Zimmers peak. And then Spielman signed a QB Zim didnt want and the demise to Zimmer started. That has nothing to do with Cousins IMO. That has everything to do with Zimmer. It's not Cousins fault Zimmer didnt want him and wanted a game managing QB that would dink and dunk, manage clock and hand off to our RB. This is also where the rift started with Spielman and Zimmer. Whether they were SB favorites or not, it's a new year. Do you ever notice the teams that are "SB favorites" every year that dont win the SB?

2018 is where Zim slowly started to wear on guys. Guys started to notice the talent they had but they werent going anywhere. Answer me this....

Scenario A (our current scenario): Zimmer is fired, KOC is hired, Cousins is kept. New culture is brought to the team, innovative offense. We dominate week 1 against a legitimate contender.

Scenario B: Cousins is traded/released, Zimmer is kept, offense stays in the stone age, Zimmer keeps someone like Keenum or finds your Teddy type game manager.

^What scenario looks to be the correct one? Which scenario would've gotten this team the furthest and will get the most out of the talent we have? Was it the team not playing for Cousins or not playing for Zimmer (I think this is an obvious one at this point)?

All in all, when Cousins was signed here, this team turned into a messy situation. And as much as people think otherwise, it wasnt due to Cousins. It was the rift between leadership and lack of innovation when you had more talent than you knew what to do with.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by Maelstrom88 »

Zimmer is delusional. He would never win a Super Bowl without a QB better than Teddy/Case. Cousins is a top 10 QB minimum. I think he's top 5. He's very smart with the football, a good pocket passer, and has shown he's clutch against New Orleans and with several comebacks last year. You never have to worry about him getting in trouble with the law. I'm trying to think of 5 Qbs I'd rather have. Not Wilson. Not Carr. Not Tua or Dak.

I'd say Brady, Burrow, Allen, Rodgers, Mahomes are top 5 I guess. After that I'd put Kirk. That's not bad. He's at least as good as Stafford.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by CharVike »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:00 am
phantom wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:57 pm

Guys like Wilson and Mahomes are the real deal to me. Kirks the only QB I know of in the last 4 years to get a team that just went to the NFC Championship game and was consider a Super Bowl favorite his 1st year. We went from contender to pretender. That's what great players do. They make a good team average (sarcasm)
Mahomes, yeah. Wilson hasnt been overly relevant in a few years. And just got beat by Geno Smith.

Cousins was signed to a team where the coach didnt want him from the jump. He went to a team ran by a dinosaurs. A team that had a lot of blind luck in 2017 and wouldnt have gone anywhere if it wasnt for its defense which was #1 in the NFL. When Cousins signed, things started to immediately go south with Zimmer. 2017 was Zimmers peak. And then Spielman signed a QB Zim didnt want and the demise to Zimmer started. That has nothing to do with Cousins IMO. That has everything to do with Zimmer. It's not Cousins fault Zimmer didnt want him and wanted a game managing QB that would dink and dunk, manage clock and hand off to our RB. This is also where the rift started with Spielman and Zimmer. Whether they were SB favorites or not, it's a new year. Do you ever notice the teams that are "SB favorites" every year that dont win the SB?

2018 is where Zim slowly started to wear on guys. Guys started to notice the talent they had but they werent going anywhere. Answer me this....

Scenario A (our current scenario): Zimmer is fired, KOC is hired, Cousins is kept. New culture is brought to the team, innovative offense. We dominate week 1 against a legitimate contender.

Scenario B: Cousins is traded/released, Zimmer is kept, offense stays in the stone age, Zimmer keeps someone like Keenum or finds your Teddy type game manager.

^What scenario looks to be the correct one? Which scenario would've gotten this team the furthest and will get the most out of the talent we have? Was it the team not playing for Cousins or not playing for Zimmer (I think this is an obvious one at this point)?

All in all, when Cousins was signed here, this team turned into a messy situation. And as much as people think otherwise, it wasnt due to Cousins. It was the rift between leadership and lack of innovation when you had more talent than you knew what to do with.
I agree with this. Zim said him and Speilman didn't talk in months. They stopped talking once Cousins was signed. Zim wanted the entire focus to be on the D. He wanted a Dilfer/Ravens type of deal. The problem is he never had the ability to build a defense like that. Not many do. His pound the rock, play great D and kicked FGs is early 70s. Cousins never fitted that. Neither does JJ who I'm sure Zim wanted no part of.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

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CharVike wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:42 amI agree with this. Zim said him and Speilman didn't talk in months. They stopped talking once Cousins was signed. Zim wanted the entire focus to be on the D. He wanted a Dilfer/Ravens type of deal. The problem is he never had the ability to build a defense like that. Not many do. His pound the rock, play great D and kicked FGs is early 70s. Cousins never fitted that. Neither does JJ who I'm sure Zim wanted no part of.
This is where it begins to be Spielman's fault. You know your coach. You know the team he's trying to build and what works for him and it *did* actually work. They were in the NFCC in 2019, you don't get that far if your ideology is completely worthless. You're not the Vikings 3rd best coach by win percentage if your style is complete crap.

Spielman took it upon himself to go against Zimmer's philosophy of building a team and then everyone's surprised when it doesn't go well.

Don't get me wrong, it was time for Zimmer to go, but it was ultimately Spielman that wrecked the chemistry of the team by going against the head coach's design.
Mike Zimmer wrote:What I don’t want to do is say, OK, this is the one thing – we’re going to do this and we’re going to take away from the rest of the things that have gotten us to this point. So that’s the other thing.

Rob Brzezinski, our cap guy, does an outstanding job of saying, ‘okay, if we do this, then we’re going to have to give up here. If we do this, then we’re going to have to do this. If we do this, we can add here or we can add there.’ I think all those things come into play.”
When the HC specifically tells you that by spending too much on a QB his system breaks down, and then you go spend a bunch on a QB, why is anybody surprised that it broke down?
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

phantom wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:56 pm Looks like that how dominate you have to play to make Cousins effective.
Someday I hope you look back at this take and see just how bad it is.

On Sunday, Kirk Cousins was 7-of-14 for 136 yards (10.5 yards per attempt) while under pressure. PFF graded him at 86 out of 100 under pressure. Meanwhile, Aaron Rodgers threw for 15 yards while under pressure. FIFTEEN! Those are the facts. So tell me, given those facts, who was the better of the two under pressure on Sunday? It should be obvious.

Many of us wanted to see what effect KOC would have on Cousins’ play, specifically whether KOC could teach Kirk to “play with a quiet mind.” Performing under pressure has been a weakness for Cousins throughout his career. Regardless of his history, it’s pretty obvious he took a step in the right direction against the Packers. It was the best I’ve ever seen him play under pressure. If you can’t see that, then your vitriol is blinding you. And that’s sad because you might miss something special this year.

It’s obvious you can’t stand Kirk Cousins. But think about watching this season with an open mind. You might enjoy it more.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:02 pm
phantom wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:56 pm Looks like that how dominate you have to play to make Cousins effective.
Someday I hope you look back at this take and see just how bad it is.

On Sunday, Kirk Cousins was 7-of-14 for 136 yards (10.5 yards per attempt) while under pressure. PFF graded him at 86 out of 100 under pressure. Meanwhile, Aaron Rodgers threw for 15 yards while under pressure. FIFTEEN! Those are the facts. So tell me, given those facts, who was the better of the two under pressure on Sunday? It should be obvious.

Many of us wanted to see what effect KOC would have on Cousins’ play, specifically whether KOC could teach Kirk to “play with a quiet mind.” Performing under pressure has been a weakness for Cousins throughout his career. Regardless of his history, it’s pretty obvious he took a step in the right direction against the Packers. It was the best I’ve ever seen him play under pressure. If you can’t see that, then your vitriol is blinding you. And that’s sad because you might miss something special this year.

It’s obvious you can’t stand Kirk Cousins. But think about watching this season with an open mind. You might enjoy it more.
Little early to be saying that after one win. He already has failed, If you can't see that then your bias because you love Kirk. I had an open mind when they brought him in here. You better bring it if your Kirk regardless, of system or coach within 3 seasons a Super Bowl win ideal, but a least 3 winnings season over 12 wins if your the real deal upgrade. Vikes proved to win without him and never needed him. I though Zimmer was OK, and the 2017 probably saved his job. Sounds more like you hate Zimmer. Don't tell me you would not be pissed if someone pissed and Sh&^ on your brand new rug. You can take any who can throw a ball decent to make the throws to JJ who was 5 steps open. Cousins has had controversy everywhere he goes. Washington and Now MN. Some of that has to be him. Please don't write a book next time. I work 40 hours a week and don't have time.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

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Kirk on the Dan Patrick Show


We find out his wife dresses him and somehow I'm not surprised. :lol:
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

phantom wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:23 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:02 pm
Someday I hope you look back at this take and see just how bad it is.

On Sunday, Kirk Cousins was 7-of-14 for 136 yards (10.5 yards per attempt) while under pressure. PFF graded him at 86 out of 100 under pressure. Meanwhile, Aaron Rodgers threw for 15 yards while under pressure. FIFTEEN! Those are the facts. So tell me, given those facts, who was the better of the two under pressure on Sunday? It should be obvious.

Many of us wanted to see what effect KOC would have on Cousins’ play, specifically whether KOC could teach Kirk to “play with a quiet mind.” Performing under pressure has been a weakness for Cousins throughout his career. Regardless of his history, it’s pretty obvious he took a step in the right direction against the Packers. It was the best I’ve ever seen him play under pressure. If you can’t see that, then your vitriol is blinding you. And that’s sad because you might miss something special this year.

It’s obvious you can’t stand Kirk Cousins. But think about watching this season with an open mind. You might enjoy it more.
Little early to be saying that after one win. He already has failed, If you can't see that then your bias because you love Kirk. I had an open mind when they brought him in here. You better bring it if your Kirk regardless, of system or coach within 3 seasons a Super Bowl win ideal, but a least 3 winnings season over 12 wins if your the real deal upgrade. Vikes proved to win without him and never needed him. I though Zimmer was OK, and the 2017 probably saved his job. Sounds more like you hate Zimmer. Don't tell me you would not be pissed if someone pissed and Sh&^ on your brand new rug. You can take any who can throw a ball decent to make the throws to JJ who was 5 steps open. Cousins has had controversy everywhere he goes. Washington and Now MN. Some of that has to be him. Please don't write a book next time. I work 40 hours a week and don't have time.
You know what? I tried to be civil, but you decided to go the other direction. So here’s my response. I’ll keep it short, since your time is so much more valuable than everyone else’s.

1. You’re wrong. I don’t “love Kirk.” I’ve been critical when he stinks, and complimentary when he plays well.

2. I’ll write as much as I damn well please.

3. If you don’t like it, foe me. You wouldn’t be the first.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Phantom you don't have to be a fan of Kirk, but since he's our QB for the next two years at least it wouldn't hurt :lol: . You happen to be one of the few though who seem to totally despise him with no rational reason for it. You assume since our record didn't get better when we acquired him that it must be all his fault and he sucks. There's so much more to it.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by vikeinmontana »

phantom wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:23 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:02 pm
Someday I hope you look back at this take and see just how bad it is.

On Sunday, Kirk Cousins was 7-of-14 for 136 yards (10.5 yards per attempt) while under pressure. PFF graded him at 86 out of 100 under pressure. Meanwhile, Aaron Rodgers threw for 15 yards while under pressure. FIFTEEN! Those are the facts. So tell me, given those facts, who was the better of the two under pressure on Sunday? It should be obvious.

Many of us wanted to see what effect KOC would have on Cousins’ play, specifically whether KOC could teach Kirk to “play with a quiet mind.” Performing under pressure has been a weakness for Cousins throughout his career. Regardless of his history, it’s pretty obvious he took a step in the right direction against the Packers. It was the best I’ve ever seen him play under pressure. If you can’t see that, then your vitriol is blinding you. And that’s sad because you might miss something special this year.

It’s obvious you can’t stand Kirk Cousins. But think about watching this season with an open mind. You might enjoy it more.
Little early to be saying that after one win. He already has failed, If you can't see that then your bias because you love Kirk. I had an open mind when they brought him in here. You better bring it if your Kirk regardless, of system or coach within 3 seasons a Super Bowl win ideal, but a least 3 winnings season over 12 wins if your the real deal upgrade. Vikes proved to win without him and never needed him. I though Zimmer was OK, and the 2017 probably saved his job. Sounds more like you hate Zimmer. Don't tell me you would not be pissed if someone pissed and Sh&^ on your brand new rug. You can take any who can throw a ball decent to make the throws to JJ who was 5 steps open. Cousins has had controversy everywhere he goes. Washington and Now MN. Some of that has to be him. Please don't write a book next time. I work 40 hours a week and don't have time.
:lol:

That was awesome. I'm going to read your entire response, respond with a paragraph of my own, and then tell you not to post so long.

This board is awesome.
i'm ready for a beer.