A different take on Elflein

[YikesVikes]

All season long we have seen play after play of Elflein getting his lunch taken by some of the DTs we have gone against. I was 2 seconds from creating a post insulting the vikings for not benching him. However, I listen to SKOL North today and Alex was on talking about how Bradbury and the OL coach aren't sliding help to Elf's side when Bradbury is "naked" and has no one to block. I know this doesn't excuse Pat's play but that has to be an egregious mistake! They pointed to the KC game and Chris Jones (the only guy on their DL worth a damn) is manned up with Pat (by design) and we continue to slide help to double the other guy. After hearing that, I think blame needs to be shared among these three people evenly.

[StumpHunter]

All season long we have seen play after play of Elflein getting his lunch taken by some of the DTs we have gone against. I was 2 seconds from creating a post insulting the vikings for not benching him. However, I listen to SKOL North today and Alex was on talking about how Bradbury and the OL coach aren't sliding help to Elf's side when Bradbury is "naked" and has no one to block. I know this doesn't excuse Pat's play but that has to be an egregious mistake! They pointed to the KC game and Chris Jones (the only guy on their DL worth a damn) is manned up with Pat (by design) and we continue to slide help to double the other guy. After hearing that, I think blame needs to be shared among these three people evenly.

Interesting. That also implies Kline is struggling more than we think and needs help.

[Dames]

All season long we have seen play after play of Elflein getting his lunch taken by some of the DTs we have gone against. I was 2 seconds from creating a post insulting the vikings for not benching him. However, I listen to SKOL North today and Alex was on talking about how Bradbury and the OL coach aren't sliding help to Elf's side when Bradbury is "naked" and has no one to block. I know this doesn't excuse Pat's play but that has to be an egregious mistake! They pointed to the KC game and Chris Jones (the only guy on their DL worth a damn) is manned up with Pat (by design) and we continue to slide help to double the other guy. After hearing that, I think blame needs to be shared among these three people evenly.

Interesting. That also implies Kline is struggling more than we think and needs help.

Chris Jones was a huge problem for us on Sunday, and hearing that explanation concerns me. Stump is probably right about Kilne being part of the problem.

But hey, it's definitely better than last year, so there's that.

[YikesVikes]

All season long we have seen play after play of Elflein getting his lunch taken by some of the DTs we have gone against. I was 2 seconds from creating a post insulting the vikings for not benching him. However, I listen to SKOL North today and Alex was on talking about how Bradbury and the OL coach aren't sliding help to Elf's side when Bradbury is "naked" and has no one to block. I know this doesn't excuse Pat's play but that has to be an egregious mistake! They pointed to the KC game and Chris Jones (the only guy on their DL worth a damn) is manned up with Pat (by design) and we continue to slide help to double the other guy. After hearing that, I think blame needs to be shared among these three people evenly.

Interesting. That also implies Kline is struggling more than we think and needs help.

Possibly. However, it could be that the rookie is not blocking the right direction. I dont believe that pre-snap, the call would be to ignore Chris Jones and help elsewhere.

[Vikingsguy63]

Yes I agree some help should be given to Elflien but sometimes he needs to hold his own also. I also think some responsibility falls on the Coaching staff for not seeing this. On another note it's been mentioned Elflien maybe still recovering from his injuries in that case put in Samia and give Elflien a break.

[StumpHunter]

Yes I agree some help should be given to Elflien but sometimes he needs to hold his own also. I also think some responsibility falls on the Coaching staff for not seeing this. On another note it's been mentioned Elflien maybe still recovering from his injuries in that case put in Samia and give Elflien a break.

The one consistent failure I have seen out of Zimmer is his unwillingness to bench starting offensive linemen. Remmers, Fusco, Clemmings, Boone, Kahlil, all these guys were absolutely terrible for us in their final seasons as a Viking, and not one was ever benched.

[VikingLord]

Wasn't Kline out with a concussion against Denver?

Hard to say on whether the guards are struggling without a better understanding of how and when Bradbury is supposed to slide right or left. What looks like a lapse in judgment could easily be a pre-snap protection call.

I'd go a little further even and say that the variability in the production from the run game suggests more is going on than one or both guards struggling. If the Vikings were struggling in terms of personnel, it's hard to explain how the run game has been successful between the tackles, but they've piled up a lot of yards in several games this year. Yes, I know Cook and Mattison have been good at breaking tackles or making the first defender miss, but they've had some nice running lanes too.

It's also not like Cousins has been getting buried even under blitz pressure. He's taken some sacks, but apart from the Bears game the protection has been decent.

I wonder if the zone blocking scheme has more to do with it and effective communication up front. It seems like sometimes the pre-snap protection calls miss something and/or the defense just guesses right when the line is pass protecting, while in terms of run blocking there are games where the defense is just selling out to stop it and aggressively attacking the LOS.

And sure, there are times when the OL are just getting beat, but that seems to be happening to everyone at times. It's not a consistent thing and sometimes the defender just deserves a tip of the hat.

[VikingLord]

Yes I agree some help should be given to Elflien but sometimes he needs to hold his own also. I also think some responsibility falls on the Coaching staff for not seeing this. On another note it's been mentioned Elflien maybe still recovering from his injuries in that case put in Samia and give Elflien a break.

The one consistent failure I have seen out of Zimmer is his unwillingness to bench starting offensive linemen. Remmers, Fusco, Clemmings, Boone, Kahlil, all these guys were absolutely terrible for us in their final seasons as a Viking, and not one was ever benched.

Benched in favor of whom?

Your statement reminds me of that line from the movie "Hot Shots Part Deux" where they come to the Topper Harley character played by Charlie Sheen and ask him to go on a critical mission. He asks why they want him, to which they reply "Because you're the best of what's left".

[StumpHunter]

The one consistent failure I have seen out of Zimmer is his unwillingness to bench starting offensive linemen. Remmers, Fusco, Clemmings, Boone, Kahlil, all these guys were absolutely terrible for us in their final seasons as a Viking, and not one was ever benched.

Benched in favor of whom?

Your statement reminds me of that line from the movie "Hot Shots Part Deux" where they come to the Topper Harley character played by Charlie Sheen and ask him to go on a critical mission. He asks why they want him, to which they reply "Because you're the best of what's left".

This year Dozier has been better than Elf when he has gotten in there. Other years they should have been scouring practice squads for upgrades over garbage like Clemmings, Fusco, Boone and Remmers. Kahlil is a tricky one since he plays LT, but you could not find a worse tackle than Clemmings was in 2015 and 2016. You could argue the same for Boone and Remmers.

[J. Kapp 11]

Wasn't Kline out with a concussion against Denver?

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

There have been two games where Dalvin Cook (and the running game in general) has been what anybody would call "shut down" ... against Chicago and against Denver. Kline was inactive with a concussion both games. Coincidence? I don't know. I'm not an expert. But it does seem pertinent.

And to blame Josh Kline for Pat Elflein's problems ... well, it doesn't mesh with what the Vikings themselves say about Kline.

On the Vikings podcast this week following the Denver game, they were talking about Kline being out, and how much of a loss it was. Apparently the team respects the guy GREATLY. Not just his coaches, but his peers, his teammates. They say he's very professional about how he goes about his business, that he sets a great example, and that he's a very good player. This is coming from people who are on the sideline and in the locker room. Sorry, but I'd trust that information over our armchair speculation.

[StumpHunter]

Wasn't Kline out with a concussion against Denver?

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

There have been two games where Dalvin Cook (and the running game in general) has been what anybody would call "shut down" ... against Chicago and against Denver. Kline was inactive with a concussion both games. Coincidence? I don't know. I'm not an expert. But it does seem pertinent.

And to blame Josh Kline for Pat Elflein's problems ... well, it doesn't mesh with what the Vikings themselves say about Kline.

On the Vikings podcast this week following the Denver game, they were talking about Kline being out, and how much of a loss it was. Apparently the team respects the guy GREATLY. Not just his coaches, but his peers, his teammates. They say he's very professional about how he goes about his business, that he sets a great example, and that he's a very good player. This is coming from people who are on the sideline and in the locker room. Sorry, but I'd trust that information over our armchair speculation.

PFF hasn't been too kind to Kline this year. He is the lowest ranked starter on the line ahead of only the rookie Bradbury.

Whether you take that as more evidence of PFF grades being useless or evidence that he has been pretty below average is up to you.

[J. Kapp 11]

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

There have been two games where Dalvin Cook (and the running game in general) has been what anybody would call "shut down" ... against Chicago and against Denver. Kline was inactive with a concussion both games. Coincidence? I don't know. I'm not an expert. But it does seem pertinent.

And to blame Josh Kline for Pat Elflein's problems ... well, it doesn't mesh with what the Vikings themselves say about Kline.

On the Vikings podcast this week following the Denver game, they were talking about Kline being out, and how much of a loss it was. Apparently the team respects the guy GREATLY. Not just his coaches, but his peers, his teammates. They say he's very professional about how he goes about his business, that he sets a great example, and that he's a very good player. This is coming from people who are on the sideline and in the locker room. Sorry, but I'd trust that information over our armchair speculation.

PFF hasn't been too kind to Kline this year. He is the lowest ranked starter on the line ahead of only the rookie Bradbury.

Whether you take that as more evidence of PFF grades being useless or evidence that he has been pretty below average is up to you.

First of all, I never said Kline is all-pro. I said his teammates and coaches say he's a solid pro and someone they respect.

Secondly, I simply have no idea why people give so much credibility to PFF.

A number of us here on this board have made these points multiple times, but I'll make them again. PFF "analysts" have no idea what a offensive lineman's assignment is on a given play. They have no idea what protection the QB has called at the line, no idea of combo blocks or anything else. And while I don't know if it's still the case, about 2 or 3 years ago, any random Joe could work for PFF -- provided they were willing to analyze games for little or no pay. Literally anybody. I've read their online ads for help. Just because Chris Collinsworth (part owner) won't shut up about PFF doesn't mean it's legitimate.

Teammates and coaches vs. the arbitrary ratings of random Joes. The choice is easy for me.

[VikingLord]

PFF hasn't been too kind to Kline this year. He is the lowest ranked starter on the line ahead of only the rookie Bradbury.

Whether you take that as more evidence of PFF grades being useless or evidence that he has been pretty below average is up to you.

Does PFF spell out their grading system?

With that said, I don't dismiss the grade, but I'm just curious how they arrive at it and whether whatever criteria they use tends to emphasize or exaggerate certain types of plays or is weighted towards certain types of schemes. For example, if they heavily weight one-on-one blocks, does that impact guys in zone blocking schemes where it might not be as clear who that player is assigned to block?

I'm honestly asking, because anyone who has delved into the realm of stats knows that there are a lot of ways to evaluate an individual's performance, and depending on what is included in that evaluation, one can arrive at a very different conclusion of the performance.

My general impression of the offensive line so far this year is that they have been pretty solid. Not shut-down solid, but solid. The overall offensive stats tend to support that conclusion. If one looks at sacks given up, rushing performance, or passing performance, there isn't a lot of evidence to suggest the offensive line is a liability. The skill position players can only compensate for so much, so if the OL were not at least competent overall, I think there would be greater evidence of that in the overall offensive stats (as there were last year).

In terms of individual performance, I'd say the best overall based on that eye assessment is probably O'Neill. Elflein has probably stood out the most in a negative way as he's been beaten badly a couple of times and had that rash of holds against the Redskins. Bradbury, Rieff and Jones have been solid, as has Dozier been in relief.

It's not a great OL, but good enough to get the Vikings where they want to go this year IMHO.

[StumpHunter]

PFF hasn't been too kind to Kline this year. He is the lowest ranked starter on the line ahead of only the rookie Bradbury.

Whether you take that as more evidence of PFF grades being useless or evidence that he has been pretty below average is up to you.

Does PFF spell out their grading system?

With that said, I don't dismiss the grade, but I'm just curious how they arrive at it and whether whatever criteria they use tends to emphasize or exaggerate certain types of plays or is weighted towards certain types of schemes. For example, if they heavily weight one-on-one blocks, does that impact guys in zone blocking schemes where it might not be as clear who that player is assigned to block?

I'm honestly asking, because anyone who has delved into the realm of stats knows that there are a lot of ways to evaluate an individual's performance, and depending on what is included in that evaluation, one can arrive at a very different conclusion of the performance.

My general impression of the offensive line so far this year is that they have been pretty solid. Not shut-down solid, but solid. The overall offensive stats tend to support that conclusion. If one looks at sacks given up, rushing performance, or passing performance, there isn't a lot of evidence to suggest the offensive line is a liability. The skill position players can only compensate for so much, so if the OL were not at least competent overall, I think there would be greater evidence of that in the overall offensive stats (as there were last year).

In terms of individual performance, I'd say the best overall based on that eye assessment is probably O'Neill. Elflein has probably stood out the most in a negative way as he's been beaten badly a couple of times and had that rash of holds against the Redskins. Bradbury, Rieff and Jones have been solid, as has Dozier been in relief.

It's not a great OL, but good enough to get the Vikings where they want to go this year IMHO.

They don't break the grade down unless you get the paid version. I do remember reading Elf was in the 40's? in pass blocking and high 70's in run blocking, and the average between the two (with the Vikings running more than passing) is why his grade is so high in PFF. No idea if the same holds true for Kline.

The line IS solid, and could be even better if the Vikings moved on from Elf.

[J. Kapp 11]

PFF hasn't been too kind to Kline this year. He is the lowest ranked starter on the line ahead of only the rookie Bradbury.

Whether you take that as more evidence of PFF grades being useless or evidence that he has been pretty below average is up to you.

Does PFF spell out their grading system?

With that said, I don't dismiss the grade, but I'm just curious how they arrive at it and whether whatever criteria they use tends to emphasize or exaggerate certain types of plays or is weighted towards certain types of schemes. For example, if they heavily weight one-on-one blocks, does that impact guys in zone blocking schemes where it might not be as clear who that player is assigned to block?

I'm honestly asking, because anyone who has delved into the realm of stats knows that there are a lot of ways to evaluate an individual's performance, and depending on what is included in that evaluation, one can arrive at a very different conclusion of the performance.

My general impression of the offensive line so far this year is that they have been pretty solid. Not shut-down solid, but solid. The overall offensive stats tend to support that conclusion. If one looks at sacks given up, rushing performance, or passing performance, there isn't a lot of evidence to suggest the offensive line is a liability. The skill position players can only compensate for so much, so if the OL were not at least competent overall, I think there would be greater evidence of that in the overall offensive stats (as there were last year).

In terms of individual performance, I'd say the best overall based on that eye assessment is probably O'Neill. Elflein has probably stood out the most in a negative way as he's been beaten badly a couple of times and had that rash of holds against the Redskins. Bradbury, Rieff and Jones have been solid, as has Dozier been in relief.

It's not a great OL, but good enough to get the Vikings where they want to go this year IMHO.

They're ambiguous about it.

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They go on to describe how they analyze every play, and how your memory can deceive you, yada, yada. They grade each play on a -2 to +2 value, with 0 being an average grade. Their criteria, literally, are things like "that pass sucked." That's on their website.

But here's the important part of the quoted paragraph. "Our team of 300-plus staff." Those are not ex-NFL players or coaches. How do I know? It's their hiring criteria.

A successful candidate must have:

Demonstrable knowledge of the NFL/ NCAA product and what PFF does.
A very high level of enthusiasm and passion for football and Pro Football Focus.
Excellent interpersonal and communication skills (both written and verbal).
Ability to meet deadlines.
Positive attitude, strong work ethic, and excellent attention to detail.
At least 20 hours of free time per week, with a large amount of this time available on weekends.

And ...

This is not a full-time position, and there are no guarantees it will ever lead to one. You will be required to produce work during the regular season on a deadline, but at your own convenience. While we do pay for high-quality work, if you are doing this purely for financial reward, the position is not for you.

Name me a former NFL player or coach who would offer his expertise for little or no financial reward.

PFF has a network of Average Joes -- guys just like us on this board -- who get to play football nerd and call themselves "analysts" on social media. These Average Joes are the ones who do the grading of players playing a game so complex that most of them couldn't understand it like a coach ... even if an actual coach were sitting in front of the TV with them.

For me, PFF analysis is nothing more than a conversation piece of questionable value. They make a fortune because they sell thousands of subscriptions while paying their people next to nothing. No wonder Chris Collinsworth bought a majority interest. It's easy money.