Vikings Message Board.Com

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:30 pm

The negotiator wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:08 pm
It would be intriguing to speculate if Jackson would have ever flourished in Zimmer’s structure. Going forward it will be interesting to see next year how teams figure out how to stop him. Most important is how long does any running QB like Jackson stay healthy.
Wilson is a smart mobile qb who knows how to get down and avoid big hits. Not sure that Jackson understands the risks at this point. Time will tell. He’s fun to watch.

Defenses will adjust next year and learn to limit what he is doing. We watched that happen a while back, eh? The difference between Jackson and Bob is that Jackson is a runner. Bob wasn't, he was just fast.

It will likely happen sooner than that. I think we'll see Jackson's impact as a runner drop in the playoffs this year.

I think the game is going to go toward more and more running QBs. It is easier than ever to succeed as an NFL QB. The requisite traits to succeed in the passing game have been diminished to the point that the number of human beings capable of playing QB in the NFL has grown exponentially. Many of those players will now be able to run, and why wouldn't you take advantage of that fact? There are now more QBs capable of successfully running an NFL offense at a high level WHO CAN ALSO RUN than there were QBS capable of successfully running an NFL offense at a high level PERIOD, 30 and 40 years ago. Defenses are already behind the 8 ball, adding one MORE element for them to defend makes the task nearly impossible.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:16 pm

The negotiator wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:08 pm
It would be intriguing to speculate if Jackson would have ever flourished in Zimmer’s structure. Going forward it will be interesting to see next year how teams figure out how to stop him. Most important is how long does any running QB like Jackson stay healthy.
Wilson is a smart mobile qb who knows how to get down and avoid big hits. Not sure that Jackson understands the risks at this point. Time will tell. He’s fun to watch.

To take your point further ...

If Jackson's play nets them a Lombardi Trophy AND he gets hurt down the road, will teams begin looking at QBs as 6-year investments rather than 10-15 year investments?

That actually makes a lot of sense. You look at the current active QBs, and only 3 have won a SB on their 2nd,3rd, 4th, etc contract. Brady, Brees and Eli (one of these things is not like the other). Big Ben and Rodgers got extensions before their rookie deals were, up, but they both WOULD have been under their rookie deals had they not gotten those extensions.

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:30 pm

The negotiator wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:08 pm
It would be intriguing to speculate if Jackson would have ever flourished in Zimmer’s structure. Going forward it will be interesting to see next year how teams figure out how to stop him. Most important is how long does any running QB like Jackson stay healthy.
Wilson is a smart mobile qb who knows how to get down and avoid big hits. Not sure that Jackson understands the risks at this point. Time will tell. He’s fun to watch.

Defenses will adjust next year and learn to limit what he is doing. We watched that happen a while back, eh? The difference between Jackson and Bob is that Jackson is a runner. Bob wasn't, he was just fast.

Good point my friend. We have seen. It all over the last 7 years in Washington. I sometimes wish the fans here could jump over to the Extreme Skins site and see the level of
discontent (I’m being kind) with owner Dan Snyder and GM Bruce Allen. Over
11,000 negative posts (being kind) with
387,000 views. Talk about a misery pit with no hope and no future. Then, Kirk comes here, I jump on this site and I think I’m dreaming. A classy organization, great people, world class amenities and a team that has hope and a future. People have their differences here but nothing, absolutely nothing negative to say about the organization as a whole. It’s a whole different culture here. When you have decades of following the Lions (no hope) skins (no hope) and then the Vikings, it takes a little time to adjust to a winning fan base and high expectations. I’ll bet it took me at least 10 minutes to climb out of the pit of despair and yell “at last, at last, thank God I’m free at last”. I enjoy your posts over the years partner. You have had some classics. Great reads. I’ve got way off topic here. Better shut this down.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:30 pm I think the game is going to go toward more and more running QBs. It is easier than ever to succeed as an NFL QB. The requisite traits to succeed in the passing game have been diminished to the point that the number of human beings capable of playing QB in the NFL has grown exponentially. Many of those players will now be able to run, and why wouldn't you take advantage of that fact? There are now more QBs capable of successfully running an NFL offense at a high level WHO CAN ALSO RUN than there were QBS capable of successfully running an NFL offense at a high level PERIOD, 30 and 40 years ago. Defenses are already behind the 8 ball, adding one MORE element for them to defend makes the task nearly impossible.

It’s going to be interesting to see the shelf life of running qb’s. As FSL said
Griffin was just a fast runner, not a smart runner. Jackson is over 1000 yds. That’s a lot of yards but also a ton of hits. There are more running qb’s now than we’ve ever had before. The jury is still out on how long they survive. You have to be lucky to avoid injury. Mahommes was out a few games, Cam Newton has taken a beating. Teddy Bridgewater was hurt.
It can happen to anyone, but running
qb’s IMO are going to be more susceptible to injury once the defenses dial up schemes to contain them. Defensive skill players love to lay a big hit on a running qb because they can once they become a runner. Roughing the passer rules no longer apply. At the end of next year, we will see what impact defenses have made and how many qb’s go down with injury. Not wishing this on anyone.

The negotiator wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:37 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:30 pm I think the game is going to go toward more and more running QBs. It is easier than ever to succeed as an NFL QB. The requisite traits to succeed in the passing game have been diminished to the point that the number of human beings capable of playing QB in the NFL has grown exponentially. Many of those players will now be able to run, and why wouldn't you take advantage of that fact? There are now more QBs capable of successfully running an NFL offense at a high level WHO CAN ALSO RUN than there were QBS capable of successfully running an NFL offense at a high level PERIOD, 30 and 40 years ago. Defenses are already behind the 8 ball, adding one MORE element for them to defend makes the task nearly impossible.

It’s going to be interesting to see the shelf life of running qb’s. As FSL said
Griffin was just a fast runner, not a smart runner. Jackson is over 1000 yds. That’s a lot of yards but also a ton of hits. There are more running qb’s now than we’ve ever had before. The jury is still out on how long they survive. You have to be lucky to avoid injury. Mahommes was out a few games, Cam Newton has taken a beating. Teddy Bridgewater was hurt.
It can happen to anyone, but running
qb’s IMO are going to be more susceptible to injury once the defenses dial up schemes to contain them. Defensive skill players love to lay a big hit on a running qb because they can once they become a runner. Roughing the passer rules no longer apply. At the end of next year, we will see what impact defenses have made and how many qb’s go down with injury. Not wishing this on anyone.

I'm wondering ... does a QB who takes off on a read-option, obviously as a runner, still have the right to slide and not be touched?

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:23 am

The negotiator wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:37 pm

It’s going to be interesting to see the shelf life of running qb’s. As FSL said
Griffin was just a fast runner, not a smart runner. Jackson is over 1000 yds. That’s a lot of yards but also a ton of hits. There are more running qb’s now than we’ve ever had before. The jury is still out on how long they survive. You have to be lucky to avoid injury. Mahommes was out a few games, Cam Newton has taken a beating. Teddy Bridgewater was hurt.
It can happen to anyone, but running
qb’s IMO are going to be more susceptible to injury once the defenses dial up schemes to contain them. Defensive skill players love to lay a big hit on a running qb because they can once they become a runner. Roughing the passer rules no longer apply. At the end of next year, we will see what impact defenses have made and how many qb’s go down with injury. Not wishing this on anyone.

I'm wondering ... does a QB who takes off on a read-option, obviously as a runner, still have the right to slide and not be touched?

unfortunately so. Another benefit to having a running QB. I'm of the position that utilizing the read option should allow defenders to blast the QB even when he has handed the ball off on the mesh. Defenders shouldn't be expected to know with certainty who has the ball in that instance. They should be able to tackle both QB and RB AS THOUGH they have the ball. Try that and you give away 15 yards and a first down.

The NFL today sucks.

I wouldn't call his contract a bargin, but it is par with all of the other overpaid QBs in the league. These guys are getting ridiculous amounts of money. Rodgers, Stafford, Ryan, Cousins- way too much money and not much postseason success as of late (besides Ryan's SB loss). Allocate this money to the defense or offensive line and build a team around that, not a $40 million dollar QB.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:33 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:23 am
I'm wondering ... does a QB who takes off on a read-option, obviously as a runner, still have the right to slide and not be touched?

unfortunately so. Another benefit to having a running QB. I'm of the position that utilizing the read option should allow defenders to blast the QB even when he has handed the ball off on the mesh. Defenders shouldn't be expected to know with certainty who has the ball in that instance. They should be able to tackle both QB and RB AS THOUGH they have the ball. Try that and you give away 15 yards and a first down.

The NFL today sucks.

That rule only protects a QB who slides. Jackson isn't exactly that.

Even if he avoids injury he's not likely to benefit much from the slide rule.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:38 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:33 am
unfortunately so. Another benefit to having a running QB. I'm of the position that utilizing the read option should allow defenders to blast the QB even when he has handed the ball off on the mesh. Defenders shouldn't be expected to know with certainty who has the ball in that instance. They should be able to tackle both QB and RB AS THOUGH they have the ball. Try that and you give away 15 yards and a first down.

The NFL today sucks.

That rule only protects a QB who slides. Jackson isn't exactly that.

Even if he avoids injury he's not likely to benefit much from the slide rule.

I've seen the QB get hit after handing off on the the read option and the result was 15 yards and a first down. Really stupid. Game today sucks.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:44 pm I've seen the QB get hit after handing off on the the read option and the result was 15 yards and a first down. Really stupid. Game today sucks.

Not sure what happened on the play you mentioned. Maybe unnecessary roughness? Did the guy who hit the QB specifically target him after it was clear he didn't have the ball? Maybe throw him down or hit him in a way that would draw a flag? I don't think the rule that protects a QB who gives himself up would apply once he's handed the ball off. Normal rules would apply in that situation, though, and a defender could still draw a flag if the hit were illegal for some other reason.

Just thought I'd leave this here: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ki ... te-season/

fiestavike wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:44 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:38 pm

That rule only protects a QB who slides. Jackson isn't exactly that.

Even if he avoids injury he's not likely to benefit much from the slide rule.

I've seen the QB get hit after handing off on the the read option and the result was 15 yards and a first down. Really stupid. Game today sucks.

This is incorrect, in a read option the QB is treated as a runner and can be hit. The NFL instituted this rule the year after Kaepernick made it to the Super Bowl, hence his decline. Defenses just started hitting him and his one trick was left useless.

I think it's unfair to call Jackson a runner when he leads the NFL in passing TDs. He's pretty much the complete package, hence the MVP talk. His aggressive style may lead to a short career but that assumes he doesn't continue to evolve. Many people thought he couldn't even play QB in the NFL let alone at the level he's playing. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Everyone will be watching for a sophomore slump but it doesn't always happen with mobile QBs. Mahommes and Wilson as an example. He's a good enough passer that he can learn to use his talents to escape but take less hits.

Unless there's a rule change like what happened with Kaepernick, I don't see defenses suddenly shutting him down.

S197 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:55 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:44 pm

I've seen the QB get hit after handing off on the the read option and the result was 15 yards and a first down. Really stupid. Game today sucks.

This is incorrect, in a read option the QB is treated as a runner and can be hit. The NFL instituted this rule the year after Kaepernick made it to the Super Bowl, hence his decline. Defenses just started hitting him and his one trick was left useless.

I hope you are correct, still what you are saying seems to be that if he keeps the ball he is treated as a runner. I'm contending that if he hands it off, he should also be considered a runner. If he pretends to still have the ball, he should be fair game. Try that our on Aaron Rodgers. Hell, try hitting him even if he keeps it.