Vikings Message Board.Com

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:33 am

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:44 pm

For me, part of playing QB at a high level is knowing where to go with the ball. Seeing what is open and what is not, and executing a play where many times a defensive end or LB is barreling right at you, is not as easy as it looks. Cousins is making those throws look routine (in addition to other more difficult throws). I think he deserves some credit for that even if it isn't as impressive on film as what a guy like Lamar Jackson is doing with his legs.

A second point that deserves mentioning is that screens are called plays. By design, they encourage the pass rush to come upfield to vacate the space for the RB, WR, or TE to receive the screen. So it's not like most passing plays where the design is to protect the QB as long as possible so he can drop back, survey the field, and go through a route progression. On a screen, especially when the QB is under center and has to turn his back to the rush, he's not going to have time to make any other play because of the play design. So if Cousins is throwing a lot of screens, it's because Stefanski and Kubiak are calling a lot of screens, and if the coaches are calling a lot of anything, they're doing it because it is working.

I have my theory about why the screens are working, and that has to do with how defenses are playing against Cousins. The rap on Cousins is he doesn't handle pressure well, so I think what Stefanski and Kubiak are doing is allowing defenses to come after him and then counter-punching with screens. It's good coaching IMHO. If a defense wants to try to dictate and pressure the QB frequently, screens are the perfect counter to an aggressive rush.

So you can discount it if you want, but expect to see a healthy dose of screens if Seattle decides to come in with the same defensive strategy the Vikings have seen a lot this year. If the rush is effective the Vikings will counter with screens, rollouts, and misdirection.

No QB handles pressure well. Bring the heat big time and they all will struggle. Watching Rodgers the other night he struggled but the team was getting after him. He looked like a guy that needs to be replaced. I seen Brady struggle the last two weeks because teams were bringing the heat. Next time Brady plays the Jets he will tear them a new one. They can't or won't bring pressure. Screens are part of our game play and they have worked great. Cook is great with the ball in his hands. Plus he can catch well. Not all backs can do that. He looks natural doing it.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:20 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:33 am
No QB handles pressure well. Bring the heat big time and they all will struggle. Watching Rodgers the other night he struggled but the team was getting after him. He looked like a guy that needs to be replaced. I seen Brady struggle the last two weeks because teams were bringing the heat. Next time Brady plays the Jets he will tear them a new one. They can't or won't bring pressure. Screens are part of our game play and they have worked great. Cook is great with the ball in his hands. Plus he can catch well. Not all backs can do that. He looks natural doing it.

Brady is struggling because he is old.

Rodgers is struggling because he only has one WR who is still a little banged up.

His #2 wr wouldn't make most teams.

Fran the Man wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:56 pm This what one of many "Experts" are saying about the Monday night matchup; Seahawks 27, Vikings 24 — Vinnie Iyer, Sporting "News
The Seahawks have their share [of playmakers] around Russell Wilson with Tyler Lockett, D.K. Metcalf and Josh Gordon. Kirk Cousins has come up big in big games, including on the road this season. But that's longer been part of Wilson's DNA. All other signs will point to Seattle losing this game, but his buying time to fire the ball downfield against an overrated secondary will make the difference late."

"Overrated Secondary" Ha! Here's hoping some Vikings D-Backs are perusing this Thread. . .Ought to put a little fire under 'em, I hope! Did you hear that, Harrison? Rhodes? How about you Trae? You guys are OVERATED!! See you Monday. . .

808vikingsfan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:18 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:27 pm
Yeah, that 23-of-26 for 285 against Washington was pretty awful. Just meaningless stats, right? So is the no interceptions in 177 throws, with the last interception being a perfect pass that Stefon Diggs head-butted to the other team. Just more meaningless stats? That 6-1 record ... those wins come with an asterisk. I mean, they don't really count. And let's just ignore the SECOND half of the Denver game ... the one where he put the team on his back and blew up at 20-0 deficit. Obviously a real QB (not stats wise but performs when it counts) would have blown them up the entire game, not just in the clutch moments of the second half. A real quarterback wouldn't have NEEDED such a second-half performance.

Here's what I think. The Vikings will sign Cousins to a big, fat extension this offseason ... and the gnashing of teeth will begin in earnest. They'll have to take a fire extinguisher to this message board.

To me, stats can mean whatever you want it to mean. 18 of his 23 completions were for 5 yds or less. Rewatched the first drive and already spotted a missed opportunity. 2 receivers wide open, clean pocket, dumps for a 2 yd gain. That game had no business being that close. I'm not ignoring the 2nd half of the DEN game, I'm concerned about the 1st half. I don't think he's playing terrible as he's been a big part of the Vikings being 8 -3 (losses included) . At this point, I'm saying I've seen enough in the past few weeks to make me think his limitations will come back to haunt this team. But I can see why most think he's a different QB right now. Good for you if you can take that leap now. Whatever the case, I think this team has enough weapons on both sides of the ball to make some noise this year. IMO, for a legitimate shot at the SB, playoffs start Monday. If there's ever a time the Vikings need a complete game from Cousins, now is the time.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:20 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:33 am
No QB handles pressure well. Bring the heat big time and they all will struggle. Watching Rodgers the other night he struggled but the team was getting after him. He looked like a guy that needs to be replaced. I seen Brady struggle the last two weeks because teams were bringing the heat. Next time Brady plays the Jets he will tear them a new one. They can't or won't bring pressure. Screens are part of our game play and they have worked great. Cook is great with the ball in his hands. Plus he can catch well. Not all backs can do that. He looks natural doing it.

Brady is struggling because he is old.

Rodgers is struggling because he only has one WR who is still a little banged up.

His #2 wr wouldn't make most teams.

Dmizzle0 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:23 am Realy pumped up about this game. I think the Vikings have to start off fast which is something they aren't used to doing. But we're getting AT back so that should be a boost. Running game still will have to be our main focus and Cousins just hast to control the pressure in the pocket and watch-out for Cloney's big #### arms. Our offense HAS to dictate the pace of the game. As for Defense well we all know that Russel has to be contained somehow idk what kind of blitzes is going to be thrown at him but the squad can make any errors because the Seahawks will capitalize. I know alot of people dont have us favored to win but I think there's a fighting chance. SKOL!

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:49 pm This should be an easy time for him against this secondary.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:58 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:49 pm This should be an easy time for him against this secondary.

I don't agree.

Wilson seems to be reaching almost mythological status as of late, and his highlight-reel escapes from pressure followed by big downfield completions reinforces that. By all accounts, he's playing really well and at a high level.

But here's the thing about Wilson specifically and Seattle more generally - they rely on him to make those plays. And even with him making those types of plays, nearly every win they've had (including 2 OT games so far in 2019) have been very close.

So what if the hero player has an off game? What if a defense finds a way to limit him? What if he's not able to escape or make the big splash plays?

In my view, the Seahawks are very vulnerable. Moreso than the Vikings. Yeah, the Vikings have their warts and flaws, the most high profile of which is a QB who has a reputation for being the one who crumbles under pressure and the spotlight. As you point out, a secondary stacked with 1st rounders has struggled against some pretty average QBs, giving up a lot of big plays.

But still, the Vikings aren't so reliant on a single guy like Seattle is.

Maybe I'm overstating how important Wilson is to Seattle. It's possible they'll come out and be able to run the ball consistently, or possible Wilson won't have to escape much pressure and he'll be able to sit back, scan the field, and play QB like a typical NFL QB. Defensively, it's possible Seattle will shut down the Vikings run game while getting pressure on Cousins, and Cousins will comply by making critical mistakes.

That's all certainly possible.

But I don't think that is going to happen. I think the Vikings will come out strong on offense in this game, and I hope that they find ways to neutralize Wilson's strengths, both through the way they create pressure on him but also by making plays in the secondary.

And I think in the end, if Seattle wins, it's going to be because the Vikings made critical mistakes that the Seahawks were able to take advantage of and/or the Vikings were unable to take advantage of mistakes the Seahawks made. I don't think it's going to be because the Seahawks shut down the Vikings offense, or because the Seahawks romped on the Vikings defense.

Without any doubt, keying on Wilson and frustrating him, especially on those broken plays where he has to escape pressure, is going to be the deciding factor in the game. If the Vikings do that well enough, they could even win comfortably.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:58 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:49 pm This should be an easy time for him against this secondary.

I don't agree.

Wilson seems to be reaching almost mythological status as of late, and his highlight-reel escapes from pressure followed by big downfield completions reinforces that. By all accounts, he's playing really well and at a high level.

But here's the thing about Wilson specifically and Seattle more generally - they rely on him to make those plays. And even with him making those types of plays, nearly every win they've had (including 2 OT games so far in 2019) have been very close.

So what if the hero player has an off game? What if a defense finds a way to limit him? What if he's not able to escape or make the big splash plays?

In my view, the Seahawks are very vulnerable. Moreso than the Vikings. Yeah, the Vikings have their warts and flaws, the most high profile of which is a QB who has a reputation for being the one who crumbles under pressure and the spotlight. As you point out, a secondary stacked with 1st rounders has struggled against some pretty average QBs, giving up a lot of big plays.

But still, the Vikings aren't so reliant on a single guy like Seattle is.

Maybe I'm overstating how important Wilson is to Seattle. It's possible they'll come out and be able to run the ball consistently, or possible Wilson won't have to escape much pressure and he'll be able to sit back, scan the field, and play QB like a typical NFL QB. Defensively, it's possible Seattle will shut down the Vikings run game while getting pressure on Cousins, and Cousins will comply by making critical mistakes.

That's all certainly possible.

But I don't think that is going to happen. I think the Vikings will come out strong on offense in this game, and I hope that they find ways to neutralize Wilson's strengths, both through the way they create pressure on him but also by making plays in the secondary.

And I think in the end, if Seattle wins, it's going to be because the Vikings made critical mistakes that the Seahawks were able to take advantage of and/or the Vikings were unable to take advantage of mistakes the Seahawks made. I don't think it's going to be because the Seahawks shut down the Vikings offense, or because the Seahawks romped on the Vikings defense.

Without any doubt, keying on Wilson and frustrating him, especially on those broken plays where he has to escape pressure, is going to be the deciding factor in the game. If the Vikings do that well enough, they could even win comfortably.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:40 pm

808vikingsfan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:18 am
To me, stats can mean whatever you want it to mean. 18 of his 23 completions were for 5 yds or less. Rewatched the first drive and already spotted a missed opportunity. 2 receivers wide open, clean pocket, dumps for a 2 yd gain. That game had no business being that close. I'm not ignoring the 2nd half of the DEN game, I'm concerned about the 1st half. I don't think he's playing terrible as he's been a big part of the Vikings being 8 -3 (losses included) . At this point, I'm saying I've seen enough in the past few weeks to make me think his limitations will come back to haunt this team. But I can see why most think he's a different QB right now. Good for you if you can take that leap now. Whatever the case, I think this team has enough weapons on both sides of the ball to make some noise this year. IMO, for a legitimate shot at the SB, playoffs start Monday. If there's ever a time the Vikings need a complete game from Cousins, now is the time.

Your comment perplexed me. I thought, "How is it possible for a guy to complete 18 of 23 throws for 5 yards or less, yet still average 10.96 yards per completion?" It just didn't pass the smell test. So I looked back into the gamelogs for the Washington game.

Turns out, my olfactory senses were keen. Kirk Cousins completed more than 5 passes for more than 5 yards.

In fact, he equalled this puzzling total within his first 8 throws. Two of those went for more than 30. For the first half, it was 8 of 12 completions of greater than 5 yards, including 6 that went for at least 15 yards. He then opened the third quarter with passes of 39 and 22 yards to Stefon Diggs.

When all was said and done, your number was so far off base that the only conclusion a sane person could make is that ... well, I should probably give you the benefit of the doubt and conclude that you went by how it felt to you. Kirk Cousins completed only 6 passes that gained 5 yards or fewer -- a far cry from the 18 you've claimed. That's 17 of 26 attempts that gained more than 5 yards, including 9 that gained 15 or more, and 4 more that gained at least 11.

As for the Denver game, the only thing you can accuse Kirk Cousins of in the first half is playing conservatively. He still hit 12 of 13 throws, but very few of them were beyond 5 yards. Blame Cousins if you want, but the playcalling was abysmal. Even Kevin Stefanski admitted as much. In the second half, Cousins did EXACTLY what his critics have said he is incapable of doing ... he put the team on his back and won the game. Period. It's inarguable.

Yeah, I'm there. I think he's a different quarterback. And it's not a leap. For once in the career of Kirk Cousins, the stats actually support it.

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:25 pm Thielen is out for the Seattle game.