Vikings @ SEA - Pregame Thread

[808vikingsfan]

I'm still not sold on Cousins yet. I said I'd give this season to convince me and I'm sticking to it.
Yes, he has a pretty stat line right now, but for me, if you look at his last 5 games, half of them give me reason to question if he's turned a corner. The WAS game, the KC game, and the first half of the DEN game. Even the DAL game, half of his yards were from screens to Cook. To think of committing to him for 3 more years, I'd like to be sure he can handle the pressure. Ultimately, winning is what matters. I just can't help but think a better QB (not stat wise but performs when it counts) and the Vikings would be at the very least 9-2 right now.

Of course, a deep playoff run this year would change my mind. It would confirm the team believes in Cousins. Diggs comments lately has me leaning more towards Cousins.

[808vikingsfan]

Offensively, they can move the ball and score, no doubt. However, whoever said Chris Carson is Beast Mode 2.0 is exaggerating in a pretty big way. He's a nice back with 800+ yards, but he's also fumbled 7 times and tends to disappear at times. Last week against Philly, he was basically a no-show.

When I think of beastmode, I think of Marshawn's run where no one could bring him down. I think of a workhorse. Carson is a workhorse that is hard to bring down. Almost 900yds thru 11 games is nothing to sneeze at. At his rate, he'll almost hit the 1300yd mark in a season. Lynch only hit the 1300yd mark twice in his career. I don't see how fumbles factor in the comparison.

[Fran the Man]

This what one of many "Experts" are saying about the Monday night matchup; Seahawks 27, Vikings 24 — Vinnie Iyer, Sporting "News
The Seahawks have their share [of playmakers] around Russell Wilson with Tyler Lockett, D.K. Metcalf and Josh Gordon. Kirk Cousins has come up big in big games, including on the road this season. But that's longer been part of Wilson's DNA. All other signs will point to Seattle losing this game, but his buying time to fire the ball downfield against an overrated secondary will make the difference late."

"Overrated Secondary" Ha! Here's hoping some Vikings D-Backs are perusing this Thread. . .Ought to put a little fire under 'em, I hope! Did you hear that, Harrison? Rhodes? How about you Trae? You guys are OVERATED!! See you Monday. . .

[J. Kapp 11]

This what one of many "Experts" are saying about the Monday night matchup; Seahawks 27, Vikings 24 — Vinnie Iyer, Sporting "News
The Seahawks have their share [of playmakers] around Russell Wilson with Tyler Lockett, D.K. Metcalf and Josh Gordon. Kirk Cousins has come up big in big games, including on the road this season. But that's longer been part of Wilson's DNA. All other signs will point to Seattle losing this game, but his buying time to fire the ball downfield against an overrated secondary will make the difference late."

"Overrated Secondary" Ha! Here's hoping some Vikings D-Backs are perusing this Thread. . .Ought to put a little fire under 'em, I hope! Did you hear that, Harrison? Rhodes? How about you Trae? You guys are OVERATED!! See you Monday. . .

Almost nobody is picking the Vikings.

Sounds like motivation to me.

[J. Kapp 11]

I'm still not sold on Cousins yet. I said I'd give this season to convince me and I'm sticking to it.
Yes, he has a pretty stat line right now, but for me, if you look at his last 5 games, half of them give me reason to question if he's turned a corner. The WAS game, the KC game, and the first half of the DEN game. Even the DAL game, half of his yards were from screens to Cook. To think of committing to him for 3 more years, I'd like to be sure he can handle the pressure. Ultimately, winning is what matters. I just can't help but think a better QB (not stat wise but performs when it counts) and the Vikings would be at the very least 9-2 right now.

Of course, a deep playoff run this year would change my mind. It would confirm the team believes in Cousins. Diggs comments lately has me leaning more towards Cousins.

Yeah, that 23-of-26 for 285 against Washington was pretty awful. Just meaningless stats, right? So is the no interceptions in 177 throws, with the last interception being a perfect pass that Stefon Diggs head-butted to the other team. Just more meaningless stats? That 6-1 record ... those wins come with an asterisk. I mean, they don't really count. And let's just ignore the SECOND half of the Denver game ... the one where he put the team on his back and blew up at 20-0 deficit. Obviously a real QB (not stats wise but performs when it counts) would have blown them up the entire game, not just in the clutch moments of the second half. A real quarterback wouldn't have NEEDED such a second-half performance.

Here's what I think. The Vikings will sign Cousins to a big, fat extension this offseason ... and the gnashing of teeth will begin in earnest. They'll have to take a fire extinguisher to this message board.

[VikingLord]

This what one of many "Experts" are saying about the Monday night matchup; Seahawks 27, Vikings 24 — Vinnie Iyer, Sporting "News
The Seahawks have their share [of playmakers] around Russell Wilson with Tyler Lockett, D.K. Metcalf and Josh Gordon. Kirk Cousins has come up big in big games, including on the road this season. But that's longer been part of Wilson's DNA. All other signs will point to Seattle losing this game, but his buying time to fire the ball downfield against an overrated secondary will make the difference late."

"Overrated Secondary" Ha! Here's hoping some Vikings D-Backs are perusing this Thread. . .Ought to put a little fire under 'em, I hope! Did you hear that, Harrison? Rhodes? How about you Trae? You guys are OVERATED!! See you Monday. . .

The upcoming game "feels" like it should be a repeat of last year's game, which was also a late season Monday nighter in Seattle IIRC.

If you just look at the final score from that game, it sure looks like the Seahawks dominated it, but it was a close game until the end. Further, last year the Vikings couldn't protect Cousins all season. The Vikings struggled to throw and the game against the Seahawks was no exception.

Who thinks that should be the case this year?

Sure, the Seahawks will come after Cousins. I fully expect that. But I also fully expect the Vikings will do a much better job of pass protection overall, and unless Cousins plays poorly, if the Vikings have Thielen back healthy, with the additions of Bisi Johnson and Irv Smith, plus Mattison to spell Cook out of the backfield, I don't see the Seahawks being able to shut down either the run or the pass. They'll have to take some chances, and the Vikings will make them pay this time around

As for the Vikings defense, the key is the same as it was last year IMHO. Play disciplined up front. The front 7 have to maintain their rush lanes and collapse the pocket. The linebackers have to stay home and contain. If the front 7 does their job, then the Vikings defense will force Wilson to play hero. That's a role that Wilson has been up to so far this year in a lot of games, but this is where the secondary has to step up. They have to keep coverage on those plays where Wilson is flushed and likes to go deep. If the secondary can make those plays by either breaking up the throw or better, forcing turnovers, then the Seahawks goose is cooked.

I see plenty of people giving the Seahawks and Wilson the benefit of the doubt, while at the same time not giving it to the Vikings and Cousins. I get that. The Seahawks have come out on top in a LOT of close games this year (2 OT wins in a single season!?!? I can't remember the last time a single team went to multiple OTs in a single season, much less won both) So they seem to have the magic beans. But the Vikings are the better overall team, and if they come out with purpose and execute, they'll win.

The recent string of close losses to Seattle comes to an end this Monday. This is another chance to reset the narrative, both about the team overall, and for Cousins to show he belongs in the MVP discussion.

[PacificNorseWest]

Was Thielen's DNP today precautionary or a setback?

[VikingLord]

I'm still not sold on Cousins yet. I said I'd give this season to convince me and I'm sticking to it.
Yes, he has a pretty stat line right now, but for me, if you look at his last 5 games, half of them give me reason to question if he's turned a corner. The WAS game, the KC game, and the first half of the DEN game. Even the DAL game, half of his yards were from screens to Cook.

For me, part of playing QB at a high level is knowing where to go with the ball. Seeing what is open and what is not, and executing a play where many times a defensive end or LB is barreling right at you, is not as easy as it looks. Cousins is making those throws look routine (in addition to other more difficult throws). I think he deserves some credit for that even if it isn't as impressive on film as what a guy like Lamar Jackson is doing with his legs.

A second point that deserves mentioning is that screens are called plays. By design, they encourage the pass rush to come upfield to vacate the space for the RB, WR, or TE to receive the screen. So it's not like most passing plays where the design is to protect the QB as long as possible so he can drop back, survey the field, and go through a route progression. On a screen, especially when the QB is under center and has to turn his back to the rush, he's not going to have time to make any other play because of the play design. So if Cousins is throwing a lot of screens, it's because Stefanski and Kubiak are calling a lot of screens, and if the coaches are calling a lot of anything, they're doing it because it is working.

I have my theory about why the screens are working, and that has to do with how defenses are playing against Cousins. The rap on Cousins is he doesn't handle pressure well, so I think what Stefanski and Kubiak are doing is allowing defenses to come after him and then counter-punching with screens. It's good coaching IMHO. If a defense wants to try to dictate and pressure the QB frequently, screens are the perfect counter to an aggressive rush.

So you can discount it if you want, but expect to see a healthy dose of screens if Seattle decides to come in with the same defensive strategy the Vikings have seen a lot this year. If the rush is effective the Vikings will counter with screens, rollouts, and misdirection.

[VikingLord]

Was Thielen's DNP today precautionary or a setback?

I read that it was just precautionary, but that Thielen is ready to go and won't be listed on the injury report.

[Fran the Man]

This what one of many "Experts" are saying about the Monday night matchup; Seahawks 27, Vikings 24 — Vinnie Iyer, Sporting "News
The Seahawks have their share [of playmakers] around Russell Wilson with Tyler Lockett, D.K. Metcalf and Josh Gordon. Kirk Cousins has come up big in big games, including on the road this season. But that's longer been part of Wilson's DNA. All other signs will point to Seattle losing this game, but his buying time to fire the ball downfield against an overrated secondary will make the difference late."

"Overrated Secondary" Ha! Here's hoping some Vikings D-Backs are perusing this Thread. . .Ought to put a little fire under 'em, I hope! Did you hear that, Harrison? Rhodes? How about you Trae? You guys are OVERATED!! See you Monday. . .

Almost nobody is picking the Vikings.

Sounds like motivation to me.

Absolutely, it should be prime Motivation for our Secondary. Will they be extra motivated?? I think they'll take the field with their hair on fire. Beat down time; Vikings 35 Seattle 13.

[Fran the Man]

This what one of many "Experts" are saying about the Monday night matchup; Seahawks 27, Vikings 24 — Vinnie Iyer, Sporting "News
The Seahawks have their share [of playmakers] around Russell Wilson with Tyler Lockett, D.K. Metcalf and Josh Gordon. Kirk Cousins has come up big in big games, including on the road this season. But that's longer been part of Wilson's DNA. All other signs will point to Seattle losing this game, but his buying time to fire the ball downfield against an overrated secondary will make the difference late."

"Overrated Secondary" Ha! Here's hoping some Vikings D-Backs are perusing this Thread. . .Ought to put a little fire under 'em, I hope! Did you hear that, Harrison? Rhodes? How about you Trae? You guys are OVERATED!! See you Monday. . .

The upcoming game "feels" like it should be a repeat of last year's game, which was also a late season Monday nighter in Seattle IIRC.

If you just look at the final score from that game, it sure looks like the Seahawks dominated it, but it was a close game until the end. Further, last year the Vikings couldn't protect Cousins all season. The Vikings struggled to throw and the game against the Seahawks was no exception.

Who thinks that should be the case this year?

Sure, the Seahawks will come after Cousins. I fully expect that. But I also fully expect the Vikings will do a much better job of pass protection overall, and unless Cousins plays poorly, if the Vikings have Thielen back healthy, with the additions of Bisi Johnson and Irv Smith, plus Mattison to spell Cook out of the backfield, I don't see the Seahawks being able to shut down either the run or the pass. They'll have to take some chances, and the Vikings will make them pay this time around

As for the Vikings defense, the key is the same as it was last year IMHO. Play disciplined up front. The front 7 have to maintain their rush lanes and collapse the pocket. The linebackers have to stay home and contain. If the front 7 does their job, then the Vikings defense will force Wilson to play hero. That's a role that Wilson has been up to so far this year in a lot of games, but this is where the secondary has to step up. They have to keep coverage on those plays where Wilson is flushed and likes to go deep. If the secondary can make those plays by either breaking up the throw or better, forcing turnovers, then the Seahawks goose is cooked.

I see plenty of people giving the Seahawks and Wilson the benefit of the doubt, while at the same time not giving it to the Vikings and Cousins. I get that. The Seahawks have come out on top in a LOT of close games this year (2 OT wins in a single season!?!? I can't remember the last time a single team went to multiple OTs in a single season, much less won both) So they seem to have the magic beans. But the Vikings are the better overall team, and if they come out with purpose and execute, they'll win.

The recent string of close losses to Seattle comes to an end this Monday. This is another chance to reset the narrative, both about the team overall, and for Cousins to show he belongs in the MVP discussion.

Such a hugely important game. Historically, the type of game our beloved Vikes are not known for winning in recent history. But, I agree with you, it all comes to an end Monday night. SKOL.

[PacificNorseWest]

I really believe the Vikings win in a thriller. GOY type. Vikings will come out serious (recognized by sports media) contenders and later we'll hear clamoring of a possible and desired NFCCG rematch.

Quote me later.

[Fran the Man]

I really believe the Vikings win in a thriller. GOY type. Vikings will come out serious (recognized by sports media) contenders and later we'll hear clamoring of a possible and desired NFCCG rematch.

Quote me later.

Looking SO forward to quoting you later.

[808vikingsfan]

I'm still not sold on Cousins yet. I said I'd give this season to convince me and I'm sticking to it.
Yes, he has a pretty stat line right now, but for me, if you look at his last 5 games, half of them give me reason to question if he's turned a corner. The WAS game, the KC game, and the first half of the DEN game. Even the DAL game, half of his yards were from screens to Cook. To think of committing to him for 3 more years, I'd like to be sure he can handle the pressure. Ultimately, winning is what matters. I just can't help but think a better QB (not stat wise but performs when it counts) and the Vikings would be at the very least 9-2 right now.

Of course, a deep playoff run this year would change my mind. It would confirm the team believes in Cousins. Diggs comments lately has me leaning more towards Cousins.

Yeah, that 23-of-26 for 285 against Washington was pretty awful. Just meaningless stats, right? So is the no interceptions in 177 throws, with the last interception being a perfect pass that Stefon Diggs head-butted to the other team. Just more meaningless stats? That 6-1 record ... those wins come with an asterisk. I mean, they don't really count. And let's just ignore the SECOND half of the Denver game ... the one where he put the team on his back and blew up at 20-0 deficit. Obviously a real QB (not stats wise but performs when it counts) would have blown them up the entire game, not just in the clutch moments of the second half. A real quarterback wouldn't have NEEDED such a second-half performance.

Here's what I think. The Vikings will sign Cousins to a big, fat extension this offseason ... and the gnashing of teeth will begin in earnest. They'll have to take a fire extinguisher to this message board.

To me, stats can mean whatever you want it to mean. 18 of his 23 completions were for 5 yds or less. Rewatched the first drive and already spotted a missed opportunity. 2 receivers wide open, clean pocket, dumps for a 2 yd gain. That game had no business being that close. I'm not ignoring the 2nd half of the DEN game, I'm concerned about the 1st half. I don't think he's playing terrible as he's been a big part of the Vikings being 8 -3 (losses included) . At this point, I'm saying I've seen enough in the past few weeks to make me think his limitations will come back to haunt this team. But I can see why most think he's a different QB right now. Good for you if you can take that leap now. Whatever the case, I think this team has enough weapons on both sides of the ball to make some noise this year. IMO, for a legitimate shot at the SB, playoffs start Monday. If there's ever a time the Vikings need a complete game from Cousins, now is the time.

[CharVike]

I'm still not sold on Cousins yet. I said I'd give this season to convince me and I'm sticking to it.
Yes, he has a pretty stat line right now, but for me, if you look at his last 5 games, half of them give me reason to question if he's turned a corner. The WAS game, the KC game, and the first half of the DEN game. Even the DAL game, half of his yards were from screens to Cook.

For me, part of playing QB at a high level is knowing where to go with the ball. Seeing what is open and what is not, and executing a play where many times a defensive end or LB is barreling right at you, is not as easy as it looks. Cousins is making those throws look routine (in addition to other more difficult throws). I think he deserves some credit for that even if it isn't as impressive on film as what a guy like Lamar Jackson is doing with his legs.

A second point that deserves mentioning is that screens are called plays. By design, they encourage the pass rush to come upfield to vacate the space for the RB, WR, or TE to receive the screen. So it's not like most passing plays where the design is to protect the QB as long as possible so he can drop back, survey the field, and go through a route progression. On a screen, especially when the QB is under center and has to turn his back to the rush, he's not going to have time to make any other play because of the play design. So if Cousins is throwing a lot of screens, it's because Stefanski and Kubiak are calling a lot of screens, and if the coaches are calling a lot of anything, they're doing it because it is working.

I have my theory about why the screens are working, and that has to do with how defenses are playing against Cousins. The rap on Cousins is he doesn't handle pressure well, so I think what Stefanski and Kubiak are doing is allowing defenses to come after him and then counter-punching with screens. It's good coaching IMHO. If a defense wants to try to dictate and pressure the QB frequently, screens are the perfect counter to an aggressive rush.

So you can discount it if you want, but expect to see a healthy dose of screens if Seattle decides to come in with the same defensive strategy the Vikings have seen a lot this year. If the rush is effective the Vikings will counter with screens, rollouts, and misdirection.

No QB handles pressure well. Bring the heat big time and they all will struggle. Watching Rodgers the other night he struggled but the team was getting after him. He looked like a guy that needs to be replaced. I seen Brady struggle the last two weeks because teams were bringing the heat. Next time Brady plays the Jets he will tear them a new one. They can't or won't bring pressure. Screens are part of our game play and they have worked great. Cook is great with the ball in his hands. Plus he can catch well. Not all backs can do that. He looks natural doing it.