Vikings Message Board.Com

me4get wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:35 pm 1st place is margin of loss. Vikings are -3.

Thank you, it is nice to be in first place for a week even though Vikings lost

S197 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:31 pm According to Zimmer, the play that Burrow checked into on 4th and inches in OT was one they practiced defending all week. Looking back at the play, it does seem like they diagnosed it pretty well but Woods overplayed it. He struggled a lot today as did Breeland. A lot of these 1-year vet signings aren’t looking so positive right now. This year and last have shown that the cap does matter and hard choices need to be made when you’re cap constrained.

I don't think Woods overplayed it. His man came from a Ross the formation and was passed on by several people. Very difficult to defend, I believe he was making up for someone's mistake as he recognized the TE flying behind him. I was supposed I didn't here much communication on that play

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:31 pm

halfgiz wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:15 pm Zimmer team with way to many penalties. Some things never change. " Every season under Zimmer"
Cook 67 yards rushing and a fumble pretty much guarantees a loss.
Say what you want but I miss Rieff.

Special teams did look good today at least.

Well of course we miss Reiff over hill. However hill wasn’t the starter of the future. That’s darrisaw

They got rid of Reiff to free up money for Zimmer's defensive rebuilt.
Until they put together a decent offensive line were not going to win. And it obvious that Rick & Zimmer are not capable doing that.

halfgiz wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:33 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:31 pm

Well of course we miss Reiff over hill. However hill wasn’t the starter of the future. That’s darrisaw

They got rid of Reiff to free up money for Zimmer's defensive rebuilt.
Until they put together a decent offensive line were not going to win. And it obvious that Rick & Zimmer are not capable doing that.

What? They got rid of Reiff and drafted a first round left tackle. Darrisaw is the future plan there but clearly suffered a setback with the core muscle surgery. It's not like they got rid of Reiff and didnt address left tackle.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:49 pm Speaking of next week’s opponent … Chandler Jones had FIVE sacks for the Cardinals today. Five.

Heaven help our O-line.

Yeah heaven help Rashod Hill. I think O'Neill can keep him in check if he lines up on that side. Hill on the other hand, has no chance. They are going to have to go with the Kalil Mack approach and send doubles and chips his way non-stop because if Hill is left alone on an island with him, he's toast. I really hope Darrisaw gets back soon.

My take and complaint is with the OL and why are we thinking that we can transition OT to the OG position?
So my complaint is with Coaching. I have been off the Zimmer train now for years! Very frustrating.
Cleveland is a OT that is trying to bulk to play the interior position. He is getting better, but was an outside guy that plays with finesse and skill, not strength and mauling tendencies! Udoh is a OT that is inside now also. Again the OT is a more athletic lineman as they have to be able to control speed rushers.
Why do we not put OG in the OG position? Is Wyatt Davis going to have to wait a season to get into the OL like Zimmer always does with rookies? We drafted Davis and I was absolutely thrilled thinking we finally took an elite OG that will play the OG position. Those guys play with leverage and power, not finesse like the OT's. They spend their college years learning how to move big fatties !!!
But..... The Vikings coaches don't see it that way. I don't understand why?
Now I see us in a pickle. Gave O'Neill a great new contract, good for him. Drafted Darrisaw to be future LT. Drafted Davis to be a OG. Ezra is going to have to stay at OG, or will he leave as a FA because he wants to go back to OT ? I just don't get it. I would have added another OG with Davis in the draft. I really liked Ben Cleveland, Trey Smith, and Aaron Banks.

Just my rant.

Offensive line play was bad again. Not a one off. It's the norm. Spare me investment in rookies, that's good for down the road. We can't develop oline. Vets die here. Prospects don't develop. We are relying on TWO of five on the line to be rookies this year. Why? Because we have NOTHING there for years. No depth. No potential. Zimmer, the staff, and front office continue to fail at developing a good line.

Zimmer isn't a DC here. He is the HC. It all starts and stops with him.
-----

Mike Sando in The Athletic this morning:

I’ll be watching for two things from Minnesota: how coach Mike Zimmer balances his tendency to blame others with a coach’s duty to take responsibility, and how the offense performs with a shockingly inexperienced staff.

On the first point, Zimmer almost never seems to take the blame for team performance shortcomings.

Before the Vikings 27-24 overtime defeat in Cincinnati on Sunday, Zimmer dismissed fans’ concerns about his team’s defense, suggesting in remarks to the Minneapolis Star Tribune that “if you polled all the offensive coaches in the league, they would say that I’m still ahead of the curve.” Zimmer also suggested the Vikings nearly pulled off one of the “best coaching jobs there was” by winning seven games last season “with the group that we got” on the roster.

Notice the framing? Good coaching, not-as-good playing.

At halftime of the loss in Cincy, Fox reported that Zimmer thought quarterback Kirk Cousins held the ball too long in the first half. After the game, Zimmer noted that the Bengals succeeded in a key fourth-down situation even though the Vikings had practiced against that specific play.

This wasn’t a direct shot at the players, but the framing was familiar.

On the second point, Minnesota is a team with an outspoken and sometimes combative defensive-minded head coach, matched with a first-time offensive coordinator, first-time offensive line coach, first-time quarterbacks coach, no veteran backup quarterbacks and a rookie first-round left tackle who will miss at least the first three games of the season following surgery.

That combination, coupled with Zimmer’s tendency to speak his mind in ways that reflect poorly on others, could enable Zimmer’s most combustible instincts when the results are poor. And the results are going to be poor, in my view. Arizona, Seattle and Cleveland are next on the Vikings’ schedule. What could go wrong? Not the coaching, most likely.

Lot's of negatives, but at the end of the day, the Vikings still win this game if Kirk Cousins just doesn't suck so bad.

A QB might be able to wait to throw until he sees the guy open if he can move in the pocket or scramble to buy time.
A QB might be get away with being unable to buy time if he can get the ball out quick and throw with anticipation.

If a QB doesn't get the ball out quick, or throw with anticipation, or have the ability to buy time with movement, he just flat out sucks in today's game, It doesn't matter how good he is when everything goes according to plan.

Throw in being a panicky wreck when under pressure or forced off schedule, and you have Kirk Cousins.

Some interesting league-wide rankings/statistics for the Vikings after the first game:

Congrats to Joe Mixon - after playing the Vikings in Week One he is the #1 ranked running back in the NFL with 127 yards...

The Vikings currently rank 26th against the run pending, of course, the outcome of tonight's game. But still, for all the money they spent to "upgrade" the defense, for all the hullabaloo surrounding the return of Danielle Hunter, just, "wow" bad...

Offensively, the Vikings running game also ranks 26th overall pending the outcome of tonight's game... So much for an offense that wants to establish the run. Not only couldn't they do that against what was an historically poor Cincy run defense last year that mostly fielded the same players this year, when it mattered late the run game ended up turning the ball over and effectively ended any chance of the team winning in OT.

On the bright side, Cousins is currently the #3 ranked QB in the league based on yards. Even that comes with a huge asterisk because a) he threw it a ton and b) a lot of those yards came because of his receivers after the catch and not because he was chucking it all over the field.

Watching the game yesterday, I give a lot of credit to the Bengals. I felt they really wanted it bad and just outworked the Vikings for the most part. But I also felt like the entire Vikings team was like the kid who shows up to the test simply unprepared. Had he prepared and been ready he passes the test no problem, but because he wasn't ready he fails it.

Several of the Vikings players talked about how the team "didn't give up" after being down at the half and kept fighting. While that is true and valiant, I don't think the team was ready to play yesterday in any facet other than the kickers. Danielle Hunter is too experienced and too good to be getting suckered inside and leave wide open cutbacks all game like he did yesterday, but he did it all game and Mixon sits atop the league stats partly as a result of that. Breeland didn't look ready to face Young and I felt the Bengals picked on him as a result. He directly gave up one score and indirectly another off his PI call. Huge liability yesterday. Vikings LBs were getting consistently washed out by the Bengals blockers on early down runs. Cook should have had the holes Mixon had to run through, but instead it was flipped, and as a result, so are the stats.

I could go on, but the Vikings were not prepared yesterday. Be interesting to see how they respond because I am sure they will see the same thing when they watch the film. They show up with the same lack of preparation against the Cardinals and they will get wiped all over the desert next Sunday.

We've got an awesome roster this season so I expected to lose a bunch of games to COVID with half of our captains unvaccinated - I did not expect to be outplayed by the Cincinnati Bengals. But maybe that was the obvious outcome with our head coach who loves to lay duds out there week 1, the week after the bye, and against bottom-dwellers a few times a season.

makila wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:17 am Offensive line play was bad again. Not a one off. It's the norm. Spare me investment in rookies, that's good for down the road. We can't develop oline. Vets die here. Prospects don't develop. We are relying on TWO of five on the line to be rookies this year. Why? Because we have NOTHING there for years. No depth. No potential. Zimmer, the staff, and front office continue to fail at developing a good line.

Zimmer isn't a DC here. He is the HC. It all starts and stops with him.
-----

Make Sando in The Athletic this morning:

I’ll be watching for two things from Minnesota: how coach Mike Zimmer balances his tendency to blame others with a coach’s duty to take responsibility, and how the offense performs with a shockingly inexperienced staff.

On the first point, Zimmer almost never seems to take the blame for team performance shortcomings.

Before the Vikings 27-24 overtime defeat in Cincinnati on Sunday, Zimmer dismissed fans’ concerns about his team’s defense, suggesting in remarks to the Minneapolis Star Tribune that “if you polled all the offensive coaches in the league, they would say that I’m still ahead of the curve.” Zimmer also suggested the Vikings nearly pulled off one of the “best coaching jobs there was” by winning seven games last season “with the group that we got” on the roster.

Notice the framing? Good coaching, not-as-good playing.

At halftime of the loss in Cincy, Fox reported that Zimmer thought quarterback Kirk Cousins held the ball too long in the first half. After the game, Zimmer noted that the Bengals succeeded in a key fourth-down situation even though the Vikings had practiced against that specific play.

This wasn’t a direct shot at the players, but the framing was familiar.

On the second point, Minnesota is a team with an outspoken and sometimes combative defensive-minded head coach, matched with a first-time offensive coordinator, first-time offensive line coach, first-time quarterbacks coach, no veteran backup quarterbacks and a rookie first-round left tackle who will miss at least the first three games of the season following surgery.

That combination, coupled with Zimmer’s tendency to speak his mind in ways that reflect poorly on others, could enable Zimmer’s most combustible instincts when the results are poor. And the results are going to be poor, in my view. Arizona, Seattle and Cleveland are next on the Vikings’ schedule. What could go wrong? Not the coaching, most likely.

Fascinating. It's almost if Zim sets the team up so if everything goes right (2017) he can take the glory but if everything goes wrong (every other season basically) he can blame something else. Gotta think the 20 year olds on the roster are pretty sick of his style - even if he had the best schemes (he doesn't), his coaching style is going to resonate less and less with each new draft class. Any other long-term coaches in the league have their team look this trash coming into week 1? No, it's a Zimmer specialty.

I said it in the chat but I'll say it again: we are the first team ever to have a 4,000 yard QB, a 1,500 yard RB, and a 1,400 yard WR. It's unacceptable for the offense to look like it does. And I'm not talking about execution - the entire game plan for the offense doesn't take advantage of these 3 dudes. We've got a Porsche on the autobahn but Mike Zimmer is driving it so he thinks the speed limit is still 65 mph like it was in 1995.

TSonn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:21 am

makila wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:17 am Offensive line play was bad again. Not a one off. It's the norm. Spare me investment in rookies, that's good for down the road. We can't develop oline. Vets die here. Prospects don't develop. We are relying on TWO of five on the line to be rookies this year. Why? Because we have NOTHING there for years. No depth. No potential. Zimmer, the staff, and front office continue to fail at developing a good line.

Zimmer isn't a DC here. He is the HC. It all starts and stops with him.
-----

Make Sando in The Athletic this morning:

I’ll be watching for two things from Minnesota: how coach Mike Zimmer balances his tendency to blame others with a coach’s duty to take responsibility, and how the offense performs with a shockingly inexperienced staff.

On the first point, Zimmer almost never seems to take the blame for team performance shortcomings.

Before the Vikings 27-24 overtime defeat in Cincinnati on Sunday, Zimmer dismissed fans’ concerns about his team’s defense, suggesting in remarks to the Minneapolis Star Tribune that “if you polled all the offensive coaches in the league, they would say that I’m still ahead of the curve.” Zimmer also suggested the Vikings nearly pulled off one of the “best coaching jobs there was” by winning seven games last season “with the group that we got” on the roster.

Notice the framing? Good coaching, not-as-good playing.

At halftime of the loss in Cincy, Fox reported that Zimmer thought quarterback Kirk Cousins held the ball too long in the first half. After the game, Zimmer noted that the Bengals succeeded in a key fourth-down situation even though the Vikings had practiced against that specific play.

This wasn’t a direct shot at the players, but the framing was familiar.

On the second point, Minnesota is a team with an outspoken and sometimes combative defensive-minded head coach, matched with a first-time offensive coordinator, first-time offensive line coach, first-time quarterbacks coach, no veteran backup quarterbacks and a rookie first-round left tackle who will miss at least the first three games of the season following surgery.

That combination, coupled with Zimmer’s tendency to speak his mind in ways that reflect poorly on others, could enable Zimmer’s most combustible instincts when the results are poor. And the results are going to be poor, in my view. Arizona, Seattle and Cleveland are next on the Vikings’ schedule. What could go wrong? Not the coaching, most likely.

Fascinating. It's almost if Zim sets the team up so if everything goes right (2017) he can take the glory but if everything goes wrong (every other season basically) he can blame something else. Gotta think the 20 year olds on the roster are pretty sick of his style - even if he had the best schemes (he doesn't), his coaching style is going to resonate less and less with each new draft class. Any other long-term coaches in the league have their team look this trash coming into week 1? No, it's a Zimmer specialty.

I said it in the chat but I'll say it again: we are the first team ever to have a 4,000 yard QB, a 1,500 yard RB, and a 1,400 yard WR. It's unacceptable for the offense to look like it does. And I'm not talking about execution - the entire game plan for the offense doesn't take advantage of these 3 dudes. We've got a Porsche on the autobahn but Mike Zimmer is driving it so he thinks the speed limit is still 65 mph like it was in 1995.

Unless the GM/HC relationship is very different than I believe it is, Zimmer holds a lot of responsibility for who is playing and him ripping the players for not being good enough is still on him.

This team does not have close to enough talent to win it all. That is more on the GM for building the team, but it is also on the HC for not helping his GM build a better team. Even more damning for Zimmer, he is the primary decision maker on who is OC is, and his OC looks like he was hired purely on who his Dad was. If you are a defensive minded coach, you need a great OC, and it feels like instead Zimmer settled for a guy who just happened to be already on the staff. Early in the season that looks like the worst decision made this offseason and if it continues that hiring was a fire-able offense.

Zimmer is a good HC. He isn't good enough.

The GM isn't good enough.

The QB isn't good enough.


They all have their moments, they all bring things to the table that are good, but in the end they are not good enough to win us a championship.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:20 am Lot's of negatives, but at the end of the day, the Vikings still win this game if Kirk Cousins just doesn't suck so bad.

A QB might be able to wait to throw until he sees the guy open if he can move in the pocket or scramble to buy time.
A QB might be get away with being unable to buy time if he can get the ball out quick and throw with anticipation.

If a QB doesn't get the ball out quick, or throw with anticipation, or have the ability to buy time with movement, he just flat out sucks in today's game, It doesn't matter how good he is when everything goes according to plan.

Throw in being a panicky wreck when under pressure or forced off schedule, and you have Kirk Cousins.

Was waiting for someone to blame the loss directly on the QB

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:05 am

fiestavike wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:20 am Lot's of negatives, but at the end of the day, the Vikings still win this game if Kirk Cousins just doesn't suck so bad.

A QB might be able to wait to throw until he sees the guy open if he can move in the pocket or scramble to buy time.
A QB might be get away with being unable to buy time if he can get the ball out quick and throw with anticipation.

If a QB doesn't get the ball out quick, or throw with anticipation, or have the ability to buy time with movement, he just flat out sucks in today's game, It doesn't matter how good he is when everything goes according to plan.

Throw in being a panicky wreck when under pressure or forced off schedule, and you have Kirk Cousins.

Was waiting for someone to blame the loss directly on the QB

Zimmer did it! Heh : )

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:41 am
Unless the GM/HC relationship is very different than I believe it is, Zimmer holds a lot of responsibility for who is playing and him ripping the players for not being good enough is still on him.

This team does not have close to enough talent to win it all. That is more on the GM for building the team, but it is also on the HC for not helping his GM build a better team. Even more damning for Zimmer, he is the primary decision maker on who is OC is, and his OC looks like he was hired purely on who his Dad was. If you are a defensive minded coach, you need a great OC, and it feels like instead Zimmer settled for a guy who just happened to be already on the staff. Early in the season that looks like the worst decision made this offseason and if it continues that hiring was a fire-able offense.

Zimmer is a good HC. He isn't good enough.

The GM isn't good enough.

The QB isn't good enough.


They all have their moments, they all bring things to the table that are good, but in the end they are not good enough to win us a championship.

This is it in a nutshell for me. He and Rick build this team together. This is their roster and has been for quite a while now. They didn't take this over from another regime. There are no coaches held over. These are their guys. Their players. Their coaches. Their scouts. Their scheme. If we succeed they get the credit. If we fail it ultimately falls on Zimmer and Rick.