Vikings Message Board.Com

I’m not sure I’m on the “fire the OC” band wagon just yet. There is no denying the recent struggles, and some of the non-use of AP is certainly rippable, but I can’t overlook what Harvin has been able to do in this offense this year. Musgrave deserves credit for coming up with ways to use the guy. That is not absolution, just pointing out that there have been some positives.

Frasier’s quoted comments in one of the other posts really hits home to me. They were talking about individual players and creating better situations for Ponder, specifically getting Rudolph more involved. Winning matchups/creating matchups. I love that style of thinking.

IMO, the current issue is whether or not the team/coaches can adapt to how the NFL has adapted to their style of play. An example is the overload blitzes. Obviously this doesn’t work on every team and it ridiculous to think the coaches do not know how to handle that type of defensive play calling. So the question to me is can they get their guys coached up to be able to handle what they are seeing. That is, literally, what they are paid to do. If they fail, then there should be blood in the water. I just haven’t reached a point where I’m going to say I do not see any reason to think they can pull it off. The clock is ticking though.

If they finish out 5-11 I would suspect some heads are going to roll. They put in a system, it worked for a while, but now the gig is up and the league has given them a wrinkle. Change is a violent act, but that is the NFL. Time to show you can run with the big dogs.

mansquatch wrote:I’m not sure I’m on the “fire the OC” band wagon just yet. There is no denying the recent struggles, and some of the non-use of AP is certainly rippable, but I can’t overlook what Harvin has been able to do in this offense this year. Musgrave deserves credit for coming up with ways to use the guy. That is not absolution, just pointing out that there have been some positives.

I think Musgrave, like Ponder, started the season pretty well and where he's been disappointing is in his failure to sufficiently adjust as the season has moved forward. I realize the Vikings personnel places some limits on what he can do but his hands aren't completely tied. As others have said, he could spread the offense out more. They can run quick slants instead of so many bubble screens and conceivably accomplish the same goals. He needs to be more unpredictable with his playcalling.

I agree, I just do not think a 3 game skid makes it suddenly time to toss the guy under the bus. There are real issues for sure, but IMO the Vikings will either solve them with the existing roster or they will fail to solve them with the existing roster and roster includes the coaches. I also wonder if canning Musgrave will be a net positive change? What happens to the roster if a new guy comes in with different ideas? Look what happened when Chilli came in?

I'm hesitant to advocate that path at this point. The clock is definitely ticking, but risk/reward on Coord change is not favorable at this point IMO.

After the bye week my patience will be much more strained if this continues. That to me is when they absolutely must fix it. If they cannot at least show improvement after that, then they deserve to feel the reaper in January.

mansquatch wrote:I agree, I just do not think a 3 game skid makes it suddenly time to toss the guy under the bus. There are real issues for sure, but IMO the Vikings will either solve them with the existing roster or they will fail to solve them with the existing roster and roster includes the coaches. I also wonder if canning Musgrave will be a net positive change? What happens to the roster if a new guy comes in with different ideas? Look what happened when Chilli came in?

I'm hesitant to advocate that path at this point. The clock is definitely ticking, but risk/reward on Coord change is not favorable at this point IMO.

After the bye week my patience will be much more strained if this continues. That to me is when they absolutely must fix it. If they cannot at least show improvement after that, then they deserve to feel the reaper in January.

With me, it always depends on the specific circumstances but I certainly don't advocate firing Musgrave based on his overall performance so far. I don't even think firing him during the season is a particularly sensible option. After the season... it depends on what happens between now and then.

they need to bench him, then let him have one more run to finish out the season. if he can't produce by then, this team needs to go in another direction. even j-joke's passing numbers were never this bad.

mosscarter wrote:they need to bench him, then let him have one more run to finish out the season. if he can't produce by then, this team needs to go in another direction. even j-joke's passing numbers were never this bad.

Oh yes they were... you've probably just blocked some of those painful memories.

How about his 10-20 for 50 yard performance on 12/21/06 at Green Bay (Merry Christmas!) or the 6-19 for 72 yards he provided at Dallas on 10/21/07?

Then there was 6-12 for 73 yards against San Diego on 11/4/07 (of course, AD more than made up for it on that day).

Let's not forget his 15 -35 for 164 playoff performance against the Eagles in 2008!

Of course, all that means is Ponder has the potential to be as bad as Jackson.

The key there is did TJoke positive days ever compare to Ponder's? I do not recall that ever being the case. Whatever though, it doesn't matter. All that matters right now is whether or not Ponder can do it again and start to do it with consistency...

mansquatch wrote:The key there is did TJoke positive days ever compare to Ponder's? I do not recall that ever being the case.

GOD yes. It was just as painful as this.

I watched some games via youtube lately and Ponder was nearly Pick sixed against SF AND DET. Jenkins fell down and Whitner (I believe) just took his eye off of the ball) and Cliff Avril completely read the bubble screen and was nearly intercepted. Offense MUST stay on the field longer because our defense is getting exposed in both phases of the offensive game.

5-5 into the bye is still better than I thought it would be.

mansquatch wrote:The key there is did TJoke positive days ever compare to Ponder's? I do not recall that ever being the case. Whatever though, it doesn't matter. All that matters right now is whether or not Ponder can do it again and start to do it with consistency...

Well, Jackson never had a 250 yard game as a Viking. Ponder so far has 5.

i guess my point was more to the fact that j-jack was never even thought of to be a "franchise qb," and ponder is. and to have back to back showings of 50 and 60 yds passing is unacceptable.

Alot of people like to blame alot of things, but I still believe the main blame for most of whats happened to this team is Ponder. When we cant get some first downs our D gets tired, fast. I still havent figured out why they dont spot JA more in the 2nd half, he needs it.

The D has keyed into PH so Ponder has to make something else work for the passing game. The problem is he cant. The blame isnt on the receivers. Some yes, all no, not even close.. I dont think he can read the safties, he doesnt see single coverage, its all too fast for him. Hes a 1 trick pony, the bubble/screen/slant to PH.

So now Musgraves hands are tied. He has no faith in his QB. He knows all the D has to do is show a blitz and Ponder panics. He also knows if a receiver isnt open in about 2 seconds ponders happy feet move, and well, nothing good happens from that. Musgrave has to get the TEs involved, and little WR hitches. He has to focus almost completely on the middle of the field, and run AD. That will open up Simpson, Devin and PH downfield. They all can fly, they all can catch. Build Ponders confidence and air it out, or bench him. Play Webb for a bit, give the kid a mental break.

But our D really isnt that bad. Its just on the field too much. And it plays better with a lead. Just my 2 cents, but ive grown so tired pf Ponder ( I want to have faith but even thats just about gone. BTW who is our QB coach?

Man, even Yahoo has another story about Ponder wondering if his new girlfriend is a curse for the vikes (

she won't be with him long, at this rate he'll never be a starter again.

Is saying that Ponder is not as bad as T-Jack supposed to make us feel better?