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Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:06 pm
by Mothman
The Breeze wrote:I really think his shiftiness and speed will make him even better on punts vs kickoffs. If he puts in the work learning how to field punts...watch out. I've only seen his highlight reels but he sure displays an uncanny ability to make guys miss, which is critical on punts. Kick returns seem to be about being decisive and a couple changes of direction at most. Harvin has it down. Patterson just needs some solid coaching and reps. Webb would make an excellent kick returner too....he seems to have that kind of running style and vision.
I see him (Webb) as more of a gunner than a return man but maybe he'd be good at either job.
Either way, I'm excited to watch this guy perform
I am too and despite what's being said, I have a feeling the Vikes intend to get him a little more involved as a receiver this year than they're letting on...

I hope Patterson is a quick learner. :)

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:15 pm
by S197
Mothman wrote:I see him (Webb) as more of a gunner than a return man but maybe he'd be good at either job.
Webb was put in as a KR during the Chili era. Clearly a long shot over Patterson however.

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:21 pm
by Mothman
S197 wrote: Webb was put in as a KR during the Chili era. Clearly a long shot over Patterson however.
I'm sure he'd be capable of doing it. It just doesn't strike me as something he'd excel at doing.

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:38 am
by The Breeze
Mothman wrote: I'm sure he'd be capable of doing it. It just doesn't strike me as something he'd excel at doing.
I don't think Webb is a guy who would be outrunning coverages for Tds....more like he could consistently get it out near the 30. I'd prefer to see CP handle both ends of it. Just having a hard time seeing how Webb is going to get any time on the field barring injury...if he even makes the team. 5th wr and some kind of special teams role would mean he has a lot to learn and his work is cut out for him. At least he's getting a fair shot. I guess it's up to him to make the difference.

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:47 am
by Mothman
The Breeze wrote:I don't think Webb is a guy who would be outrunning coverages for Tds....more like he could consistently get it out near the 30.

That makes sense to me.
You want Christian Ponder handling returns?! ;)

They have two CPs now on the team now.
Exactly. He's going to have to use all that athletic ability to carve out a role for himself.

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:14 am
by The Breeze
Mothman wrote:
You want Christian Ponder handling returns?! ;)

They have two CPs now on the team now.
Yeah, someone needs to conjure up a good nickname for Patterson.

According to google there is a thread on it at the VU forum...but I couldn't find it.

Odin had an 8 legged horse named Sleipnir that ran faster than anything. It was the offspring off Loki and a giant stallion named Svaðilfari....(long story). But Sleipnir doesn't really roll off the tongue that well.

What will we do?

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:16 am
by dead_poet
The Breeze wrote:What will we do?
Wait to see him play to see if he's deserving of a cool nickname?

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:21 am
by The Breeze
dead_poet wrote: Wait to see him play to see if he's deserving of a cool nickname?
stop making sense. :wink:

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:33 pm
by VikingLord
The Breeze wrote: I don't think Webb is a guy who would be outrunning coverages for Tds....more like he could consistently get it out near the 30. I'd prefer to see CP handle both ends of it. Just having a hard time seeing how Webb is going to get any time on the field barring injury...if he even makes the team. 5th wr and some kind of special teams role would mean he has a lot to learn and his work is cut out for him. At least he's getting a fair shot. I guess it's up to him to make the difference.
Hard to say at this point in the offseason, but from what I saw Webb looked pretty fluid in OTAs. He was calling out alignment adjustments to the rookies in drills. And compared to your garden-variety NFL WR, Webb is a specimen. He's a really big and solid guy. I could see Webb pushing for playing time at WR this season, perhaps significant time. If nothing else he makes a ton of sense in 3rd down and short-field situations where his size is going to cause matchup problems.

We Vikings fans aren't used to a lot of positive surprises, but based on what I've seen so far I think Webb has the chance to be one this upcoming season, and as much more than a punt returner.

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:47 pm
by The Breeze
VikingLord wrote:
Hard to say at this point in the offseason, but from what I saw Webb looked pretty fluid in OTAs. He was calling out alignment adjustments to the rookies in drills. And compared to your garden-variety NFL WR, Webb is a specimen. He's a really big and solid guy. I could see Webb pushing for playing time at WR this season, perhaps significant time. If nothing else he makes a ton of sense in 3rd down and short-field situations where his size is going to cause matchup problems.

We Vikings fans aren't used to a lot of positive surprises, but based on what I've seen so far I think Webb has the chance to be one this upcoming season, and as much more than a punt returner.
I certainly hope your speculation pans out. He's essentially a rookie as far as mileage goes. It seems like he should have more than this off season to completely change positions like this. Good things happen when he's got the ball in the open field. Just one of several interesting story lines heading into camp.

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:56 pm
by J. Kapp 11
dead_poet wrote:Show me some tape where he's lined up outside. Of COURSE he's most effective in the middle when that's where he's playing 95% of his snaps. He really, rarely got the opportunity.
Rhetorical question, DP ... and you know how much I respect your knowledge and opinion.

Don't you think, with the lack of talent this team has had at WR since 2009, that the coaching staff would have lined Percy up outside if he were an effective outside receiver?

My views on Harvin are well-documented here. I think he's a fabulous, explosive talent. He's tough, he's fast as heck, and he plays hard. But thus far, except for kickoff returns, he's not a game changer. He's simply too short to be really good outside the numbers, and he's never been known for running great routes. Look at his career numbers as a receiver. They're not close to the level of a top receiver in this league. The most receiving TDs he's ever had in a season was 6. Kyle Rudolph had 9 last year. I know that's only one measure, but the numbers simply aren't there overall.

In his defense, I'll say this. Even though I believe he's purely a slot receiver, he certainly has not had the benefit of a really good outside receiver on this team to line up next to him since Sidney Rice in 2009. Nor has he had a top QB throwing to him since a healthy Favre in '09. So it's hard to know what he could have been, numbers-wise, as a Viking.

In the end, we have more questions than answers. None of us really know whether it was a "good move" to trade him. We're not in the locker room. We don't know what's inside Percy's head, nor do we know what's in Frazier's head. What we do know is that if you're going to trade somebody like Harvin, whose value in the eyes of many other teams is very high, you'd better get value in the draft in return. I think the Vikings did.

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:51 pm
by S197
J. Kapp 11 wrote:My views on Harvin are well-documented here. I think he's a fabulous, explosive talent. He's tough, he's fast as heck, and he plays hard. But thus far, except for kickoff returns, he's not a game changer. He's simply too short to be really good outside the numbers, and he's never been known for running great routes. Look at his career numbers as a receiver. They're not close to the level of a top receiver in this league. The most receiving TDs he's ever had in a season was 6. Kyle Rudolph had 9 last year. I know that's only one measure, but the numbers simply aren't there overall.
The thing is, with Harvin you can't really look at traditional stats because he isn't a traditional receiver. Even if you take out his returns, I still think he's a game changer. For example, you're correct that the most receiving TDs he had in a season was 6 (and 967 receiving yards) but he also had 2 rushing TD's and 345 rushing yards (6.6 YPC). Last year before being sidelined he was also #1 in receptions and YAC. When you take into the account that he's a threat from just about anywhere on the field, I think that's what makes him a game changer.

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:31 pm
by dead_poet
J. Kapp 11 wrote:Don't you think, with the lack of talent this team has had at WR since 2009, that the coaching staff would have lined Percy up outside if he were an effective outside receiver?
I would hope, but I'm not so sure. It could honestly be a situation where he's just that much more effective in the slot. And they want to keep him on a snap count given his aggressive playing style (meaning, not playing him on the outside in base and slot in three-wide sets). They could've viewed him, like you, as someone that's "too short" to play outside (even though there are many players his size or shorter than have been effective outside receivers). I rarely saw him line up outside, even in the preseason. They may have liked their outside guys. Rice was a starter and Berrian had the contract of a starter too. Neither Rice nor Berrian are "slot guys" and it wouldn't have made a lot of sense to bench one of them, especially if Harvin wasn't getting reps on the outside to try and "unseat" one of them.

I admit that I might be off base, but I'd love to hear from someone in the organization why he was used primarily out of the slot. In my eyes, he can succeed in that role. Better than his prowess in the slot? That's a good question. Lack of a proficient complete route tree/timing?

And I also greatly disagree that he's not a "game changer" at receiver. I really wish he would've played a full season in 2012. Looking at his averages in 2012, extrapolated to 16 games and his stat line would've read: 120 receptions, 1,344 yards, 6 TDs.

Here's what one AFC personnel man said about Harvin:
"He's got more versatility and big-play ability than Bowe," the personnel director said. "He's younger than Jennings. He can get vertical like Wallace can, but Wallace is a real straightline (player) and Percy's got a whole lot more wiggle to him. He's got (Wes) Welker's quickness, but far better speed. Arguably, you can say he might be the top guy of that group."
And I remember this relevant exchange:
Last year, around this time, Vikings coach Leslie Frazier kept hearing about Percy Harvin.

First, while coaching the Senior Bowl in Mobile, Ala., and later at the 2012 NFL Combine in Indianapolis, Frazier was repeatedly approached by opposing coaches, who in casual conversation just kept mentioning how much of a headache it was to defend Harvin.

The energetic slot receiver was just so slippery, so dynamic, so explosive.

The more Frazier heard from peers and foes about the stress Harvin could cause an opposing defense, the more he realized Harvin had to become an even bigger cog in the Vikings’ attack. And so plans were tweaked, Harvin’s role was enhanced and for eight games in 2012, the explosive playmaker did a little bit of everything.

He took bubble screens and short quick-hit passes and turned them into big gains. He lined up in the backfield and displayed his demolition derby style as a running back. He lobbied for more action on special teams and continued to be one of the league’s most electrifying return men, evidenced best by his 105-yard score in Week 4 in Detroit.

At the season’s midpoint, Harvin was the Vikings star being propped up as a league MVP candidate, not Adrian Peterson. Harvin was the one who seemed more responsible for the team’s 5-3 start, amassing a league-best 60 catches and totaling 739 yards from scrimmage with five total touchdowns mixed in. (Peterson, for the record, had 914 yards from scrimmage and four TDs after eight games.)
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... 14531.html

I consider a guy that's a threat to take the ball to the house every time he touches it, a guy that defensive coordinators fear and specifically game plan for, who can burn you in a multitude of ways, I say that is the epitome of a "game changer." Of course YMMV.

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:44 pm
by Demi
I admit that I might be off base, but I'd love to hear from someone in the organization why he was used primarily out of the slot. In my eyes, he can succeed in that role. Better than his prowess in the slot? That's a good question. Lack of a proficient complete route tree/timing?
I remember that being reported in the media when they were trying to get him more work out wide.

I think Patterson will be able to do everything Percy did, not quite as well, but in three years will be a more complete all-around receiver and make up for it.

Re: WR Cordarrelle Patterson

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:36 pm
by hibbingviking
Demi wrote: I remember that being reported in the media when they were trying to get him more work out wide.

I think Patterson will be able to do everything Percy did, not quite as well, but in three years will be a more complete all-around receiver and make up for it.
I agree. percy harvin will never be a larry fitzgerald cordarrelle Patterson could be.