Vikings Message Board.Com

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:19 pm

Dames wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:05 pm
He really did put together 3 nice drives to take the lead back each time. But, there are always the glaring 2 drives at the end that overshadow it. Yep, the D is at fault for giving up the leads... but sometimes we just want our QB to win it. Fair or not.

If he played competently (hit open receivers, deliver the ball on time, not slide before the sticks, etc) there are probably two to three fewer possessions for the opposition offense and likely more points scored by our offense.

And,

-IF the OL wasnt getting pushed back into Cook every time, we could have killed more clock and controlled the game more.
-IF the defense stepped up and stopped Matt Moore when we needed them to, we would have won.
-IF Stefanski didnt call a screen to Irv Smith that lost 7 yards we would have still had a more manageable 3rd down and maybe could have marched down the field.
-IF Zim was more aggressive on defense, he would have made Matt Moore crumble (like he did towards the end)
-IF Colquitt didnt shank that punt maybe we hold them and go to OT.

....I can keep going. Point is, you can sit here and nitpick players, units, coaches, etc all day. Bottom line is, everyone is to blame at some point or another because it's a team game. Everyone had their hand in the loss somehow. But if anyone is going to come on here and mainly direct it at Cousins, I will say, you're dead wrong.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:16 pm

Dames wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:00 pm
I think the stupid record vs winning teams stat is so overstated... it's a team stat that is being attributed to one player. Confirmation bias at it's finest.

That said, it's maybe fair to say that Cousins doesn't have a very good track record as being the guy to pull off a miracle or carry the team in the clutch. Specifically looking at his track record with the Vikings, he hasn't exactly come through often in the clutch. (GB last year is one example, but it still ended in a tie.) He can make some great plays, absolutely, and his stats for the games are often excellent. But, with the game on the line, I'm not sure anyone really has the confidence that he'll put us a position to win. I'll hope for it every time of course, and often times it's not his fault that it doesn't work out. But, when you bring in a guy like this to lead your team, we all expect a bit more sometimes. That's not unreasonable, and it comes with the territory.

To be fair though, there are not many QB's in the league that truly offer this element of the game, and it's not like they have a 100% success rate doing it.

Very well said regarding the record stat Dames

To me, Cousins proved something to me against KC. Even though he was inaccurate more than usual and pressure was often in his face, the run game not working, defense not stepping up, etc, he didnt let it ruin his game. He didnt let it get to him and crumble under pressure. He actually responded fairly well in pressure situations. Like throwing a TD pass on 3rd down in the redzone when we need a TD. Continuing to fire back every time KC took a lead. That showed me something. Maybe not others but I was glad to see him go toe to toe when everything around him was crapping the bed. Unfortunately we came up short.

He was pressured 9 total times I believe. Was 0 for 9 when pressured. Held the ball the 5th longest of any QB in week 9 and was sacked once.

The two TD passes to Rudolph and Johnson were nice reads, throws AND a great play call. The Vikings took advantage of something they saw on tape, twice. That isn't to take anything away from what Cousins did on those plays, but our OC deserves credit as well.

Cousins was off on Sunday, against a playoff team. Not horrible, just off. Just like he was off, against the Bears, the Packers, the Bears twice last year, the Saints, the Seahawks and the Patriots.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:27 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:19 pm

If he played competently (hit open receivers, deliver the ball on time, not slide before the sticks, etc) there are probably two to three fewer possessions for the opposition offense and likely more points scored by our offense.

And,

-IF the OL wasnt getting pushed back into Cook every time, we could have killed more clock and controlled the game more.
-IF the defense stepped up and stopped Matt Moore when we needed them to, we would have won.
-IF Stefanski didnt call a screen to Irv Smith that lost 7 yards we would have still had a more manageable 3rd down and maybe could have marched down the field.
-IF Zim was more aggressive on defense, he would have made Matt Moore crumble (like he did towards the end)
-IF Colquitt didnt shank that punt maybe we hold them and go to OT.

....I can keep going. Point is, you can sit here and nitpick players, units, coaches, etc all day. Bottom line is, everyone is to blame at some point or another because it's a team game. Everyone had their hand in the loss somehow. But if anyone is going to come on here and mainly direct it at Cousins, I will say, you're dead wrong.

Yep and IF my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle....IF, coulda, shoulda...Not that I like Belichick but just do your job.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:27 pm ....I can keep going. Point is, you can sit here and nitpick players, units, coaches, etc all day. Bottom line is, everyone is to blame at some point or another because it's a team game. Everyone had their hand in the loss somehow. But if anyone is going to come on here and mainly direct it at Cousins, I will say, you're dead wrong.

What is your deal with defending Cousins?

I get what you're saying and agree that Cousins doesn't deserve to be primarily blamed for the loss, but any objective look at his performance and it personified the famous words of Dennis Green - "He was who we thought he was".

He was 19 of 38, and 12 of 24 on less than 10 yard attempts. Think about that for a minute. A veteran, NFL starting QB completed 50% of his short passing attempts, and some of the ones he completed required some nifty adjustments by his receivers.

On a 3rd-and-something play where he scrambled and could have gained the 1st down, he didn't know where the line to gain was. There was a slow motion shot of him looking at the sideline to see that as he went into his slide. That is not the time to find that out, and no QB worth his salt is going to realize that at that point in the play. I can go further and argue an even more basic point, though. That being, if the QB doesn't know where the line to gain is, don't slide at all. You slide when you know. If you don't, you don't slide period.

Kirk Cousins was a liability against the Chiefs. He might not have lost them the game by himself, but he wasn't good enough. Not even close. If he has a 70-80% completion rate on the majority of the safe throws he attempted, if he hits on even a single one of the 3-4 deep attempts he made, the Vikings likely win the game outright.

As it stands, he played to his reputation, at least how I see it. And I expect to see it again this Sunday against the Cowboys, not because I'm a pessimist, but because I'm being realistic, and to this point in his career Cousins has yet to demonstrate anything different. The Cowboys have a much better defense than the Chiefs.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:33 am ...As for KC, he was the only reason we were in that game.

I don't get this reasoning. You don't think another QB could do better than 18-38 for 220yds 3/0 against a team that was selling out to stop the run?

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:28 pm not because I'm a pessimist, but because I'm being realistic

I'll take "Things I Used To Say" for $1000, Alex.

I'm just messing around, of course.

I'm not willing to say you're wrong about Cousins, because it might hold true. For me, the jury is still out on what he can do for the Vikings this year. We're half way through year 2, and so far the year has been pretty successful. Far from perfect, but good enough to give us a 6-3 record. I'll hold off on calling him a bust until the end of this year. If we do nothing this year again, I'm guessing we'll start preparing to move on anyway. Right now, he's the QB we have, and I'm far from giving up on the season.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:27 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:19 pm

If he played competently (hit open receivers, deliver the ball on time, not slide before the sticks, etc) there are probably two to three fewer possessions for the opposition offense and likely more points scored by our offense.

Point is, you can sit here and nitpick players, units, coaches, etc all day. Bottom line is, everyone is to blame at some point or another because it's a team game.

I never said otherwise.

If you are happy with Kirk Cousins performance in that game, that's fine with me. I don't need you to see his shortcomings.

808vikingsfan wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:34 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:33 am ...As for KC, he was the only reason we were in that game.

I don't get this reasoning. You don't think another QB could do better than 18-38 for 220yds 3/0 against a team that was selling out to stop the run?

He threw for 3 TDs. What more is there to say?

A QB that can usually only string together 3 or 4 good games in the regular season, probably isn't the type of QB that'll be able to string together 3 or 4 in the playoffs against all quality teams.

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:16 pm A QB that can usually only string together 3 or 4 good games in the regular season, probably isn't the type of QB that'll be able to string together 3 or 4 in the playoffs against all quality teams.

One could effectively argue that Cousins has had 1 bad game this year (Bears).

The game against the Chiefs that was definitely a mixed bag, but he still threw 3 TD with 0 turnovers.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:28 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:16 pm

Very well said regarding the record stat Dames

To me, Cousins proved something to me against KC. Even though he was inaccurate more than usual and pressure was often in his face, the run game not working, defense not stepping up, etc, he didnt let it ruin his game. He didnt let it get to him and crumble under pressure. He actually responded fairly well in pressure situations. Like throwing a TD pass on 3rd down in the redzone when we need a TD. Continuing to fire back every time KC took a lead. That showed me something. Maybe not others but I was glad to see him go toe to toe when everything around him was crapping the bed. Unfortunately we came up short.

He was pressured 9 total times I believe. Was 0 for 9 when pressured. Held the ball the 5th longest of any QB in week 9 and was sacked once.

The two TD passes to Rudolph and Johnson were nice reads, throws AND a great play call. The Vikings took advantage of something they saw on tape, twice. That isn't to take anything away from what Cousins did on those plays, but our OC deserves credit as well.

Cousins was off on Sunday, against a playoff team. Not horrible, just off. Just like he was off, against the Bears, the Packers, the Bears twice last year, the Saints, the Seahawks and the Patriots.

If a play scores a TD, when would you not give credit to the OC for the play call? It sounds like taking away from what Cousins did is exactly what you are doing. I've never heard of a team scoring a TD and people not giving the OC credit.

How Cousins played against the Chiefs isnt comparable to Bears games, how he played vs. Seattle and New England last year. It just isnt.

Again, I dont care about your obsession with how long he held the ball. It means nothing and I proved last time how it's an inconsistent stat but you're so hooked to it. I proved that much of it is due to how this offense is ran and the plays that are called. Enough with that stat. You're beating a dead horse and think you're proving something each time. It proves nothing. Zero. So I dont know why you continue to bring it up

Dames wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:14 pm I'm not willing to say you're wrong about Cousins, because it might hold true. For me, the jury is still out on what he can do for the Vikings this year. We're half way through year 2, and so far the year has been pretty successful. Far from perfect, but good enough to give us a 6-3 record. I'll hold off on calling him a bust until the end of this year. If we do nothing this year again, I'm guessing we'll start preparing to move on anyway. Right now, he's the QB we have, and I'm far from giving up on the season.

The jury is still out on what he, and the rest of the team, for that matter, can accomplish the rest of this year. If they make the playoffs and catch fire at the right time, they're certainly talented enough to make it happen, and to his credit, Cousins has shown he can play well for stretches. I would never say that couldn't happen, but it sure also seems like the kind of wishful thinking I've had regarding the Vikings for basically the entire time I've been a fan of the team.

But as far as his career to this point, Cousin hasn't played great against better competition. He doesn't appear to be someone who raises his game to the necessary level to get his team over whatever hump it faces ala a Rodgers or a Brady. In fact, in those key moments it seems a lot more likely he figuratively will slide a yard short of the 1st down than put his head down and bull forward to get it.

You know, the funny thing in all this is, I would love nothing better than to have Kirk Cousins make me eat crow by the end of this year. Nothing better than to watch him prove me wrong. The whole team prove me wrong, for that matter. I would gladly do it too.

Now, as far as you specifically are concerned, I am beginning to wonder if you are saying what you need to say due to our bet on this upcoming game....

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:30 pm

Dames wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:14 pm I'm not willing to say you're wrong about Cousins, because it might hold true. For me, the jury is still out on what he can do for the Vikings this year. We're half way through year 2, and so far the year has been pretty successful. Far from perfect, but good enough to give us a 6-3 record. I'll hold off on calling him a bust until the end of this year. If we do nothing this year again, I'm guessing we'll start preparing to move on anyway. Right now, he's the QB we have, and I'm far from giving up on the season.

The jury is still out on what he, and the rest of the team, for that matter, can accomplish the rest of this year. If they make the playoffs and catch fire at the right time, they're certainly talented enough to make it happen, and to his credit, Cousins has shown he can play well for stretches. I would never say that couldn't happen, but it sure also seems like the kind of wishful thinking I've had regarding the Vikings for basically the entire time I've been a fan of the team.

But as far as his career to this point, Cousin hasn't played great against better competition. He doesn't appear to be someone who raises his game to the necessary level to get his team over whatever hump it faces ala a Rodgers or a Brady. In fact, in those key moments it seems a lot more likely he figuratively will slide a yard short of the 1st down than put his head down and bull forward to get it.

You know, the funny thing in all this is, I would love nothing better than to have Kirk Cousins make me eat crow by the end of this year. Nothing better than to watch him prove me wrong. The whole team prove me wrong, for that matter. I would gladly do it too.

Now, as far as you specifically are concerned, I am beginning to wonder if you are saying what you need to say due to our bet on this upcoming game....

That crow would taste like prime rib, I can tell you that right now.

Dames wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:45 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:16 pm A QB that can usually only string together 3 or 4 good games in the regular season, probably isn't the type of QB that'll be able to string together 3 or 4 in the playoffs against all quality teams.

One could effectively argue that Cousins has had 1 bad game this year (Bears).

The game against the Chiefs that was definitely a mixed bag, but he still threw 3 TD with 0 turnovers.

Two. The Packers game was by far his worst game of the season as there was really no excuse for him playing poorly in that game.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:30 pm The jury is still out on what he, and the rest of the team, for that matter, can accomplish the rest of this year. If they make the playoffs and catch fire at the right time, they're certainly talented enough to make it happen, and to his credit, Cousins has shown he can play well for stretches. I would never say that couldn't happen, but it sure also seems like the kind of wishful thinking I've had regarding the Vikings for basically the entire time I've been a fan of the team.

But as far as his career to this point, Cousin hasn't played great against better competition. He doesn't appear to be someone who raises his game to the necessary level to get his team over whatever hump it faces ala a Rodgers or a Brady. In fact, in those key moments it seems a lot more likely he figuratively will slide a yard short of the 1st down than put his head down and bull forward to get it.

You'll get no argument from me regarding that. He hasn't proven it, especially since he's been with the Vikings. I keep hoping he will. So, yup, wishful thinking? Perhaps!

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:30 pm You know, the funny thing in all this is, I would love nothing better than to have Kirk Cousins make me eat crow by the end of this year. Nothing better than to watch him prove me wrong. The whole team prove me wrong, for that matter. I would gladly do it too.

Nothing would make me happier (well, regarding the Vikings). Not the eating crow part, but getting the big win we all want.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:30 pm Now, as far as you specifically are concerned, I am beginning to wonder if you are saying what you need to say due to our bet on this upcoming game....

Uh oh. Busted. I was hoping you forgot about that.

If I they lose, I'll just post right after the game, and I'll probably have plenty of pessimistic thoughts. I might need to rant a little for my own sanity if they lay an egg in Dallas.