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It just seems like Frazier sees the light when things are too late though. If Ponder is awful in first half...he will be benched at half time.

NextQuestion wrote:It just seems like Frazier sees the light when things are too late though. If Ponder is awful in first half...he will be benched at half time.

Maybe if Ponder is awful *and* the Vikings are trailing by a couple of scores. Everything looks rosy when you have a running back gaining 100 yards in a half and scoring TDs. Then you can convince yourself that the godawful QB is actually 'managing' the game.

NextQuestion wrote:It just seems like Frazier sees the light when things are too late though. If Ponder is awful in first half...he will be benched at half time.

Basedo on the quotes from Moth this take seems off to me. Frasier obviously knows what is wrong. The appropriate criticism IMO is to ask why, if they have ID'ed the problem, haven't they fixed it? Of course, we as fans may have to accept an answer of "it takes time to figure some of this out."

Not that Ponder is flashing anything near Aaron Rogers, but I recall in the early parts of his career he was accused of the opposite issue to Ponder, ie holding the ball too long. He worked through it.

For me the question on Ponder is "can he be the guy?" He obviously is not showing us that now, but he is still just 20 games into his career. When is appropraite time to label him a bust? That time may have come for some, but I'm no there yet.

mansquatch wrote:For me the question on Ponder is "can he be the guy?" He obviously is not showing us that now, but he is still just 20 games into his career. When is appropraite time to label him a bust? That time may have come for some, but I'm no there yet.

I'm not either. 5 games ago he was 25-35 for 258 yards, 2 TDs and 2 INTs in a blowout win over the Titans. The 2 INTs obviously weren't a good thing but those numbers are a far cry from what he put up last weekend and they weren't so long ago that there's reason to believe he can never perform at that level again. However, his apparent lack of confidence and skittishness in the pocket are serious concerns.

It will be interesting to see how he performs going into the bye week. A good game against Detroit followed by a few weeks to rest, re-focus and work on his game might do wonders. A bad game... well, considering who the Vikes play coming out of the bye, that could be very bad news indeed.

Mothman wrote: Whether fans like Frazier or not, he's no fool. He sees exactly what's going on with his QB and he's talking about it too.

Jim

Frazier seems to think if Ponder did these things right once he can do them again. The problem is, when he was doing it right defenses weren't honed in to take away Harvin and the short passes and scrambles Ponder thrived on early. Now that they are (and other things are being left open as a result - no defense can take it all way no matter how good), is Ponder still capable of doing those same things? That's where it's breaking down for me in terms of what Frazier is saying. Maybe Frazier isn't absolving Ponder per se, but he sure as heck isn't asking the question "What is my QB doing now to take advantage of how defenses have shifted to play him"? That's the question. And the answer is, as long as Ponder

- can't get settled in the pocket and read the field
- can't mentally control himself to find a place to set his feet and fire the ball with good mechanics whether he's scrambling or in the pocket
- can't deliver simple passes with consistent accuracy

He won't be able to do anything to take advantage of how defenses are playing him. Even if he recognizes it (which I don't think he does), it's not going to matter because these fundamentals are what is killing him.

Defenses are now *begging* to be hit deep, especially in the middle of the field. That is where AD is doing the majority of his damage, and that is where the safeties who are essential to limiting that damage have to focus. There should be opportunities in the deep and mid-range parts of the field, especially off play action. Where are those attempts? I'm not saying completions - just attempts? Where is the vision to set up off the play action, scan that part of the field, and throw a guy open?

Ponder will not go near that part of the field lately. He's too afraid of throwing a pick, missing a guy in coverage who might jump it and pick it off. He's not comfortable with the time it will take for a route in that area to come open. By the time it would, he's off and running already and his focus is the sidelines. About the only mid-field attempts I've seen from Ponder are dumps to his RB or TE. There simply has to be more there for the taking given the damage AD is doing on runs up the middle.

But you can't hurt them deep if you're not going to throw it there, and Ponder will not do it. His deep throws are limited to heaves up the sideline hoping to get a PI on a usually under-thrown ball.

VikingLord wrote:Defenses are now *begging* to be hit deep, especially in the middle of the field. That is where AD is doing the majority of his damage, and that is where the safeties who are essential to limiting that damage have to focus. There should be opportunities in the deep and mid-range parts of the field, especially off play action. Where are those attempts? I'm not saying completions - just attempts? Where is the vision to set up off the play action, scan that part of the field, and throw a guy open?

The problem keeps going back to lack of execution across the board by Ponder, yes, but to an underperforming line and receiving corps. Frazier said today that Simpson hasn't been the same guy since his injury and basically said the speed that makes him dangerous isn't there. So it's clear he's not creating separation. Harvin is the only other guy that can/should be able to get a step (or more), but he's being shut down first by extra attention sent his way and the injury situation to his hamstring and now ankle. Both Simpson and Harvin have had their opportunities with longer shots in the last couple of weeks.

Linebackers and safeties are taking away Rudolph (though I think Ponder is scared to pull the trigger on throws to Rudolph even when covered now as opposed to training camp and the preseason when Rudolph couldn't be stopped in similar situations). Via Pelissero:

Among other things, Frazier said the Vikings must find ways to work the middle of the field with tight end Kyle Rudolph, who has only two catches for 17 yards over the past three games.

Rudolph leads the Vikings with five touchdown catches but hasn't had a reception for longer than 18 yards since the opener, doing most of his damage in the red zone and short yardage.

"We need to find a way to uncover him in regular downs in a series as well," Frazier said. "That's one of the things we're working on for this ballgame. We're going to try to do some things to get him involved.

"It'll help our offense not to just work the perimeter with the wideouts, but to get Kyle involved as well. People are doing some things coverage-wise to try to affect him because we haven't hit some plays down the field, so they're trying to take our intermediate route game away. But we still have to find ways to get Kyle some touches."

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Viki ... game110712

I'm glad they're going to make this a priority.

And you've seen the offensive line's inability to protect Ponder for more than a second or two on his rare passing "attempts." Dialing up more deep plays would be detrimental if the line can't protect Ponder long enough for him to set his feet and find a guy. This is exactly the problem that Cutler faced under Martz and you saw how that turned out. Until they solve the protection issues (or counter them with screens, draws, etc.) attacking the deep part of the field, while perhaps ripe for the picking, is not going to be effective.

But you can't hurt them deep if you're not going to throw it there, and Ponder will not do it. His deep throws are limited to heaves up the sideline hoping to get a PI on a usually under-thrown ball.

I disagree. He's thrown some excellent deep passes. Have they all been perfect? No. But no QB does it perfectly all the time. But it's not like he can't complete the deep passes. He's shown he can. Some, in fact, have been those "wow" throws. And some that he just throws up he's expecting his receiver to make a play. The same thing other QBs do that have confidence in their guys. That's what Simpson was brought here to do and you can't say he hasn't been given those opportunities.

VikingLord wrote:Frazier seems to think if Ponder did these things right once he can do them again. The problem is, when he was doing it right defenses weren't honed in to take away Harvin and the short passes and scrambles Ponder thrived on early. Now that they are (and other things are being left open as a result - no defense can take it all way no matter how good), is Ponder still capable of doing those same things? That's where it's breaking down for me in terms of what Frazier is saying. Maybe Frazier isn't absolving Ponder per se, but he sure as heck isn't asking the question "What is my QB doing now to take advantage of how defenses have shifted to play him"?

Of course he's asking that question. There's no way Frazier and his staff aren't scrutinizing what defenses have been doing to their passing offense, assessing how Ponder is reacting and considering what they can do to make their passing game more successful. His comments lately suggest they are looking very closely at how defenses have been playing the Vikings and how the Vikes can respond effectively.

Here's a link to yet another article that indicates it:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Viki ... 110712?t=2

Defenses are now *begging* to be hit deep, especially in the middle of the field. That is where AD is doing the majority of his damage, and that is where the safeties who are essential to limiting that damage have to focus. There should be opportunities in the deep and mid-range parts of the field, especially off play action. Where are those attempts? I'm not saying completions - just attempts? Where is the vision to set up off the play action, scan that part of the field, and throw a guy open?

That's a good question but it begs another: how often are they even running seam routes, deep crosses and other patterns designed to exploit the deep middle of the field?

Ponder will not go near that part of the field lately. He's too afraid of throwing a pick, missing a guy in coverage who might jump it and pick it off. He's not comfortable with the time it will take for a route in that area to come open. By the time it would, he's off and running already and his focus is the sidelines. About the only mid-field attempts I've seen from Ponder are dumps to his RB or TE. There simply has to be more there for the taking given the damage AD is doing on runs up the middle.

The best pass he threw last weekend was a route to Simpson over the middle so it's not as if they make no effort at all to go there and clearly, he can make those throws when he's simply executes.

But you can't hurt them deep if you're not going to throw it there, and Ponder will not do it. His deep throws are limited to heaves up the sideline hoping to get a PI on a usually under-thrown ball.

First it was "why will they never throw deep?" Then they started throwing deep more often and it was "Why are they forcing the ball?". Now there are repeated complaints about only throwing deep down the sidelines... the goalposts keep moving and there are way too many inaccurate generalizations flying around. I read all these comments about what the Vikes and Ponder absolutely will not do and then I watch the games and they're doing them (or trying to do them).

I get it. You're frustrated. I'm frustrated. Everyone's frustrated and what we really want to see is success on whatever routes they're running. However, can we please base criticism on what's happening, not on assumptions? Are the deep throws you want to see down the middle there? Are they running many of those routes and are they open? Just because Ponder is struggling it's not fair to simply assume he absolutely won't throw the particular deep routes you want to see. Are they being called? Are they open? Is he getting time to hit them when they are called and open?

I think if we look at Ponder’s in game performance it is quite realistic to say that the majority of his issues are mental in nature.

Skittish in the pocket = Fear / game speed / trust issues. All Mental
Poor Decisions: Mental
Not Seeing the Field: Mental unless he goes to see Troy Williamson’s Eye Doctor. (still mental)

The point being, these things are fixable and certainly fall into the realm of inexperience. Again the question is still “can he overcome it?” As much as Frasier is telling us they are aware of the issues, we also have to recognize that some of these things might take the rest of the season to figure out. Ponder has to learn to trust some of his guys, and that assumes they deserve his trust. Decision Making took a leap forward overall this year, but he has regressed some, I think this will come back. The pocket stuff is probably going to take a few more weeks to get straightened out, maybe the whole season. Part of it is trusting his protection, which right now he has good reason not to.

Moving on, what they are saying about Rudolph I kind of wonder why they do not promote one of the other TE on the roster and use them in the 2 TE sets? Ellison has shown the ability to go out and catch a pass. He isn’t the threat that Rudolph represents, but they need another option and the current crop of WR isn’t getting it done.

In retrospect we are seeing that the Front Office did makes efforts to address what is happening to us. As of right now, they have whiffed on both Simpson and Carlson, whether it be due to injuries or something else, and that has dramatically hurt us. I’d even go so far to say that if we had 2011 Percy Harvin we’d probably not have the 5 wins, the Vikes got lucky in that he has taken his game to a whole new level, which was able to offset the mediocrity elsewhere in the receiving corps.
At least this isn’t happening after the Bye week…

dead_poet wrote: I disagree. He's thrown some excellent deep passes. Have they all been perfect? No. But no QB does it perfectly all the time. But it's not like he can't complete the deep passes. He's shown he can. Some, in fact, have been those "wow" throws. And some that he just throws up he's expecting his receiver to make a play. The same thing other QBs do that have confidence in their guys. That's what Simpson was brought here to do and you can't say he hasn't been given those opportunities.

Ponder had a 2.9 YPA with a long of 14 against the Seahawks and despite that coupled with a HUGE day from AD still managed to complete less than 60% of his attempts. That's beyond pathetic.

I'd argue that what protective bubble Ponder played in early this season and/or last year that allowed him to manage those deep throws you're talking about has popped. I'm now waiting to see him do it without his safety blanket and pacifier. I want to see him make a play like that after things have broken down and he's got to identify and hit a guy down the field in a tight window.

I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting a LONG time to see that if I ever do.

Mothman wrote: I get it. You're frustrated. I'm frustrated. Everyone's frustrated and what we really want to see is success on whatever routes they're running. However, can we please base criticism on what's happening, not on assumptions? Are the deep throws you want to see down the middle there? Are they running many of those routes and are they open? Just because Ponder is struggling it's not fair to simply assume he absolutely won't throw the particular deep routes you want to see. Are they being called? Are they open? Is he getting time to hit them when they are called and open?

How can those routes NOT be called with the way AD is playing? How can they NOT be open? You have Beast Mode ripping the defense a new one on almost every carry in the 1st half to the tune of what, 10.7 YPC. The Hawks were on the ropes. They had to sell out to stop AD and they were. How can any competent NFL OC not dial up some plays to take advantage of that kind of imbalance?

You're painting this out like there are reasonable possibilities to explain what we're NOT seeing from Ponder. I agree those explanations are possibilities. What I don't agree with is that they are reasonable, because they are not. If Frazier can see what is lacking in Ponder, then he sure as heck knows what happens when an RB goes into Beast Mode like AD did on Sunday, and he should know how to attack that to exploit it.

QB's dream of having an RB go off like that, especially in the pros, because it rarely happens, and it does (not should - DOES) open up gaping holes in the secondary that any mildly competent QB should eat alive. Ponder? 2.9 YPA. Long of 14. Missing bubble screens badly because he's falling backwards when he's throwing. Missing wide open guys on rollouts because he's not setting his feet and/or jumping when he throws.

Ponder is going to get his chance this year. I just wish I didn't have to watch it. Harvin has every right to be frustrated with this garbage play at the QB position. He won't be alone before too long.

VikingLord wrote:How can those routes NOT be called with the way AD is playing? How can they NOT be open? You have Beast Mode ripping the defense a new one on almost every carry in the 1st half to the tune of what, 10.7 YPC. The Hawks were on the ropes. They had to sell out to stop AD and they were. How can any competent NFL OC not dial up some plays to take advantage of that kind of imbalance?

He probably did but there's more than one way to do that. I'm not saying those plays never get called or that receivers never get open on them. I'm just saying that assuming Ponder will not throw those routes because he's afraid is just that: an assumption. What I'm asking is whether there are actual examples to support the assumption.

You're painting this out like there are reasonable possibilities to explain what we're NOT seeing from Ponder. I agree those explanations are possibilities. What I don't agree with is that they are reasonable, because they are not. If Frazier can see what is lacking in Ponder, then he sure as heck knows what happens when an RB goes into Beast Mode like AD did on Sunday, and he should know how to attack that to exploit it.

I agree but knowing how to exploit it and successfully exploiting it are two completely different things. I suspect every coach in the NFL knows in theory how to attack a particular defense but it's what actually happens on the field that determines the outcome of the plays.

VikingLord wrote:How can those routes NOT be called with the way AD is playing? How can they NOT be open? You have Beast Mode ripping the defense a new one on almost every carry in the 1st half to the tune of what, 10.7 YPC. The Hawks were on the ropes. They had to sell out to stop AD and they were. How can any competent NFL OC not dial up some plays to take advantage of that kind of imbalance?

Feels like we've been asking this question since AD was a rookie. Constantly 8 or 9 in the box and really Favre was the only one able to exploit it. And even then, it was only for a year and for which he took a massive beating. We've gone through a number of QB's and even coordinators with the same result. The only common denominator through it all is Frazier and Spielman. They may not have been in the same roles as they are now, but they have been part of the staff all along. It isn't much of a stretch to conclude maybe they're part of the problem.

And before anyone mentions it, yes I realize a DC has nothing to do with the offense, however, I think when you're assembling a staff there's a common philosophy that everyone buys into. Childress picked Frazier, it therefore isn't unreasonable to assume they share certain philosophies on how the game should be played. Lets face it, what we see on the field is very much Chiliball 2.0. I still think it was a mistake not to do a full purge when Childress was fired. We can bring in another OC, another QB, and do the whole song and dance all over but it's moot if the antiquated philosophy remains.

S197 wrote: Feels like we've been asking this question since AD was a rookie. Constantly 8 or 9 in the box and really Favre was the only one able to exploit it. And even then, it was only for a year and for which he took a massive beating. We've gone through a number of QB's and even coordinators with the same result. The only common denominator through it all is Frazier and Spielman. They may not have been in the same roles as they are now, but they have been part of the staff all along. It isn't much of a stretch to conclude maybe they're part of the problem.

And before anyone mentions it, yes I realize a DC has nothing to do with the offense, however, I think when you're assembling a staff there's a common philosophy that everyone buys into. Childress picked Frazier, it therefore isn't unreasonable to assume they share certain philosophies on how the game should be played. Lets face it, what we see on the field is very much Chiliball 2.0. I still think it was a mistake not to do a full purge when Childress was fired. We can bring in another OC, another QB, and do the whole song and dance all over but it's moot if the antiquated philosophy remains.

You're probably on to something there. I can't remember for sure but was musgrave hired before spielman got promoted? I do think Childress and Musgrave are fakes that benefited from their situations. For example Childress got a lot of credit come hiring time for the eagles successful WCO when really Andy Reid ran the show. Musgrave because he happened to be in Atlanta when they were developing a top QB prospect and had a fairly decent offense we wanted to emulate.

Unfortunately Musgrave is like someone who doesn't know how to cook. He may have had the recipe on paper from Atlanta but has no idea what to do when you have pork instead of chicken, electric instead of gas, Mayo instead of ketchup! Unfortunately we couldn't bring the Falcons roster with him

mondry wrote:You're probably on to something there. I can't remember for sure but was musgrave hired before spielman got promoted?

Yes. Musgrave was hired last season and Spielman was promoted earlier this year.

Mothman wrote: Yes. Musgrave was hired last season and Spielman was promoted earlier this year.

Story on Musgrave hire:

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2011/0 ... oordinator

Story on Spielman promotion:

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2012/0 ... elman-to-g