Vikings @ Lions

[Alaskan]

This team is not competitive. Period. And IMO this is 100% tied to our horrid, abysmal drafting record the past several years.

You simply cannot whiff on your entire draft class year after year after year and expect to be competitive three years down the road.

I agree, No question this isn’t a competitive team. And I almost exclusively blame KOC and the staff he has put together. Ed Donatell and that system of his and the players drafted into that system on year one of this Regime was almost criminal. All KOC, he hired him to be the DC. The influence that KOC and his coordinators have on the types of player the scouts look for to fit the systems they want to run is never discussed here. The GM doesn’t just pick these player because HE thinks they will be the best fits and doesn’t unilaterally decide the area of the most need. The coaches and the systems drive all of this. If I was the GM KOC’s seat would be getting hotter by the week. Normally, I don’t agree with changing out head coaches after 4 years on the job but in the case of KOC I just feel His approach is flawed, it will never yield a true contender.

[CharVike]

KOC cannot abandon the run and call long developing plays in this game. Dink and dunk short passing game and RUN THE BALL

It's the only chance they have to keep it close and save JJ from getting killed. so far I have not seen this from KOC as the Vikings coach.

Dink and dunk and run the ball. Tell the D to drop 8 in the box Good luck running the ball. Good luck with dink and dunk. When they get picked it's see ya later. How about max protect and heave it down field? We scored that way last year with a worse OL. Bottom line we don't have an accurate QB. JJM had Nailor wide open down the left side line and missed by a mile. TD and back in the game gone because a bad throw. Dink like that and it's pick 6.

[psjordan]

I definitely feel judging McC this early - OTHER THAN his inability to stay healthy - is way premature. I'm pretty sure KOC knows better than I what potential McC has. So at this point I'm pretty much noncommittal on the kid. Let him play 20 games and I'll have a long-term opinion. And no, I don't care if we are under .500 during that stretch as long as we "find out" what the kid has along the way.

Yes our running game has been putrid, but pretty much every OL and RB on the team has been injured this season (reasons for that are many, my context is in relation to QB play). Playing DET this week is probably not going to set things right in our running game. We have a tough schedule coming, so I don't see great opportunities the remainder of this season to set the world ablaze on the ground.

And I don't see any of this as "excuses for McC". Young QB's need some time in the saddle. It helps if they have an OL and a running game. In fact it helps A LOT. McC won't have that luxury while he learns the ropes. He WILL have Jefferson, Addison and to some extent Hock. I hope he can handle the pressure he will surely see, but that's a tough gig even for a veteran.

And let's not lose sight of the fact that Sam Darnold - yeah, that guy everyone is pining for now - had a QB rating of about 55, two turnovers on downs, helped us go 0-for-4 in the red zone and had really abysmal play last time he played DET. And lost 31-9. If McC has the same stat line this week and we lose 31-9, well, that's not a death knell IMO.

[VikingLord]

Judging McCarthy on his ability to throw when he has the opportunity to throw is completely valid at this point in his career. I'm not going to ding him because the offensive line can't pass block. I'm not going to ding him because the receivers can't get open or drop an otherwise catchable ball. But I will ding him for not taking good care of the football both under pressure and when he throws it. I will ding him for making poor throws to open receivers. I will ding him for making poor decisions that a more prepared QB should not make. Not a more experienced QB - a QB who has put in the time to study the opposing defense and knows their tendencies.

It is too early to say McCarthy is a bust and I don't think I'm saying that because he hasn't had enough time under center to show what he is or what he can really do. I am saying that he has done a poor job so far of taking care of the football and his accuracy has been bad when he does throw it. To me, he looked unprepared against the first two defenses he faced. He made decisions and failed to make decisions that I felt a more prepared QB should be able to make even if he is essentially a rookie. It's really not that high of a bar I'm setting for him to be frank - I feel any starting pro QB should be able to take care of the football, even under duress, and make basic reads and throws if he has time to make those reads and throws and his receivers are open.

If McCarthy is under constant duress against the Lions and literally has no time to throw and/or his receivers can't get open, I won't blame him for that. But if he has time and guys are getting open and he keeps missing them or making dumb mistakes, I will blame him for that, and I would not say that is unreasonable.

[CharVike]

I definitely feel judging McC this early - OTHER THAN his inability to stay healthy - is way premature. I'm pretty sure KOC knows better than I what potential McC has. So at this point I'm pretty much noncommittal on the kid. Let him play 20 games and I'll have a long-term opinion. And no, I don't care if we are under .500 during that stretch as long as we "find out" what the kid has along the way.

Yes our running game has been putrid, but pretty much every OL and RB on the team has been injured this season (reasons for that are many, my context is in relation to QB play). Playing DET this week is probably not going to set things right in our running game. We have a tough schedule coming, so I don't see great opportunities the remainder of this season to set the world ablaze on the ground.

And I don't see any of this as "excuses for McC". Young QB's need some time in the saddle. It helps if they have an OL and a running game. In fact it helps A LOT. McC won't have that luxury while he learns the ropes. He WILL have Jefferson, Addison and to some extent Hock. I hope he can handle the pressure he will surely see, but that's a tough gig even for a veteran.

And let's not lose sight of the fact that Sam Darnold - yeah, that guy everyone is pining for now - had a QB rating of about 55, two turnovers on downs, helped us go 0-for-4 in the red zone and had really abysmal play last time he played DET. And lost 31-9. If McC has the same stat line this week and we lose 31-9, well, that's not a death knell IMO.

Sammy played bad the 1st Lion game also. That team owns us. We are on a 5 game losing streak against them. I'm not giving JJM a death knell but he looks overwhelmed in his first 2 starts. Matter of fact he looked worst the 2nd game. Now it's the wait game for the next who knows how many games or seasons. I assume he'll get the rookie contract to prove his worth. I think letting Sammy walk was stupid. He provided good entertainment for me. I don't feel like watching a QB throw the ball all over the yard I had decades of that. It's not worth the cost in the money sense. Id like to see a different act. The act last year was fine

[Thaumaturgist]

All QBs, even great ones make dumb mistakes, and poor throws, it seems to me like you're expecting perfection, and IMHO, that is unreasonable. What I'd like to see is progression.

[Cliff]

[VikingLord]

All QBs, even great ones make dumb mistakes, and poor throws, it seems to me like you're expecting perfection, and IMHO, that is unreasonable. What I'd like to see is progression.

Perfection? I don't think so.

I expect a starting QB to be able to make basic throws, have a completion percentage near the league average, and take care of the football, especially if said QB has been sold by a QB-friendly head coach as ready to take over as the starter for a team that went 14-3 the prior year and that shipped off the QB who led them to that record.

Right now McCarthy's completion percentage is like dead last or near dead last among QBs who have played a certain number of snaps. He's turned the ball over at a high rate for the number of snaps he's had. The offense has been historically bad while he was under center sans a single quarter against the Bears.

There is an unreasonable line somewhere in this discussion, but I don't think the one I'm drawing is it.

[psjordan]

I expect a starting QB to be able to make basic throws, have a completion percentage near the league average, and take care of the football, especially if said QB has been sold by a QB-friendly head coach as ready to take over as the starter for a team that went 14-3 the prior year and that shipped off the QB who led them to that record.

Speaking for myself, what you are asking for above from a QB who has had two starts in his career (and was not a "thrower" in college) does in fact, seem unreasonable. History has proven some extremely good QB's over time started out with several games meeting less than your above description. In some cases they were still struggling after at least their first dozen games (off the top of my head).

Further burdening it with what you feel KOC has "sold him as" is also unreasonable. McC has no control over how KOC feeds things to fans and media, nor does he have control over roster decisions. Unless your intention was to simultaneously criticize both KOC and McC.

One other unreasonable aspect is implying (if I am reading you correctly) that KOC missed the boat here. Even if KOC ends up being a horrible coach in the long run - and gets kicked out of the league - his sense on what will make a good NFL QB is light years ahead of mine, and likely any other fan out there. So until he gets booted from the league and proven wrong, yes, I'll defer to his QB acumen.

There is an unreasonable line somewhere in this discussion, but I don't think the one I'm drawing is it.

I think I know what you are saying, but I disagree. If we were talking about running backs or linebackers or edge rushers then I may agree - if you don't see it early it ain't gonna be there. But QB's are a different beast. Almost all the skills can be learned, even for the diminutive and less athletic. And the learning for young QB's is hastened by staying healthy and having an above average OL and running game.

This team has been nothing but complete chaos this year, not the ideal environ for a rookie QB. Reasonably, IMO he needs time.

[psjordan]

I definitely feel judging McC this early - OTHER THAN his inability to stay healthy - is way premature. I'm pretty sure KOC knows better than I what potential McC has. So at this point I'm pretty much noncommittal on the kid. Let him play 20 games and I'll have a long-term opinion. And no, I don't care if we are under .500 during that stretch as long as we "find out" what the kid has along the way.

Yes our running game has been putrid, but pretty much every OL and RB on the team has been injured this season (reasons for that are many, my context is in relation to QB play). Playing DET this week is probably not going to set things right in our running game. We have a tough schedule coming, so I don't see great opportunities the remainder of this season to set the world ablaze on the ground.

And I don't see any of this as "excuses for McC". Young QB's need some time in the saddle. It helps if they have an OL and a running game. In fact it helps A LOT. McC won't have that luxury while he learns the ropes. He WILL have Jefferson, Addison and to some extent Hock. I hope he can handle the pressure he will surely see, but that's a tough gig even for a veteran.

And let's not lose sight of the fact that Sam Darnold - yeah, that guy everyone is pining for now - had a QB rating of about 55, two turnovers on downs, helped us go 0-for-4 in the red zone and had really abysmal play last time he played DET. And lost 31-9. If McC has the same stat line this week and we lose 31-9, well, that's not a death knell IMO.

Sammy played bad the 1st Lion game also. That team owns us. We are on a 5 game losing streak against them. I'm not giving JJM a death knell but he looks overwhelmed in his first 2 starts. Matter of fact he looked worst the 2nd game. Now it's the wait game for the next who knows how many games or seasons. I assume he'll get the rookie contract to prove his worth. I think letting Sammy walk was stupid. He provided good entertainment for me. I don't feel like watching a QB throw the ball all over the yard I had decades of that. It's not worth the cost in the money sense. Id like to see a different act. The act last year was fine

Josh Allen's first 12 games he had a 68 QBR, 10 passing TD's, 12 INT's and 8 fumbles. BUF is considered our "home team" locally when I'm up north. They were calling him a complete, inaccurate bust who at least could run.

[psjordan]

Great, yet another thing probably going against us:
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/467 ... -ball-more
DET OC wants to make sure Williams gets the ball. How much do you want to bet that comes against our crappy zone D when we send 5 or 6? Of course it will. Especially because we gave them the draft pick for Williams.

Goff on paper sucks against pressure, so BFlo will be bringing it heavy and often. Side bet that Goff has a QBR above 90 under pressure in this game (I think his QBR under pressure is currently in the 30's if I recall from the article).

If we are even remotely in this game in the 3rd quarter I will be stunned. If we win it will be the end of the world as we know it.

[VikingLord]

This team has been nothing but complete chaos this year, not the ideal environ for a rookie QB. Reasonably, IMO he needs time.

I agree with this. He does need time and hopefully he can stay on the field so he can get that time.

And like I said, if he's under constant duress and no QB could be expected to deal with that he gets a pass. I just expect him to make the plays that are there to be made, or at least make them the majority of the time.

Think of it like Troy Williamson would be evaluated. Williamson didn't get open all the time, and there were other times when he was well covered and the defender made a play to break up the pass. I didn't fault Williamson for those outcomes. But when Williamson was open and the ball was well thrown and it bounced off his facemask, I faulted him for those outcomes. Even the best receivers sometimes drop a well-thrown pass, but it isn't the norm. If it is the norm for a receiver, no matter how experienced or inexperienced he may be, I think it's reasonable to be critical of that level of performance, especially at the pro level of football.

So along those lines is how I'm looking at McCarthy right now. I don't expect him to be a QB god, to escape all pressure, to perfectly handle every situation. But when he's got a clear line of sight to a wide open receiver and he can step into the throw I expect him to be able to put it on the money and in stride so the receiver can not just catch it, but do something after the catch with it if he can. I think to this point McCarthy has not demonstrated he can do that. He's demonstrated an ability to "let the ball bounce off his facemask" to put it into "Williamson terms", but not necessarily an ability to haul in a well-thrown deep ball save the 4th quarter against the Bears.

So I'm looking for him to make those plays. If he can make other plays, that is great, but the basic ones are the bar I'm setting for him and I continue to believe that is not an unreasonable standard, even for a rookie QB.

[VikingLord]

Great, yet another thing probably going against us:
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/467 ... -ball-more
DET OC wants to make sure Williams gets the ball. How much do you want to bet that comes against our crappy zone D when we send 5 or 6? Of course it will. Especially because we gave them the draft pick for Williams.

Goff on paper sucks against pressure, so BFlo will be bringing it heavy and often. Side bet that Goff has a QBR above 90 under pressure in this game (I think his QBR under pressure is currently in the 30's if I recall from the article).

If we are even remotely in this game in the 3rd quarter I will be stunned. If we win it will be the end of the world as we know it.

I think the Lions will give us a heavy dose of Gibbs and Montgomery and prove we can handle that before they turn to Goff, although I also expect Campbell will be looking to hit some deep passes off play action to keep the defense off balance. But I don't think the Lions will need more than Gibbs and Montgomery.

The only way it plays out differently is if the Vikings can somehow get an early lead and make the Lions play from behind. I think the chances of that happening are less than 1% though.

I really don't know how the Vikings fix their run defense at this point. I'm not seeing a combination of front 7 players that can consistently stop the opposing run game even when that run game isn't really all that great. The Lions possess a really strong run game with 2 very talented backs and I expect them to run it early and often unless/until the Vikings prove they can stop it.

[CharVike]

Sammy played bad the 1st Lion game also. That team owns us. We are on a 5 game losing streak against them. I'm not giving JJM a death knell but he looks overwhelmed in his first 2 starts. Matter of fact he looked worst the 2nd game. Now it's the wait game for the next who knows how many games or seasons. I assume he'll get the rookie contract to prove his worth. I think letting Sammy walk was stupid. He provided good entertainment for me. I don't feel like watching a QB throw the ball all over the yard I had decades of that. It's not worth the cost in the money sense. Id like to see a different act. The act last year was fine

Josh Allen's first 12 games he had a 68 QBR, 10 passing TD's, 12 INT's and 8 fumbles. BUF is considered our "home team" locally when I'm up north. They were calling him a complete, inaccurate bust who at least could run.

Many compare JJM to Allen. He will go through some bad games.

[psjordan]

I think the Lions will give us a heavy dose of Gibbs and Montgomery and prove we can handle that before they turn to Goff, although I also expect Campbell will be looking to hit some deep passes off play action to keep the defense off balance. But I don't think the Lions will need more than Gibbs and Montgomery.

Yes, this is how I see it. Supposedly we'll have a relatively intact OL, at least to start the game. If we are smart on O and can move the ball in small chunks, it certainly could limit DET running game from seeing the field.

I just hope it's an entertaining game for at least a quarter. It would be a small miracle if we have less than 3 penalties in the first three minutes. And I hope beyond hope it will look like we are prepared to play from the opening whistle.