JJM out - ankle inury

[CharVike]

Josh Allen didn't play the best against the Falcons either. Falcons are a strange team. Can beat a SB contender/pretender? and get beat by the Panthers 30-0.

[VikingsVictorious]

Josh Allen didn't play the best against the Falcons either. Falcons are a strange team. Can beat a SB contender/pretender? and get beat by the Panthers 30-0.

Wow that is crazy.

[VikingsVictorious]

This one I completely disagree with. I think for this season - barring complete and total ineptitude (and injury) - the starting job is 1000% McCarthy's. There is no way no how they'd throw him on the trash pile in less than 15+ starts - WITH the starting OL they planned on. I really don't see ANY QB doing well behind the MASH unit we are throwing out there on the OL. The absolute last thought I have is "what if Wentz plays TOO well?". Just is not going to happen. I think he'll have some success, yes, just based on veteran wily play. But "good-to-great" QB play - behind THAT OL? Not worried about it.

You're probably right. It is too early to give up on McCarthy given all they've invested in him to this point. But there is something nagging me about the way he's played thus far. To some degree I'm seeing the same things with Dallas Turner who is another guy they invested a lot in. Neither player is showing what makes them worth that confidence the coaches seem to have in them. McCarthy's accuracy has been pretty bad. Even when he completes a throw it's often off target and requires some gymnastics on the part of the receiver to reel it in. Turner just never quite seems to get there on the rush and is often out of position on runs to his side. He's noticeable when he's on the field for not being noticeable.

I don't expect a lot from Wentz, but let's face it - if there is a head coach and set of offensive skill position players that can help a decent QB look good, the Vikings have both of those. And a good QB can mitigate offensive line issues by more quickly reading the field and making better decisions with the football. I think we're going to get a pretty good idea of how McCarthy's play has been affecting the offensive production with Wentz as the QB.

I like what I see of Turner so far. McCarthy way too small a sample size to come to any conclusion.

[VikingsVictorious]

Oh I agree with this assessment - I've been trumpeting Turner's lack of ... well, lack of anything productive after seeing him play in person several times. I'm absolutely putting him in the "he's gonna be a dud so just mentally move on now" category.

McCarthy I'm willing to wait and see. He's at least shown SOME moxie, where I think Turner has shown squat. And QB can be tough to learn and grow at the NFL level. But if McCarthy shows nothing this year, he's likely bound for the dud pile and he and Kwasi can look for jobs elsewhere.

Oh and let me add that guys like Baker Mayfield are proof that sometimes it takes awhile to "get it" as a QB in the NFL. Maybe he's an exception, but it gives guys like McCarthy a much longer leash.

That was Dallas Turners first actual start. He had 5 tackles, 1 sack, 2 QB pressures, and 1 QB hit.

Not the best play someone could possibly have but for his first start it's not bad.

Quite good. Turner is part of the solution and not part of the problem. He is not the Droid you are looking for. Move along.

[psjordan]

One thing that keeps coming up with McCarthy that I wanted to touch on is his draft position. I know they moved up to take him in the top half of the 1st, and I know they did that because they evaluated his potential to justify that draft position, but IIRC there was no consensus that McCarthy was a 1st round pick based on his college production and physical attributes. There were plenty of pre-draft analysts who were very skeptical of him as a prospect coming out. Most had him going high in the 1st because there are so many bad QB-needy teams at the top of the draft and there would be a run on QBs as his draft class had an almost perfect storm of needy teams and QB prospects for those teams to target.
...
But at the end of the day the fact remains that a lot of highly-drafted QBs don't make it even in the best circumstances. The pro game is much faster and more complicated with defensive coordinators picking up on every tell and tendency and tailoring gameplans specifically to target every weakness. Young QBs are particularly challenged to adapt rapidly to what they're seeing. Some manage to do that and some don't. A QB who is taken in the 1st round is just judged to have a higher ceiling than guys taken in lower rounds. In McCarthy's case, I don't think it can be argued he was taken in the 1st based on his demonstrated ability to produce in college or his physical attributes. I think he was taken where he was because of those leadership traits you talk about and his ability to make plays when his team needed them whether that was with his arm or his legs. We did see some of that in the 4th quarter of the game against the Bears, and I think that potential is there.

I agree with these points, the only add-on point I would make is what if KAM actually hit on 2-3 OL recently? I mean D. Jackson looks like a bona fide stud to me, time will tell, but it sure would have been nice to hit on Ingram, Lowe, Rouse or Jurgens (although to be fair, Jurgens is doing what he can under the circumstances). Or instead of Turner maybe getting Zabel SEA or Simmons KC. Even Ratledge DET is kicking some butt out there. With a rock solid OL a rookie QB can have time to learn not to panic, which makes his development that much easier.

[VikingLord]

One thing that keeps coming up with McCarthy that I wanted to touch on is his draft position. I know they moved up to take him in the top half of the 1st, and I know they did that because they evaluated his potential to justify that draft position, but IIRC there was no consensus that McCarthy was a 1st round pick based on his college production and physical attributes. There were plenty of pre-draft analysts who were very skeptical of him as a prospect coming out. Most had him going high in the 1st because there are so many bad QB-needy teams at the top of the draft and there would be a run on QBs as his draft class had an almost perfect storm of needy teams and QB prospects for those teams to target.
...
But at the end of the day the fact remains that a lot of highly-drafted QBs don't make it even in the best circumstances. The pro game is much faster and more complicated with defensive coordinators picking up on every tell and tendency and tailoring gameplans specifically to target every weakness. Young QBs are particularly challenged to adapt rapidly to what they're seeing. Some manage to do that and some don't. A QB who is taken in the 1st round is just judged to have a higher ceiling than guys taken in lower rounds. In McCarthy's case, I don't think it can be argued he was taken in the 1st based on his demonstrated ability to produce in college or his physical attributes. I think he was taken where he was because of those leadership traits you talk about and his ability to make plays when his team needed them whether that was with his arm or his legs. We did see some of that in the 4th quarter of the game against the Bears, and I think that potential is there.

I agree with these points, the only add-on point I would make is what if KAM actually hit on 2-3 OL recently? I mean D. Jackson looks like a bona fide stud to me, time will tell, but it sure would have been nice to hit on Ingram, Lowe, Rouse or Jurgens (although to be fair, Jurgens is doing what he can under the circumstances). Or instead of Turner maybe getting Zabel SEA or Simmons KC. Even Ratledge DET is kicking some butt out there. With a rock solid OL a rookie QB can have time to learn not to panic, which makes his development that much easier.

I just read that Pro Football Focus has Ingram rated as the #1 overall guard in the NFL right now. I'm not sure how they arrive at those rankings but based on what we saw out of him when he was with the Vikings that was an eye-opener as he was repeatedly one of the worst guards as ranked by the same.

I really liked what I saw from Jackson before he was hurt. And to be honest, I liked what I saw from Huber as well even if he had a few bad plays. I know he wasn't drafted but for a rookie to come in and play like he did against one of the best defensive lines in pro football was admirable, to say the least.

Having continuity along the offensive line has to be one of the most under-rated elements of teams that have a chance to compete for a Superbowl. The skill position players get all the press and focus, but having five guys who effectively work as a mini-team within the offense is key to so much of any QB's ultimate success, with a rookie QB's success even more dependent.

We'll see how things look against the Eagles. Compared to the Browns defensive line and even the Steeler defensive line the Eagles line is markedly weaker. I expect the Eagles will throw a lot of pressure at McCarthy to try to throw his timing off and get him moving and making poor decisions. If the Vikings offensive line can pick that up, McCarthy would have an excellent chance to get right against their secondary which is already over-matched.

[CharVike]

Josh Allen didn't play the best against the Falcons either. Falcons are a strange team. Can beat a SB contender/pretender? and get beat by the Panthers 30-0.

Wow that is crazy.

The Falcons have shown they can play D. Plus Robinson could be the best offensive skill player in the NFL. Catch and rush at a high level. That makes a team strong providing they don't have huge holes at other spots. They could surprise. The Bills are a contender supposedly.

[StumpHunter]

Josh Allen didn't play the best against the Falcons either. Falcons are a strange team. Can beat a SB contender/pretender? and get beat by the Panthers 30-0.

They were only the 3rd team since the sack stat has been tracked that ran for over 200 yards, gave up 0 sacks and score 0 points in that game so it gets even weirder.

I think the biggest thing for them though is that Penix is just playing better football. Turns out young QBs need time to play and get better, and Penix has started to finally figure things out. Wouldn't it be nice if our head coach would allow our young QB to do the same?

[CharVike]

I agree with these points, the only add-on point I would make is what if KAM actually hit on 2-3 OL recently? I mean D. Jackson looks like a bona fide stud to me, time will tell, but it sure would have been nice to hit on Ingram, Lowe, Rouse or Jurgens (although to be fair, Jurgens is doing what he can under the circumstances). Or instead of Turner maybe getting Zabel SEA or Simmons KC. Even Ratledge DET is kicking some butt out there. With a rock solid OL a rookie QB can have time to learn not to panic, which makes his development that much easier.

I just read that Pro Football Focus has Ingram rated as the #1 overall guard in the NFL right now. I'm not sure how they arrive at those rankings but based on what we saw out of him when he was with the Vikings that was an eye-opener as he was repeatedly one of the worst guards as ranked by the same.

I really liked what I saw from Jackson before he was hurt. And to be honest, I liked what I saw from Huber as well even if he had a few bad plays. I know he wasn't drafted but for a rookie to come in and play like he did against one of the best defensive lines in pro football was admirable, to say the least.

Having continuity along the offensive line has to be one of the most under-rated elements of teams that have a chance to compete for a Superbowl. The skill position players get all the press and focus, but having five guys who effectively work as a mini-team within the offense is key to so much of any QB's ultimate success, with a rookie QB's success even more dependent.

We'll see how things look against the Eagles. Compared to the Browns defensive line and even the Steeler defensive line the Eagles line is markedly weaker. I expect the Eagles will throw a lot of pressure at McCarthy to try to throw his timing off and get him moving and making poor decisions. If the Vikings offensive line can pick that up, McCarthy would have an excellent chance to get right against their secondary which is already over-matched.

Ingram is in a contract year. Shortly we will see if the PFF rating carries over to the new contact. Should be one of if not the highest paid guards. If that becomes true it will be a great pick who had horrible coaching. Perhaps KAM is a better drafter than I thought. Of course Cine is out of the NFL so the KAM miss still sticks for that one.

[psjordan]

I just read that Pro Football Focus has Ingram rated as the #1 overall guard in the NFL right now. I'm not sure how they arrive at those rankings but based on what we saw out of him when he was with the Vikings that was an eye-opener as he was repeatedly one of the worst guards as ranked by the same.

I really liked what I saw from Jackson before he was hurt. And to be honest, I liked what I saw from Huber as well even if he had a few bad plays. I know he wasn't drafted but for a rookie to come in and play like he did against one of the best defensive lines in pro football was admirable, to say the least.

Having continuity along the offensive line has to be one of the most under-rated elements of teams that have a chance to compete for a Superbowl. The skill position players get all the press and focus, but having five guys who effectively work as a mini-team within the offense is key to so much of any QB's ultimate success, with a rookie QB's success even more dependent.

We'll see how things look against the Eagles. Compared to the Browns defensive line and even the Steeler defensive line the Eagles line is markedly weaker. I expect the Eagles will throw a lot of pressure at McCarthy to try to throw his timing off and get him moving and making poor decisions. If the Vikings offensive line can pick that up, McCarthy would have an excellent chance to get right against their secondary which is already over-matched.

Ingram is in a contract year. Shortly we will see if the PFF rating carries over to the new contact. Should be one of if not the highest paid guards. If that becomes true it will be a great pick who had horrible coaching. Perhaps KAM is a better drafter than I thought. Of course Cine is out of the NFL so the KAM miss still sticks for that one.

Only thing I'll add on the Ingram angle is that our GM is in charge of both finding players to sign and keeping those we want signed. As always, a player leaving is due to many factors - we see the on-the-field stuff but we are not aware of agent/player contract demands, etc. It very well could be our front office thought Ingram was "good to pretty good" but not worth the future money his agent was hinting at. See Bynum, Camryn.

So at the end of the day I look at the GM's job as a collective, in that at any given moment he is largely responsible for the roster as it sits at that point in time, within the constraints of the salary cap. I'm certainly willing to give a lot of leeway in terms of elapsed time for players to develop, but the early returns on KAM's tenure as Chief Roster Builder seem to be lukewarm at best.

Even a guy like Dallas Turner - he may end up a beast but most feel at his price he should be making an immediate, unequivocal and unmistakable impact. As Michael Keaton once said in the classic movie Gung Ho, "I don't see it, I don't get it, I'm not impressed".

[StumpHunter]

I agree with these points, the only add-on point I would make is what if KAM actually hit on 2-3 OL recently? I mean D. Jackson looks like a bona fide stud to me, time will tell, but it sure would have been nice to hit on Ingram, Lowe, Rouse or Jurgens (although to be fair, Jurgens is doing what he can under the circumstances). Or instead of Turner maybe getting Zabel SEA or Simmons KC. Even Ratledge DET is kicking some butt out there. With a rock solid OL a rookie QB can have time to learn not to panic, which makes his development that much easier.

I just read that Pro Football Focus has Ingram rated as the #1 overall guard in the NFL right now. I'm not sure how they arrive at those rankings but based on what we saw out of him when he was with the Vikings that was an eye-opener as he was repeatedly one of the worst guards as ranked by the same.

I am not sure what PFF is seeing, but nothing with Ed has changed:

[CharVike]

Ingram is in a contract year. Shortly we will see if the PFF rating carries over to the new contact. Should be one of if not the highest paid guards. If that becomes true it will be a great pick who had horrible coaching. Perhaps KAM is a better drafter than I thought. Of course Cine is out of the NFL so the KAM miss still sticks for that one.

Only thing I'll add on the Ingram angle is that our GM is in charge of both finding players to sign and keeping those we want signed. As always, a player leaving is due to many factors - we see the on-the-field stuff but we are not aware of agent/player contract demands, etc. It very well could be our front office thought Ingram was "good to pretty good" but not worth the future money his agent was hinting at. See Bynum, Camryn.

So at the end of the day I look at the GM's job as a collective, in that at any given moment he is largely responsible for the roster as it sits at that point in time, within the constraints of the salary cap. I'm certainly willing to give a lot of leeway in terms of elapsed time for players to develop, but the early returns on KAM's tenure as Chief Roster Builder seem to be lukewarm at best.

Even a guy like Dallas Turner - he may end up a beast but most feel at his price he should be making an immediate, unequivocal and unmistakable impact. As Michael Keaton once said in the classic movie Gung Ho, "I don't see it, I don't get it, I'm not impressed".

The future money may have played a role in the decision to move Ingram. But we did give Fries a good long term contract so why not keep a guy that knows the system for about the same price. Only getting a 6th rounder is also weak for a good guard from a team that was desperate. The give up for Turner should have been for a player that provided more of an impact and also is a big need fill. Then we extend Gink which indicates Turner will continue in his current role longer. I could see if Turner fell to us and was a can't miss player like when Moss fell. Addison is a good player from day 1 but his off the field stuff and suspension for a quarter of a game is unacceptable. Who knows what else he is doing behind the scenes. We are a team built on FA and some top players left from the previous group like our OTs and Jetts.

[CharVike]

JJM's press conference he said he's not 100% and I do believe KOC said he wouldn't play until he's 100%. Wentz certainly isn't 100% either.
JJ McCarthy on his ankle: “It's getting there. I wouldn't say it's 100 percent. ... We've got to be smart and understand there's a lot of things that go on. I'm just going to do what I'm told and try to get better”

Does the above make any sense? Sounds like he was told when asked say this.

[CharVike]

Josh Allen didn't play the best against the Falcons either. Falcons are a strange team. Can beat a SB contender/pretender? and get beat by the Panthers 30-0.

They were only the 3rd team since the sack stat has been tracked that ran for over 200 yards, gave up 0 sacks and score 0 points in that game so it gets even weirder.

I think the biggest thing for them though is that Penix is just playing better football. Turns out young QBs need time to play and get better, and Penix has started to finally figure things out. Wouldn't it be nice if our head coach would allow our young QB to do the same?

I never would have guessed that. Penix is playing good most of the time. JJM needs to be out there. He needs to play as much as possible now. KOC/KAM has turned the season into a JJM grooming year.

[CharVike]

We have a short week after this one because of the Thursday night game. I expect Wentz to play the next 2 weeks. If he gets knocked out Brosmer time.