KAM/KOC possible extensions

[CharVike]

I thought I'd start a new thread for this. They are entering the last year of their contracts. From a winning stand point they are the best we have had in our history. That's impressive. From a playoff perspective they have struck out so far. I look at the 49er team and by year 3 that combo had the team in the SB. They used everything including trades to make that happen. Is it fair to compare them to us? I think it is if the goal is the SB in the 1st contract. Now we head into year 4 of the rebuild and it appears that we have most of the pieces in place to make it happen. Including a dominating LT, great WR combo, top TE and a young talented QB. On D we have the pass rushers already in place and a young guy Turner who should help next season. We have proven the ability to stop the run except for Gibbs who owns us. But overall this is a top 10 group especially in the most important stat points allowed. For an offensive HC this is a dream come true. This year our offense collapsed at the end when the lights got brighter and the finger goes to the head guy. That's his forte and responsibility. If a guy can't block, or catch or throw fix it. With a player or scheme adjustments. I will give him a pass because he lost depth when the young guy got hurt so he was stuck with a QB who crashed. Another thing I don't like is our ground game sucks. I don't expect top 10 because we are not a Zim team but you can't be at the bottom. He also needs to figure out a way to present a solid ground game threat at the red zone/goal line. I'm not saying scoring every time but have a threat that defenses must respect and defend. Get them out of all pass coverage. I'm not expecting a SB berth as a must do but I do expect a deep push into the playoffs and no blowout beat down. If that happens then let him go. Otherwise extend him because it's deserved.

[Cliff]

KOC is 34-17 in his tenure and I think it's likely his record would be even better had he not lost his 1st, 2nd, and 3rd string QBs for various time periods in 2023. That's just some epic bad luck. I think there's a good chance the Vikings would have even made the playoffs that year as well if not for that. Probably lost in the first round again, but still a playoff team.

Mike Zimmer went 27-22 his first 3 years and ended up being here a total of 8 years. I'm glad the Wilf's give coaches time to establish themselves and I definitely think KOC has earned the right to keep trying.

KAM I'm far less certain about. That said, I think their fates are pretty intertwined. I expect them both to get extensions.

[CharVike]

If these 2 don't get extended I wonder if that will impact adding free agents?

[Cliff]

If these 2 don't get extended I wonder if that will impact adding free agents?

I don't think so. It all seems to come down to money unless the team is a complete dumpster fire.

[IIsweet]

Honestly, it's ridiculous to even consider replacing these guys. So don't !!!
What the Wilfs have built right now is ridiculously impressive.
Amazing Stadium and facility in Eden Prairie. A young dynamic head coach who leads the team and has players wanting to come here. A young GM that thinks outside the box and takes risks, while hitting on free agent acquisitions.
The Vikings are in better shape than ever and KAM and KOC are reasons why. The competitive rebuild has produced so many wins when we expected years of frustration. Now we sit with a franchise type QB in JJM, have locked up our franchise stars, and we have a ton of FA $....
If anything..... I would scrape the Draft Scout room. KAM and co. are definitely not hitting here. This is definitely a concern. Their draft scouts have not been good for a long time now. I wouldn't bring in Mayock, but Thor Nystrom does his homework as well as anyone. Get a few dudes like him and some good positional scouts. Draft Gurus are needed.
Another problem may be position coaches. Do we have a good OL coach? I dont think so. Who has developed? What about our secondary coaches? When was the last good CB we developed? How about interior DL?
The future of this franchise is in great shape. Could and should be elite if they could draft and develop.

[StumpHunter]

Kwesi is terrible at half his job, and 100% does not deserver an extension. That being said, I give him an extension anyway because I do not want him drafting and making other decisions this off season without one.

A GM who feels like they need to win now to keep their job is incredibly dangerous for a franchise, and they can set back a team years by trading away future picks and spending future cap because they can't afford to think about winning in 2026 when 2025 is the season that lose them their job.

So either fire Kwesi or extend him, but don't leave him on his final year of his deal, and since firing a GM who just had a really good free agency is not likely, extending him is the only way to go.

KOC is less dangerous to keep on his final deal, but I think he has done enough to earn an extension regardless. His teams over achieve in the regular season which makes their playoff losses look worse than they are.

[makila]

Kwesi is terrible at half his job, and 100% does not deserver an extension. That being said, I give him an extension anyway because I do not want him drafting and making other decisions this off season without one.

A GM who feels like they need to win now to keep their job is incredibly dangerous for a franchise, and they can set back a team years by trading away future picks and spending future cap because they can't afford to think about winning in 2026 when 2025 is the season that lose them their job.

So either fire Kwesi or extend him, but don't leave him on his final year of his deal, and since firing a GM who just had a really good free agency is not likely, extending him is the only way to go.

KOC is less dangerous to keep on his final deal, but I think he has done enough to earn an extension regardless. His teams over achieve in the regular season which makes their playoff losses look worse than they are.

Agree with this. You don't want a GM drafting where they are trading away future picks and assets. If you don't think the GM is the guy, make a change. Lame duck GMs are bad for organizations imho. And the drafting criticism for KAM is real.

KOC I'd extend, and wouldn't even think much about it.

[VikingLord]

I think the question with KAM's extension is, is he really all that much better at evaluating veteran free agents than he is evaluating draft picks, or did he just get lucky with his free agent signings relative to his draft picks?

Case-in-point for this question is Kirk Cousins. Everything I read suggested KAM was willing to offer Cousins a nice, fat multi-year deal to remain the Vikings starter at QB. Yes, KAM told Cousins the Vikings would draft a QB high, but Cousins would be the de-facto starter for at least the first year of that deal and likely the next as well.

The only thing that saved KAM from yet more years invested into a proven choker at QB were the Atlanta Falcons who were willing to offer even more money over a longer period of time.

For the record, Cousins went on to have a horrible season this year and basically ended up getting benched midway through the season. It's unclear whether he ever truly healed from his achilles tear, and seems unlikely he's going to be a starter in the league ever again.

So, yeah, there is that, which strikes me as blind luck for KAM.

Ditto for the Darnold signing. KAM brings him in for one year at $10 million with no options for the team to retain his services. Darnold ends up having his best year as a pro, which results in the Vikings now having the 24th pick in the 1st round of the draft and zero leverage to benefit further from Darnold's "Awakenings" season. Did that end up helping or hurting the team's long-term strategy and competitiveness, which ended in back-to-back blowout losses?

I think a lot of NFL GM's rely heavily on good luck, both in the draft and in free agency. The real question for me with GMs is, are they maximizing the positive outcomes when they end up getting lucky while minimizing the negative outcomes when they don't? For example, signing Darnold for 1 year at $10 million is a pretty low-risk move, but why not put a team-favorable option on that deal just in case he plays well? If he plays poorly and/or the team is ready to move on, no biggie, just don't exercise the option. But if he plays well, that option gives the GM some cards to play in advance of the next season.

To be fair to KAM, I think 75% of NFL GMs are probably the same, and KAM is in that group. They all can get lucky or unlucky. Of the remaining 8 GMs, half of those are truly good at what they do, while the other half are truly bad. If a team is going to be perpetually competitive, it needs one of those 4 GMs, and if it wants to avoid being perpetually bad, it needs to avoid or quickly identify and move on from one of the truly bad GMs.

So would I extend KAM if I were the Vikings based on what I've seen? To be honest, I probably would not. I don't think KAM is going to take this team over the top because he just hasn't shown that ability to maximize positive outcomes either in the draft or in free agency. Like Rick Spielman before him, he deals in the realm of luck alone and the results he gets are subject to it's whims. That isn't going to produce a consistent winner in my view.

KOC I would extend. I think KOC will continue to evolve and grow as a coach and his leadership skills are evident. I think he's going to get the most out of JJ McCarthy going forward as well.

[J. Kapp 11]

Honestly, it's ridiculous to even consider replacing these guys. So don't !!!
What the Wilfs have built right now is ridiculously impressive.
Amazing Stadium and facility in Eden Prairie. A young dynamic head coach who leads the team and has players wanting to come here. A young GM that thinks outside the box and takes risks, while hitting on free agent acquisitions.
The Vikings are in better shape than ever and KAM and KOC are reasons why. The competitive rebuild has produced so many wins when we expected years of frustration. Now we sit with a franchise type QB in JJM, have locked up our franchise stars, and we have a ton of FA $....
If anything..... I would scrape the Draft Scout room. KAM and co. are definitely not hitting here. This is definitely a concern. Their draft scouts have not been good for a long time now. I wouldn't bring in Mayock, but Thor Nystrom does his homework as well as anyone. Get a few dudes like him and some good positional scouts. Draft Gurus are needed.
Another problem may be position coaches. Do we have a good OL coach? I dont think so. Who has developed? What about our secondary coaches? When was the last good CB we developed? How about interior DL?
The future of this franchise is in great shape. Could and should be elite if they could draft and develop.

Completely agree with every point you’ve made. I’ll add one.

This comes directly from the NFL Players Association website:

Minnesota, along with Miami, have separated themselves into their own tier in terms of what it means to run a world-class NFL workplace. The Vikings continue to impress across all categories in our second annual survey. Their facilities are incredible; their staff is rated highly by players; and the workplace experience for Vikings players is enhanced by the continued commitment by ownership to providing a world-class experience for players. As an example, Vikings players unanimously believe that their strength staff contribute to their success by supporting each player with the best possible individualized plan; and for the second straight year, Kevin O’Connell stands out as a head coach for whom players enjoy working.

Zygi Wilf ranks second among all club owners and ownership groups, which shows how much confidence players have in his willingness to create a workplace that, in many areas, sets the standard across the NFL.

There is every reason to be optimistic about what the Vikings are building. If you look at the Super Bowl teams and top contenders of the past 20 years, they’ve all had, without exception, one thing in common. They are great organizations.

To me, this is the most important aspect. On the list of everything you need to be a true contender, it’s at the top. It’s above drafting, coaching and everything else. Look at the Jets, Cleveland, Jacksonville, the Raiders, and other perennial losers. Every single one of them has an organization that’s a mess, owners who meddle, or both. Get the organization right, and you’ve got a chance.

According to the NFL players themselves, a great organization is exactly what the Vikings have.

Of course, that doesn’t guarantee success. The Wild exemplify that … great organization, can’t win. The previous front office of the Vikings held us back. They produced occasional winning teams, but they also created a financial mess that led to the god-awful performances of 2020 and 2021. Kwesi’s group has spent 3 years cleaning up the mess. Now they’ve got $75 million in cap space and a high-draft quarterback with four more years on a rookie deal. Add to that an organization and facilities that free agents want to be a part of, and in my view, it points to better times ahead.

As hard as it is to be after 64 years of futility, we Vikings fans need to be patient. Next year, with a rookie quarterback, might not be the year. But I don’t think we’re far off.

[J. Kapp 11]

I think the question with KAM's extension is, is he really all that much better at evaluating veteran free agents than he is evaluating draft picks, or did he just get lucky with his free agent signings relative to his draft picks?

Case-in-point for this question is Kirk Cousins. Everything I read suggested KAM was willing to offer Cousins a nice, fat multi-year deal to remain the Vikings starter at QB. Yes, KAM told Cousins the Vikings would draft a QB high, but Cousins would be the de-facto starter for at least the first year of that deal and likely the next as well.

The only thing that saved KAM from yet more years invested into a proven choker at QB were the Atlanta Falcons who were willing to offer even more money over a longer period of time.

For the record, Cousins went on to have a horrible season this year and basically ended up getting benched midway through the season. It's unclear whether he ever truly healed from his achilles tear, and seems unlikely he's going to be a starter in the league ever again.

So, yeah, there is that, which strikes me as blind luck for KAM.

Ditto for the Darnold signing. KAM brings him in for one year at $10 million with no options for the team to retain his services. Darnold ends up having his best year as a pro, which results in the Vikings now having the 24th pick in the 1st round of the draft and zero leverage to benefit further from Darnold's "Awakenings" season. Did that end up helping or hurting the team's long-term strategy and competitiveness, which ended in back-to-back blowout losses?

I think a lot of NFL GM's rely heavily on good luck, both in the draft and in free agency. The real question for me with GMs is, are they maximizing the positive outcomes when they end up getting lucky while minimizing the negative outcomes when they don't? For example, signing Darnold for 1 year at $10 million is a pretty low-risk move, but why not put a team-favorable option on that deal just in case he plays well? If he plays poorly and/or the team is ready to move on, no biggie, just don't exercise the option. But if he plays well, that option gives the GM some cards to play in advance of the next season.

To be fair to KAM, I think 75% of NFL GMs are probably the same, and KAM is in that group. They all can get lucky or unlucky. Of the remaining 8 GMs, half of those are truly good at what they do, while the other half are truly bad. If a team is going to be perpetually competitive, it needs one of those 4 GMs, and if it wants to avoid being perpetually bad, it needs to avoid or quickly identify and move on from one of the truly bad GMs.

So would I extend KAM if I were the Vikings based on what I've seen? To be honest, I probably would not. I don't think KAM is going to take this team over the top because he just hasn't shown that ability to maximize positive outcomes either in the draft or in free agency. Like Rick Spielman before him, he deals in the realm of luck alone and the results he gets are subject to it's whims. That isn't going to produce a consistent winner in my view.

KOC I would extend. I think KOC will continue to evolve and grow as a coach and his leadership skills are evident. I think he's going to get the most out of JJ McCarthy going forward as well.

Always respect your views, but I think you’re being unfair.

You put the onus of the draft squarely on KAM. That’s fair. But then you take his stellar free agent record and attribute it to … luck?

Why couldn’t it be said that he was unlucky in the draft?

If you’re going to blame him for one area, then it’s only fair to credit him for the other.

Of course, none of this actually matters. They’re going to extend him. We all know it.

[IIsweet]

I feel that the draft scouts are brutal. Kwesi has his mind made up that he wants athletes and he looks at specific athletic skills testing that he believes in. Basically, give a coach a great athlete and trust that the coaching staff will develop him into greatness.
Unfortunately, his staff is giving him very similar grades for guys like Kyle Hamilton and Lewis Cine.
Now, Cine got hurt but that was a stretch to say the very least. There have been numerous times in the draft that Kwesi is getting too cute. Last year, Dallas Turner he moves up for. Love it, but traded away great draft picks in order to do so, which he got who he wanted, but we needed multiple people on the D side of the ball. Just signed Greenard and Van Ginkel.... so why trade away so many picks for Turner? Is he a generational player? 2 CB in particular in Quinyon Mitchell, Terrion Arnold, and not to mention later Cooper Dejean would have helped our secondary for years. C Graham Barton is an absolute road grader and elite center already for the TB Bucs. DT Brandon Fiske in the 2nd round was only a few picks ahead of where we would have been picking.
When looking back, last year was loaded with talent in the first couple rds. We got a franchise QB and then doubled down with a rookie to play behind our top 2 FA signings.

I am not impressed at all with their draft abilities. However, the rest of what they are doing appears to be outstanding but can still be improved, like adding club options to Darnold and D Jones signings. I see reports that KOC wants more personnel control. He should. I don't think he is too pleased with the building of the roster at the LOS.

[VikingLord]

Why couldn’t it be said that he was unlucky in the draft?

Because moving down from what, 12th to 30th to just swap second round picks is not a matter of bad luck. Not only didn't KAM get value in that trade, he left some really good players on the board for others. Kyle Hamilton comes immediately to mind.

If you’re going to blame him for one area, then it’s only fair to credit him for the other.

Is there an element of luck to drafting? Sure there is. Is it pure luck though? There are GMs that consistently draft well. There is an element of skill and hard work involved in good drafting. I'm just not sure KAM has put enough evidence of that on tape as it were to justify giving him a pass.

Of course, none of this actually matters. They’re going to extend him. We all know it.

Yup, agree with you, and that isn't the end of the world. KAM isn't one of the terrible 4 GM's of the "Football Franchise Apocalypse", so he's not going to ruin the team. I just don't know if he has what it takes to get them over the top, either.

Where is the Jim Finks of this generation? Is that KAM? I think we both agree it is not, but that is the type of GM a team needs if it's going to enjoy a long stretch of success.

[J. Kapp 11]

KOC got extended today. Terms not released.

No surprise whatsoever.

[CharVike]

KOC got extended today. Terms not released.

No surprise whatsoever.

No KAM?

[halfgiz]

Said the team is still in negotiations with KAM. But apparently want to get a deal done.