Vikings at Rams

[VikingLord]

Agreed. I think I said this in the chat room last night: we are who they thought we were.....last place in the NFC North.

We were 5-0 and I don't think anyone expected undefeated. The Rams aren't a joke team. They have talent. They got their WRs back and they are probably the best duo. They have the best defensive rookie. Verse is a force. Their OL is weaker from injuries but we didn't take advantage of that. Plus there HC has proven his ability. If we let the Colts beat us then it's game up. They have nothing on O and their QB is not accurate. That's a must win. If Darisaw is out that could make the game even. The Colts can play D at times.

The Rams just schemed out of the pressure. Stafford was getting the ball out short all night and apparently Flores doesn't have anyone cover the safety valve receiver because that player would be wide open and turn it upfield for big yardage after the catch all game. This is the same thing now over and over the last few games and Flores does nothing to adjust. I just wonder at what point he's going to tighten up the coverage across the board. He sends all this pressure and then makes it super easy to beat it. The answer to that seems obvious but no, every time it's just wing it out to the flat and get 5-10+ yards. And then in the situations where the QB has time to sit back the Vikings give up super easy downfield passes too while they sit in their completely ineffective zone.

I am beginning to really question whether Flores is a good DC. The lack of adjustments these last several games is stunning. The defense has gone from looking like one of the best in the NFL to one of the worst that fast.

[Tommy TarkenKapp]

We were 5-0 and I don't think anyone expected undefeated. The Rams aren't a joke team. They have talent. They got their WRs back and they are probably the best duo. They have the best defensive rookie. Verse is a force. Their OL is weaker from injuries but we didn't take advantage of that. Plus there HC has proven his ability. If we let the Colts beat us then it's game up. They have nothing on O and their QB is not accurate. That's a must win. If Darisaw is out that could make the game even. The Colts can play D at times.

I am beginning to really question whether Flores is a good DC. The lack of adjustments these last several games is stunning. The defense has gone from looking like one of the best in the NFL to one of the worst that fast.

It was pretty much the same deal with Flores' defense last year. Teams eventually realized they always had an outlet receiver all by his lonesome. A short, high percentage completion with guaranteed YAC.

[Cliff]

I am beginning to really question whether Flores is a good DC. The lack of adjustments these last several games is stunning. The defense has gone from looking like one of the best in the NFL to one of the worst that fast.

It was pretty much the same deal with Flores' defense last year. Teams eventually realized they always had an outlet receiver all by his lonesome. A short, high percentage completion with guaranteed YAC.

I'm only worried about the defense in that they can't stop killing themselves with penalties. They made what, 3 stops on 3rd downs that got canceled out? You really can't disregard how important that is. Those are 3 possessions that should have been for the Vikings offense that went back to the Ram's offense instead. That's a huge deal. No different than if 3 INTs were called back. Flores doesn't have much control over that.

As far as making adjustments, he did that in the Lions game. They had his number in the first half and he tightened things up in the second, it was just too late because the 1st half was such a beat down.

His scheme is honestly not much different than Zimmer's in my opinion and it has the same weaknesses. The biggest is how much it drains the players over the course of a game. It's all well and good to get players to the line and then drop them back in coverage but that takes it's toll. It's also weaker against the more experienced QBs. They aren't as easily fooled by that stuff. If the QB is really good at getting the ball out early and/or the D line can't get good pressure, it's not pretty. If you rush 5 or 6 and drop into a zone someone is going to be open if you can't rattle the QB.

[Tommy TarkenKapp]

It was pretty much the same deal with Flores' defense last year. Teams eventually realized they always had an outlet receiver all by his lonesome. A short, high percentage completion with guaranteed YAC.

I'm only worried about the defense in that they can't stop killing themselves with penalties. They made what, 3 stops on 3rd downs that got canceled out? You really can't disregard how important that is. Those are 3 possessions that should have been for the Vikings offense that went back to the Ram's offense instead. That's a huge deal. No different than if 3 INTs were called back. Flores doesn't have much control over that.

As far as making adjustments, he did that in the Lions game. They had his number in the first half and he tightened things up in the second, it was just too late because the 1st half was such a beat down.

His scheme is honestly not much different than Zimmer's in my opinion and it has the same weaknesses. The biggest is how much it drains the players over the course of a game. It's all well and good to get players to the line and then drop them back in coverage but that takes it's toll. It's also weaker against the more experienced QBs. They aren't as easily fooled by that stuff. If the QB is really good at getting the ball out early and/or the D line can't get good pressure, it's not pretty. If you rush 5 or 6 and drop into a zone someone is going to be open if you can't rattle the QB.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. Flores can only scheme so much. The lack of consistent playmakers on defense is the real issue.

[CharVike]

It was pretty much the same deal with Flores' defense last year. Teams eventually realized they always had an outlet receiver all by his lonesome. A short, high percentage completion with guaranteed YAC.

I'm only worried about the defense in that they can't stop killing themselves with penalties. They made what, 3 stops on 3rd downs that got canceled out? You really can't disregard how important that is. Those are 3 possessions that should have been for the Vikings offense that went back to the Ram's offense instead. That's a huge deal. No different than if 3 INTs were called back. Flores doesn't have much control over that.

As far as making adjustments, he did that in the Lions game. They had his number in the first half and he tightened things up in the second, it was just too late because the 1st half was such a beat down.

His scheme is honestly not much different than Zimmer's in my opinion and it has the same weaknesses. The biggest is how much it drains the players over the course of a game. It's all well and good to get players to the line and then drop them back in coverage but that takes it's toll. It's also weaker against the more experienced QBs. They aren't as easily fooled by that stuff. If the QB is really good at getting the ball out early and/or the D line can't get good pressure, it's not pretty. If you rush 5 or 6 and drop into a zone someone is going to be open if you can't rattle the QB.

I don't like the rushing and covering by a player. That's alot to ask. Greenard?? Said he blew the assignment when Gibbs caught the ball to setup the FG against the lions. It's hard to do one of those task well.
Linebacker Jonathan Greenard, for one, took responsibility for failing to cover Lions running back Jahmyr Gibbs on a wheel route with 1:25 remaining. Gibbs gained 16 yards on the play to put the Lions in position for their winning kick.

"I've got to make my reads and make my assignment," Greenard said. "[If I] take that back to the flat, they don't get that wheel route to Jahmyr and get in field goal range. Simple as that."
I like Greenard. He can get after the QB and Srafford made a nice play to avoid him and throw a TD.

[VikingLord]

I'm only worried about the defense in that they can't stop killing themselves with penalties. They made what, 3 stops on 3rd downs that got canceled out? You really can't disregard how important that is. Those are 3 possessions that should have been for the Vikings offense that went back to the Ram's offense instead. That's a huge deal. No different than if 3 INTs were called back. Flores doesn't have much control over that.

Totally agree and it is a real killer, although some of the calls were borderline IMHO, and especially so compared to some of the stuff that wasn't then called on the Rams.

The entire team has been really sloppy in terms of penalties the last two games. Not sure if that falls on the coaches or players (probably a combo of both), but as you pointed out those self-inflicted wounds have been significant.

As far as making adjustments, he did that in the Lions game. They had his number in the first half and he tightened things up in the second, it was just too late because the 1st half was such a beat down.

Why wait so long to make those adjustments, though? I mean, does Flores have to watch his defense get shredded on 3 straight drives to finally make adjustments?

What I don't understand is why he ever plays that soft zone, especially when he sends the blitz. If they don't get home, which they haven't been now 2 solid games, it's just way too easy for the opposing QB to find a guy. I realize playing tight man on blitzes carries risk, but it also does make it much more challenging for the opposing QB to play pitch-and-catch. He's got to deal with both the pressure from the blitz even if it doesn't get home while at the same time trying to figure out which route to throw at, which is never going to be obviously open since the DBs are tight man. If a DB loses his man and gets beat, so be it. At least it forces the opposing QB to take a chance and heck, he might even make a mistake or two.

His scheme is honestly not much different than Zimmer's in my opinion and it has the same weaknesses. The biggest is how much it drains the players over the course of a game. It's all well and good to get players to the line and then drop them back in coverage but that takes it's toll. It's also weaker against the more experienced QBs. They aren't as easily fooled by that stuff. If the QB is really good at getting the ball out early and/or the D line can't get good pressure, it's not pretty. If you rush 5 or 6 and drop into a zone someone is going to be open if you can't rattle the QB.

Well, the Lions went off in the 2nd quarter, so I'm not sure how drained the Vikings defensive players were at that point regardless of the scheme, at least if that's the explanation for the dropoff in their play.

Also, I think the failure of the Vikings offense to sustain drives is at least as significant a drain on the defense as the defensive scheme. When the offense keeps going backwards due to penalties and poor execution and can't get a first down for long stretches of games, any defense will wear down unless they can force the opposing offense off the field quickly, which the Vikings defense seems averse to do lately.

Bottom line for me is Flores is doing it with mostly smoke and mirrors. He likes to mask pressure, but when he sends it he relies on it getting home. When it doesn't, his soft shell zone gets picked apart fairly easily. He makes too many assumptions also about what will work and won't work and has the same tendency that a lot of coaches seem to have at the pro level where he trusts what he believes should be happening over what he sees actually happening. That, more than anything, is the reason for his failure to adjust. In that sense he is very much like Zimmer (and Childress, and countless others) was/is. He believes in the dogma of the scheme. The scheme doesn't fail - only the players fail to execute it properly, so if they just do a better job it will work. Only it doesn't work that way, and unless/until Flores accepts that, the defense is going to continue to go through long stretches where they get steamrolled.

I think if Flores wants to bring pressure, bring it. Bring the blitz. Bring the DBs up tight and get jams at the LOS. Make it hard for the opposing receivers to release and get into their routes. Make timing routes hard to execute. Swarm the LOS and take your chances. And then hope KOC and the offense can find a way to at least string together a few drives that last more than 30 seconds.

[cmoss84]

I had to shut the game off in the 2nd quarter after this (now I know why Giants fans hate the Dodgers so much!):

1) Up 14-7. Rams have a 3rd and medium...the ball gets batted down. Phantom holding call in the secondary. We lose all momentum from there.

2) 5 minute segment on Al Michael's favorite restaurant, while "I love LA" is playing.

3) Before commercial break, Al says "We LOVE LA!" ...then at last second...in a whisper...we love MN too.


I usually don't let this crap bother me, but it did for some reason. And I live near LA. Glad I didn't see the no call on Darnold getting his head ripped off in the 2nd half. I might have lost it. Even Pat McAfee ripped the refs for that one.

At any rate, time to regroup.

[VikingLord]

I usually don't let this crap bother me, but it did for some reason. And I live near LA. Glad I didn't see the no call on Darnold getting his head ripped off in the 2nd half. I might have lost it. Even Pat McAfee ripped the refs for that one.

Everyone ripped the refs for that one but what I don't get about it is why everyone seems to accept the referee's explanation for why no flag was thrown. There are multiple views of the play where Tra Blake, who was the referee on the play, was in clear position to see the facemask. The umpire might well have been blocked, but not Blake, who was just yards away from Darnold when it happened and who claims he didn't see it.

Why does this guy still have a job? I've watched a lot of football over the years, and I can't recall one time where such a blatant facemask was missed by a ref. After the snap Blake's sole job is to watch contact on the QB. That's all he's charged with doing.

He'll be just fine. When the NFL wants to make sure the Vikings lose another game, look for Blake to be there.

[Cliff]

Why wait so long to make those adjustments, though? I mean, does Flores have to watch his defense get shredded on 3 straight drives to finally make adjustments?

I don't know that he really waited very long to do so. It's just that by the time he figured out what adjustments to make 21 points were on the board.

What I don't understand is why he ever plays that soft zone, especially when he sends the blitz. If they don't get home, which they haven't been now 2 solid games, it's just way too easy for the opposing QB to find a guy. I realize playing tight man on blitzes carries risk, but it also does make it much more challenging for the opposing QB to play pitch-and-catch. He's got to deal with both the pressure from the blitz even if it doesn't get home while at the same time trying to figure out which route to throw at, which is never going to be obviously open since the DBs are tight man. If a DB loses his man and gets beat, so be it. At least it forces the opposing QB to take a chance and heck, he might even make a mistake or two.

I think it's because there aren't enough high quality players on the field to do anything else. Trying to stick man on man would probably leave more players completely wide open. The thought behind it is probably if the pressure doesn't get there at least there won't be a TD given up. In general that has worked, it only really didn't think game due to penalties. Some real, some imagined.

Well, the Lions went off in the 2nd quarter, so I'm not sure how drained the Vikings defensive players were at that point regardless of the scheme, at least if that's the explanation for the dropoff in their play.

That's true, and they did better in the second half as well. I don't think it explains everything but I think it explains why other than this game the defense comes out in the second half and isn't nearly as effective. Though I'm sure having that tough battle with Detroit and coming back out again so soon didn't help.

Also, I think the failure of the Vikings offense to sustain drives is at least as significant a drain on the defense as the defensive scheme. When the offense keeps going backwards due to penalties and poor execution and can't get a first down for long stretches of games, any defense will wear down unless they can force the opposing offense off the field quickly, which the Vikings defense seems averse to do lately.

Very true.

Bottom line for me is Flores is doing it with mostly smoke and mirrors. He likes to mask pressure, but when he sends it he relies on it getting home. When it doesn't, his soft shell zone gets picked apart fairly easily. He makes too many assumptions also about what will work and won't work and has the same tendency that a lot of coaches seem to have at the pro level where he trusts what he believes should be happening over what he sees actually happening. That, more than anything, is the reason for his failure to adjust. In that sense he is very much like Zimmer (and Childress, and countless others) was/is. He believes in the dogma of the scheme. The scheme doesn't fail - only the players fail to execute it properly, so if they just do a better job it will work. Only it doesn't work that way, and unless/until Flores accepts that, the defense is going to continue to go through long stretches where they get steamrolled.

I'm fine with the smoke and mirrors. Most defenses rely on getting home and his defense has done a good job getting there until the last two games. It has mostly worked unless the players fail. In this case, with committing penalties at the worst possible times.

I think if Flores wants to bring pressure, bring it. Bring the blitz. Bring the DBs up tight and get jams at the LOS. Make it hard for the opposing receivers to release and get into their routes. Make timing routes hard to execute. Swarm the LOS and take your chances. And then hope KOC and the offense can find a way to at least string together a few drives that last more than 30 seconds.

I think they'd get beat up even worse in this case. They don't have the talent at DB to make that kind of scheme work, I don't think.

[Cliff]

I'm only worried about the defense in that they can't stop killing themselves with penalties. They made what, 3 stops on 3rd downs that got canceled out? You really can't disregard how important that is. Those are 3 possessions that should have been for the Vikings offense that went back to the Ram's offense instead. That's a huge deal. No different than if 3 INTs were called back. Flores doesn't have much control over that.

As far as making adjustments, he did that in the Lions game. They had his number in the first half and he tightened things up in the second, it was just too late because the 1st half was such a beat down.

His scheme is honestly not much different than Zimmer's in my opinion and it has the same weaknesses. The biggest is how much it drains the players over the course of a game. It's all well and good to get players to the line and then drop them back in coverage but that takes it's toll. It's also weaker against the more experienced QBs. They aren't as easily fooled by that stuff. If the QB is really good at getting the ball out early and/or the D line can't get good pressure, it's not pretty. If you rush 5 or 6 and drop into a zone someone is going to be open if you can't rattle the QB.

I don't like the rushing and covering by a player. That's alot to ask. Greenard?? Said he blew the assignment when Gibbs caught the ball to setup the FG against the lions. It's hard to do one of those task well.
Linebacker Jonathan Greenard, for one, took responsibility for failing to cover Lions running back Jahmyr Gibbs on a wheel route with 1:25 remaining. Gibbs gained 16 yards on the play to put the Lions in position for their winning kick.

"I've got to make my reads and make my assignment," Greenard said. "[If I] take that back to the flat, they don't get that wheel route to Jahmyr and get in field goal range. Simple as that."
I like Greenard. He can get after the QB and Stafford made a nice play to avoid him and throw a TD.

I like it, honestly, I just think when it backfires it backfires hard. If the offense can't get them off the field they're worse off than most other defenses.

The highlighted part has a lot to do with it. Stafford seemed to know what was coming when. Got rid of the ball quickly when needed, changed to run when needed, held the ball for the deep throw when needed. Even more than the Ram's coaching staff Stafford seemed to have their number.

[Cliff]

I had to shut the game off in the 2nd quarter after this (now I know why Giants fans hate the Dodgers so much!):

1) Up 14-7. Rams have a 3rd and medium...the ball gets batted down. Phantom holding call in the secondary. We lose all momentum from there.

2) 5 minute segment on Al Michael's favorite restaurant, while "I love LA" is playing.

3) Before commercial break, Al says "We LOVE LA!" ...then at last second...in a whisper...we love MN too.


I usually don't let this crap bother me, but it did for some reason. And I live near LA. Glad I didn't see the no call on Darnold getting his head ripped off in the 2nd half. I might have lost it. Even Pat McAfee ripped the refs for that one.

At any rate, time to regroup.

I'm not a "blame the refs" kind of guy, but it's hard to overlook it in this game. The Vikings did commit their fair share, but they also had several that weren't actually there or at the least "ticky-tacky". Meanwhile it seemed like the Rams got away with holding every 3rd play. It was tough to watch.

I noticed the announcers too. They were definitely in love with LA lol

[CharVike]

I don't like the rushing and covering by a player. That's alot to ask. Greenard?? Said he blew the assignment when Gibbs caught the ball to setup the FG against the lions. It's hard to do one of those task well.
Linebacker Jonathan Greenard, for one, took responsibility for failing to cover Lions running back Jahmyr Gibbs on a wheel route with 1:25 remaining. Gibbs gained 16 yards on the play to put the Lions in position for their winning kick.

"I've got to make my reads and make my assignment," Greenard said. "[If I] take that back to the flat, they don't get that wheel route to Jahmyr and get in field goal range. Simple as that."
I like Greenard. He can get after the QB and Stafford made a nice play to avoid him and throw a TD.

I like it, honestly, I just think when it backfires it backfires hard. If the offense can't get them off the field they're worse off than most other defenses.

The highlighted part has a lot to do with it. Stafford seemed to know what was coming when. Got rid of the ball quickly when needed, changed to run when needed, held the ball for the deep throw when needed. Even more than the Ram's coaching staff Stafford seemed to have their number.

Stafford is a real good QB. When he gets rolling he's hard to stop. He'll usually make a few bad throws like the interception to Murphy. But he has proven he'll hang in the pocket and can deal with pressure. He's had an entire career of that.

[VikingLord]

I think it's because there aren't enough high quality players on the field to do anything else. Trying to stick man on man would probably leave more players completely wide open. The thought behind it is probably if the pressure doesn't get there at least there won't be a TD given up. In general that has worked, it only really didn't think game due to penalties. Some real, some imagined.

I can see the rationale behind bringing extra pressure against the QB while relaxing pressure against the receivers in order to minimize damage if the blitz is picked up. I just wonder if it makes sense to try to have it both ways because it doesn't seem to be working, at least as of late.

Also, is it just me or do the Vikings have like the WORST secondary in the league when it comes to zone coverage schemes? I mean, any time Flores rushes 3 and drops everyone back it seems like every receiver is left wide open. Not just open - wide open for easy throws short, middle or deep. I've never seen a shell zone so easy to pick apart. Maybe that goes to your not enough high quality players observation, because with so much experience in the secondary and at LB one would hope the defensive players the Vikings have at the 2nd and 3rd levels are aware that the point of their existence on the field is to actually prevent the other team's receivers from catching the ball at least some of the time.

I'm being very sarcastic with that comment (not directed towards you - definitely directed towards those Vikings defenders and their DC), but I guess what it comes down to for me is that Flores' scheme stinks when he plays soft at any level of the defense. Soft in the secondary means easy-peasy receptions, blitz or not. Soft at the LB means wide open outlets that can be turned upfield for big gainers. Soft on the DL means all day for the opposing QB to just chuck it wherever he wants.

I'd rather see Flores go all-out aggressive and tight and take his chances on giving up big plays than try to have his cake and eat it too and STILL give up big plays. If he's going to give them up anyway, may as well give them up with flare. And while it might be tempting to assume if he goes tight and stays aggressive that will inevitably happen, I think there is a very good chance the opposite of that might occur far more frequently, where the opposing QB is forced into bad decisions and throws and the guys at the 2nd and 3rd levels are actually in a position to make plays as a result.