Saints at Vikings

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CharVike
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by CharVike »

cogitator wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:47 pm I don't want to sound blasphemous, but I'm sure we've all noticed the Vikings have been on a winning streak since Jefferson got hurt. I'm starting to wonder if he would have more value being traded for a few draft picks than he does being re-signed to a gargantuan contract. I'm not suggesting the Vikings are better without him, but maybe the difference with him isn't great enough to warrant whatever size contract he'll get. He will be looking to be the highest paid receiver in the league no doubt.
The Chiefs traded Hill and they still won a Super Bowl without him. A team is beyond any one player. There are certain positions that are more important of course. Now if you can trade JJ for a Hershal Walker type of deal I would do it in a heartbeat. If we get offered a 7th rounder then no. JJ isn't going anywhere because he puts people in the seats. He's the face of the franchise. We did deal Moss.
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by cogitator »

CharVike wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:10 am
The Chiefs traded Hill and they still won a Super Bowl without him. A team is beyond any one player. There are certain positions that are more important of course. Now if you can trade JJ for a Hershal Walker type of deal I would do it in a heartbeat. If we get offered a 7th rounder then no. JJ isn't going anywhere because he puts people in the seats. He's the face of the franchise. We did deal Moss.
I was thinking of something like the Percy Harvin deal from a while ago, he brought in a first rounder and some other stray picks. I don't know how often that happens. It would have to be at least that to make it worth trading him. Not sure how badly a big contract to Jefferson would hamstring the organization from trying to keep other players, or bring in a few free agents. I suspect they re-sign him, just some idle speculation.
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:49 pm
TheCoolerOne wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:31 pm

That’s the thing though—you don’t know any of the context when you don’t watch the game. You’ve acknowledged you didn’t, then provide me a lesson on how the box score doesn’t tell the full story?
I get that if I had watched Dobbs play the Falcons game I would be more qualified to speak on his performance. However, my not having watched the game IMO doesn't 100% invalidate anything I have to say about his performance. I think Kapp is construing my saying he didn't play well to mean I'm saying he played poorly. I by no means am saying he played poorly. It just doesn't seem like he played well. I could be wrong. The box score certainly doesn't tell the whole story. It tells part of the story.
Dobbs certainly had some bad plays against the Falcons, especially at the start.

But no way the Vikings win that game without him playing amazing on the final drive. About the only thing I can fault him for on that drive is the pass he sailed over Powell's head on 3rd-and-7 that then led to Dobbs needing to literally step up big on 4th-and-7 to keep the drive alive, which he did with his legs and then a mic drop of the football.

The stats can't tell that story. They can't reflect how Dobbs was able to drive the team down the field late in the 4th and end up throwing the game winner. If he did that alone I would be singing his praises, but he did much more.

Give the guy his due - he more than earned it even if the raw stats from that game don't jump off the page.

And the video Kapp posted is well worth the look, and not just because it sings Dobbs' praises. The guy who did the analysis flat-out states how critical he was of Dobb's last performance as a Cardinal. He did not come into the analysis with any predisposition to praise Dobbs, and he analyses a lot of QB play. Well worth the watch if you have the time.

:govikes:
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

For the “there’s a reason Josh Dobbs has been on 5 teams in 11 months” crowd, this video makes some great points. And it asks the question, “Did the NFL get it wrong with Josh Dobbs?”

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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by makila »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:26 pm For the “there’s a reason Josh Dobbs has been on 5 teams in 11 months” crowd, this video makes some great points. And it asks the question, “Did the NFL get it wrong with Josh Dobbs?”

Is it possible they got it wrong? Absolutely. His point about viewing a player as a backup, and not "the guy", thus creating an unrecognized bias, is very valid imho. I hope they've got it wrong! Haha

Is it possible his issue isn't skill set, but consistency? I think it's possible, and not unlikely. I know Arizona is a very meh roster, however even you've acknowledged the video of where JT O'Sullivan rips Dobbs just three weeks ago. I think it's likely he has consistency issues. Most players that make it to the NFL (at any position) have the physical tools to play. It's why they are in the NFL. For the majority that are regular starters though, it's because they can consistently make the plays needed.

I think that this is probably the best opportunity he's had so far in his career. It's been two games. He's got the rest of the season, I expect, to prove himself. The second half against the Saints wasn't pretty, after a brilliant first half. Was it KOC? Was it Dobbs? Was it the Saints? I don't know, probably a bit of all factors. That's the consistency I'm referring to though.

He's played on 7 franchises (two twice). That's over 20% of nfl teams, it makes me pause. On the positive, it does mean teams keep acquiring him. Obviously I want to think the previous teams have got it wrong, and the ones on this list (Pitx2, Jax, Clex2, Det, Ten, Ari, and us) haven't screamed QB development and/or stability in recent years.
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:51 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:49 pm
I get that if I had watched Dobbs play the Falcons game I would be more qualified to speak on his performance. However, my not having watched the game IMO doesn't 100% invalidate anything I have to say about his performance. I think Kapp is construing my saying he didn't play well to mean I'm saying he played poorly. I by no means am saying he played poorly. It just doesn't seem like he played well. I could be wrong. The box score certainly doesn't tell the whole story. It tells part of the story.
Dobbs certainly had some bad plays against the Falcons, especially at the start.

But no way the Vikings win that game without him playing amazing on the final drive. About the only thing I can fault him for on that drive is the pass he sailed over Powell's head on 3rd-and-7 that then led to Dobbs needing to literally step up big on 4th-and-7 to keep the drive alive, which he did with his legs and then a mic drop of the football.

The stats can't tell that story. They can't reflect how Dobbs was able to drive the team down the field late in the 4th and end up throwing the game winner. If he did that alone I would be singing his praises, but he did much more.

Give the guy his due - he more than earned it even if the raw stats from that game don't jump off the page.

And the video Kapp posted is well worth the look, and not just because it sings Dobbs' praises. The guy who did the analysis flat-out states how critical he was of Dobb's last performance as a Cardinal. He did not come into the analysis with any predisposition to praise Dobbs, and he analyses a lot of QB play. Well worth the watch if you have the time.

:govikes:
I watched every last second of the video that Kapp posted. I saw some good, some bad and some ugly. He played well enough to get the win. I'm happy with that. As for his overall performance I was not very impressed. He played dramatically better the first half of the Saints Game before KOC did his usual IMO cowardly coaching.
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious »

makila wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:18 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:26 pm For the “there’s a reason Josh Dobbs has been on 5 teams in 11 months” crowd, this video makes some great points. And it asks the question, “Did the NFL get it wrong with Josh Dobbs?”

Is it possible they got it wrong? Absolutely. His point about viewing a player as a backup, and not "the guy", thus creating an unrecognized bias, is very valid imho. I hope they've got it wrong! Haha

Is it possible his issue isn't skill set, but consistency? I think it's possible, and not unlikely. I know Arizona is a very meh roster, however even you've acknowledged the video of where JT O'Sullivan rips Dobbs just three weeks ago. I think it's likely he has consistency issues. Most players that make it to the NFL (at any position) have the physical tools to play. It's why they are in the NFL. For the majority that are regular starters though, it's because they can consistently make the plays needed.

I think that this is probably the best opportunity he's had so far in his career. It's been two games. He's got the rest of the season, I expect, to prove himself. The second half against the Saints wasn't pretty, after a brilliant first half. Was it KOC? Was it Dobbs? Was it the Saints? I don't know, probably a bit of all factors. That's the consistency I'm referring to though.

He's played on 7 franchises (two twice). That's over 20% of nfl teams, it makes me pause. On the positive, it does mean teams keep acquiring him. Obviously I want to think the previous teams have got it wrong, and the ones on this list (Pitx2, Jax, Clex2, Det, Ten, Ari, and us) haven't screamed QB development and/or stability in recent years.
I put the second half at least 90% on KOC.
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by CharVike »

cogitator wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:50 pm
CharVike wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:10 am
The Chiefs traded Hill and they still won a Super Bowl without him. A team is beyond any one player. There are certain positions that are more important of course. Now if you can trade JJ for a Hershal Walker type of deal I would do it in a heartbeat. If we get offered a 7th rounder then no. JJ isn't going anywhere because he puts people in the seats. He's the face of the franchise. We did deal Moss.
I was thinking of something like the Percy Harvin deal from a while ago, he brought in a first rounder and some other stray picks. I don't know how often that happens. It would have to be at least that to make it worth trading him. Not sure how badly a big contract to Jefferson would hamstring the organization from trying to keep other players, or bring in a few free agents. I suspect they re-sign him, just some idle speculation.
Another thing to consider is Addison. If he becomes close to JJ level now you have 2 WR that will require big cap hits. They can definitely afford both but other players will need to go. That's a problem but it's a pleasant problem. That's why drafting well is so important.
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by CharVike »

makila wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:18 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:26 pm For the “there’s a reason Josh Dobbs has been on 5 teams in 11 months” crowd, this video makes some great points. And it asks the question, “Did the NFL get it wrong with Josh Dobbs?”

Is it possible they got it wrong? Absolutely. His point about viewing a player as a backup, and not "the guy", thus creating an unrecognized bias, is very valid imho. I hope they've got it wrong! Haha

Is it possible his issue isn't skill set, but consistency? I think it's possible, and not unlikely. I know Arizona is a very meh roster, however even you've acknowledged the video of where JT O'Sullivan rips Dobbs just three weeks ago. I think it's likely he has consistency issues. Most players that make it to the NFL (at any position) have the physical tools to play. It's why they are in the NFL. For the majority that are regular starters though, it's because they can consistently make the plays needed.

I think that this is probably the best opportunity he's had so far in his career. It's been two games. He's got the rest of the season, I expect, to prove himself. The second half against the Saints wasn't pretty, after a brilliant first half. Was it KOC? Was it Dobbs? Was it the Saints? I don't know, probably a bit of all factors. That's the consistency I'm referring to though.

He's played on 7 franchises (two twice). That's over 20% of nfl teams, it makes me pause. On the positive, it does mean teams keep acquiring him. Obviously I want to think the previous teams have got it wrong, and the ones on this list (Pitx2, Jax, Clex2, Det, Ten, Ari, and us) haven't screamed QB development and/or stability in recent years.
Consistency issues even popped up in the games he played with the Cards. This is just off the stat sheet and we all know a real in depth analysis takes much more work than looking at a stat sheet. For example one game he completed 47% and another 81%. He could be in a good situation at the right time now. Our team is playing better over the last 5 weeks than we have all year. I do feel that our coaching is much better from top to bottom than we have seen in a long time. Just the improvement from our OL shows that. He has already proven that he can come in and play good enough not to take us out of games. He hasn't thrown a pick with us. He has also shown he can make plays with his feet and hit the passes when they are there. That throw to Hoc down the middle for a TD was a great throw, catch and run. Week one Hoc probably can't make that play because of him missing camp.
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:53 am I watched every last second of the video that Kapp posted. I saw some good, some bad and some ugly. He played well enough to get the win. I'm happy with that. As for his overall performance I was not very impressed. He played dramatically better the first half of the Saints Game before KOC did his usual IMO cowardly coaching.
Fair enough. Dobbs definitely had his struggles in the Falcons game, and I tend to agree with you that KOC went conservative in the 2nd half against the Saints and didn't let Dobbs and the offense attack like they did in the first half. I wouldn't necessarily call it "cowardly" because of the lead they had at the time. I would call it pragmatic more than anything, but like you I hated it and I also think if KOC keeps doing that in the future it's going to burn him at some point.
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by VikingLord »

makila wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:18 pm He's played on 7 franchises (two twice). That's over 20% of nfl teams, it makes me pause. On the positive, it does mean teams keep acquiring him. Obviously I want to think the previous teams have got it wrong, and the ones on this list (Pitx2, Jax, Clex2, Det, Ten, Ari, and us) haven't screamed QB development and/or stability in recent years.
Dobbs could just be the next Case Keenum for this particular team. You put the right guy in the right situation at the right time and he and everyone else around him can become more than the sum of their individual parts, at least for some period of time. That can produce special seasons even if over time everyone reverts to the mean.

The biggest advantage Dobbs brings to an already talented offense is his mobility. He can scramble and buy time or get critical yards with his legs. He's bigger than he looks and is deceptively fast plus has really good balance and is hard to take down. With Cousins or Mullens, that factor doesn't exist to the same degree.

In some ways, the step back at QB when Cousins went down can become two steps forward with Dobbs if he continues to perform at this level the rest of the season. Getting JJ and Osborne back should just make things even better.
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Re: Saints at Vikings

Post by makila »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:34 pm
makila wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:18 pm He's played on 7 franchises (two twice). That's over 20% of nfl teams, it makes me pause. On the positive, it does mean teams keep acquiring him. Obviously I want to think the previous teams have got it wrong, and the ones on this list (Pitx2, Jax, Clex2, Det, Ten, Ari, and us) haven't screamed QB development and/or stability in recent years.
Dobbs could just be the next Case Keenum for this particular team. You put the right guy in the right situation at the right time and he and everyone else around him can become more than the sum of their individual parts, at least for some period of time. That can produce special seasons even if over time everyone reverts to the mean.

The biggest advantage Dobbs brings to an already talented offense is his mobility. He can scramble and buy time or get critical yards with his legs. He's bigger than he looks and is deceptively fast plus has really good balance and is hard to take down. With Cousins or Mullens, that factor doesn't exist to the same degree.

In some ways, the step back at QB when Cousins went down can become two steps forward with Dobbs if he continues to perform at this level the rest of the season. Getting JJ and Osborne back should just make things even better.
Agree on your premises of right people, right time, right system. The old greek quote...luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

He could be this seasons Case for the team, absolutely hope he is. Case also was never able to replicate that season.
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