Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by CharVike »

Pep2Moss wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:51 pm No idea why Dalton Risner isn't signed yet. Ingram needs to sit.

Philly game has a chance to be brutal. Running game seems pretty pedestrian...Captain Kirk is becoming Captain Checkdown. I don't get it. Don't get how you let JJ get taken out of the game. Throw it close to him.

Kirk had some bad reads. You cant go KJ when he's double covered. Amazing how the offense becomes so non existant.
The short throws killed us. We were striking early with longer passes to all the receivers. KJ seemed to become the go to guy. He's fine with a play here and there. When JJ is rolling keep feeding him.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by Texas Vike »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 12:16 pm It's hard for me to fault any individual player on the defensive line, just as it's hard for me to fault Mattison for the lack of production in the run game. The individual player(s) usually exert max effort and the same is true for Phillips on the defensive line. It's just the Vikings defense seems built for small ball. The LBs are fast but smallish. The defensive ends/outside LBs are explosive but not particularly stout. The team desperately needed an inside presence that can anchor the interior of the line and eat up blockers. Tomlinson wasn't the best at that but he was better than anyone they have now.

What I don't understand is why KAM didn't attempt to replace that presence in the middle of the DL. He had opportunities to do that in the draft two years running and passed both times. He could have done it in FA. And yet here we are with not only the same issue as last year, but the issue is worse now. I kept saying the Vikings defense couldn't possibly be worse than last year, but after watching the Buc offense pound them up the middle in the 2nd half yesterday, I may have to take that back. Most teams can field a running game equal to what the Bucs brought yesterday.
Wish we could have a proper chat over a brewski or something... bc trying to discuss each point gets clumsy with the quote function, LOL... so I'll just limit myself to this topic, despite a desire to talk about them all.

I agree with you here. Harrison played well, but that does not attenuate the fact that Kwesi has chosen to not improve our beef on the DL in the past two drafts. I think about the teams that are built to actually make a superbowl run in the NFC (Dallas, Philly, SF, and as much as it pains me Detroit) and what they all have in common is some serious talent on both OL and DL. These teams are not built like the Chiefs. They aren't doing it with a savior QB. They're do it as a team. They're solid in the trenches and at skill positions. With the potential exception of Hurts, none of them have world beaters at QB.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by StanM »

Texas Vike wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:03 pm
VikingLord wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 12:16 pm It's hard for me to fault any individual player on the defensive line, just as it's hard for me to fault Mattison for the lack of production in the run game. The individual player(s) usually exert max effort and the same is true for Phillips on the defensive line. It's just the Vikings defense seems built for small ball. The LBs are fast but smallish. The defensive ends/outside LBs are explosive but not particularly stout. The team desperately needed an inside presence that can anchor the interior of the line and eat up blockers. Tomlinson wasn't the best at that but he was better than anyone they have now.

What I don't understand is why KAM didn't attempt to replace that presence in the middle of the DL. He had opportunities to do that in the draft two years running and passed both times. He could have done it in FA. And yet here we are with not only the same issue as last year, but the issue is worse now. I kept saying the Vikings defense couldn't possibly be worse than last year, but after watching the Buc offense pound them up the middle in the 2nd half yesterday, I may have to take that back. Most teams can field a running game equal to what the Bucs brought yesterday.
Wish we could have a proper chat over a brewski or something... bc trying to discuss each point gets clumsy with the quote function, LOL... so I'll just limit myself to this topic, despite a desire to talk about them all.

I agree with you here. Harrison played well, but that does not attenuate the fact that Kwesi has chosen to not improve our beef on the DL in the past two drafts. I think about the teams that are built to actually make a superbowl run in the NFC (Dallas, Philly, SF, and as much as it pains me Detroit) and what they all have in common is some serious talent on both OL and DL. These teams are not built like the Chiefs. They aren't doing it with a savior QB. They're do it as a team. They're solid in the trenches and at skill positions. With the potential exception of Hurts, none of them have world beaters at QB.
Our roster was a hot mess of bloated veterans contracts and weak position groups when they were hired. It was always going to take several years to work through everything and get some cap space to make those kinds of moves. It’s easy for me as a fan to blast KOC and KAM now when their work is partially done. They somehow got lucky last year and won a bunch of close games but some of those wins can best be described as miracles.

I think we may be facing a reality check on exactly where we’re at after the illusion of 12-4 raised expectations. Free agent OL are wanting to get paid just like talented players at every other position. My expectations aren’t very high this year but they’ll be in a prove it to the fans situation next year.

I got a different feeling from Kirk on Sunday after watching him. I’d like to see a mobile fast decision maker run our team for a couple games in order to compare to Kirk. I think Kirk is a good qb but he reminds me of watching Johnny Unitas when I was a kid. Straight drop back, needed some hogs on the line and he could pick teams apart. Kirk would fit right into that 50’s and 60’s style but the game has changed and I think some mobility at qb would make our line look much better.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

Reguardless of who is QB, we need some beefy guards, that excel at pass protection. We need them now, while we have Darrisaw and O'Neil. Only reason I didnt like giving TJ all that money is there is none left for guards and a center since Bradbury is always hurt.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by CharVike »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:11 pm Reguardless of who is QB, we need some beefy guards, that excel at pass protection. We need them now, while we have Darrisaw and O'Neil. Only reason I didnt like giving TJ all that money is there is none left for guards and a center since Bradbury is always hurt.
Many QBs have been ruined by bad OL play. Next year is year 3 of this remix. If the same 3 IOL are still there then it's a failure. As you posted year 1 draft looks like a bust. Many trades with little return.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by VikingLord »

StanM wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:18 pm I got a different feeling from Kirk on Sunday after watching him. I’d like to see a mobile fast decision maker run our team for a couple games in order to compare to Kirk. I think Kirk is a good qb but he reminds me of watching Johnny Unitas when I was a kid. Straight drop back, needed some hogs on the line and he could pick teams apart. Kirk would fit right into that 50’s and 60’s style but the game has changed and I think some mobility at qb would make our line look much better.
It's interesting to think back on the QBs that led the Vikings to measurable post-season success over their history. Joe Kapp got them to a Superbowl. Tarkenton took them to three more. Then there was Wade Wilson in 1987 who got them close, following by Randall Cunningham who was laying tile and presumed to be washed up. Culpepper took them to some success early in his career. Then there was also a washed up, but amped up, Favre, followed by a 3rd-string journeyman in Case Keenum. I can't honestly say looking at those guys that the secret sauce has been an amazing franchise QB. Granted, nobody has won a Superbowl yet with the Vikings at QB. Tarkenton had the most consistent success by far, and he was also about as close to the Superhero QB that any of those Vikings teams that got to or made it close to the Superbowl have had. Favre would be a close 2nd in 2009. The rest, not even close.

I will say one thing about pretty much every one of the QBs who took the Vikings close to Valhalla over the years - all of them took some chances. All of them were willing to wing the unlikely pass or go off script. And to be fair to Cousins, at times last year I thought he was finally showing some of that same moxie. He made some amazing throws and plays as that season wore on and was a big reason why the Vikings won many of those close games. He just didn't do it when it mattered the most...
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:46 pm
StanM wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:18 pm I got a different feeling from Kirk on Sunday after watching him. I’d like to see a mobile fast decision maker run our team for a couple games in order to compare to Kirk. I think Kirk is a good qb but he reminds me of watching Johnny Unitas when I was a kid. Straight drop back, needed some hogs on the line and he could pick teams apart. Kirk would fit right into that 50’s and 60’s style but the game has changed and I think some mobility at qb would make our line look much better.
It's interesting to think back on the QBs that led the Vikings to measurable post-season success over their history. Joe Kapp got them to a Superbowl. Tarkenton took them to three more. Then there was Wade Wilson in 1987 who got them close, following by Randall Cunningham who was laying tile and presumed to be washed up. Culpepper took them to some success early in his career. Then there was also a washed up, but amped up, Favre, followed by a 3rd-string journeyman in Case Keenum. I can't honestly say looking at those guys that the secret sauce has been an amazing franchise QB. Granted, nobody has won a Superbowl yet with the Vikings at QB. Tarkenton had the most consistent success by far, and he was also about as close to the Superhero QB that any of those Vikings teams that got to or made it close to the Superbowl have had. Favre would be a close 2nd in 2009. The rest, not even close.

I will say one thing about pretty much every one of the QBs who took the Vikings close to Valhalla over the years - all of them took some chances. All of them were willing to wing the unlikely pass or go off script. And to be fair to Cousins, at times last year I thought he was finally showing some of that same moxie. He made some amazing throws and plays as that season wore on and was a big reason why the Vikings won many of those close games. He just didn't do it when it mattered the most...
For some reason Cousins seems to get more hate from Viking fans and the media than any player I have ever seen play for us. We all have opinions and I see him as being behind Tark in our history. For the last decade the media has been stating you will never make a SB with out a mobile QB. I'm like what? Foles, Stafford, Burrow, Jimmy G, Goff just off the top of my head. Last year was a very entertaining season. That team went beyond Cousins. They all played hard and tried to win from beginning to end of games. Our D for how bad it was got key turnovers like against the Bills. That was a team that played as a team. It was good to see. This past game we fell apart as a team. Our O didn't do much after half time and the D fell apart. Was that caused by half time adjustments? I don't know. Cousins hitting some big throws early in the game was entertaining. Our weapons were fired up. They were all pi$$ed off half 2. Something happened. Coaching? That -4 yard screen was sh$it. Why not attack. Try to win.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:18 pm
CharVike wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:16 pm That was a tough loss. Bad decision by Cousins on that interception. Looked like the throw was late. That play seemed to turn the momentum. Our IOL was bad again. Ingram should be benched but that won't happen because of the draft slot and nothing behind him. That was a nice route by Addison on the TD. He broke free easily and has soft hands. He's a smooth player. I don't understand why JJ didn't get much the 2nd half. TJ made some plays when he ran a route. That screen was over before it began. I guess Ezra whiffed on his block. Oliver got downfield for a nice one. I don't understand a wide open gap for Winfield to run through for an easy sack/strip. How is there a hole in Ingram's spot at the LOS. That was too easy for them. We couldn't get a turnover which hurt. We couldn't run the ball after some early success. Basically nothing. That never helps and shows the dominance at the point. Cousins took many hits again. He better get the vest on because it won't be an easy go on Thursday. At least we played the Eagles last year which will help the familiarity aspect but the execution in the pits will tell the story.
I really like Addisons play as well. I wish he would have been targeted more. And theres no excuse for our IOL failing completely. KOC and KAM Fed up not fixing it this offseason, saying they were happy with who we had here. I didnt see much of our LBs flying around the field. Old man Hicks was trying, Mettelous the safety was trying too but could only manage to takle after they caught or ran the ball. Asamouh is looking like a complete BUST as is Cine. Mattison and Ty had no holes open for them either.

Its going to be a long season fella's.
I wish Addison would’ve been ON THE FIELD more.

As promised, the Vikings ran a ton of 12 personnel, with Osborn as WR2. They also ran several plays with 3 TEs, and not in short yardage situations. It’s like KOC was hell-bent on running heavy personnel that he left his second-best player on the bench.

Also, why is KJ Osborn the WR2.

Look, I love the guy. Rags to riches story. Stand-up guy. Pulled a man from a burning car, for crying out loud. But he is NOT the second-best WR on this team. Jordan Addison is, and it’s not close. The Vikings are playing Osborn as the WR2 because he can run block, and KOC is “by god gonna run the ball” (insert best Wilford Brimley imitation). Our seats are in the end zone, 40th row. Perfect all-22 view. I watched Addison running routes. He’s so good. He gets separation easily, something Osborn struggles to do. He’s smooth. He’s shifty enough to break press coverage, even though he’s small. He catches the ball naturally. He’s REALLY good.

I get the desire to run the ball. I get the desire to play both Oliver and Hockenson. But does one wide receiver’s ability to block warrant him being on the field over another wide receiver’s ability to make big plays?

Hopefully this ends up being like Jefferson 3 years ago and the Vikings quickly realize they’ve got a special player sitting behind an average player.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by Pep2Moss »

Osborn is not a great route runner and has zero seperation. Now on the int, he led KJ into the other defender. KJ prob should have stopped, but KJ didn't Can't have those mistakes

Also, I knew to not get too excited, because you can't win with that interior OL. You just can't.

Risner should be here. A new RG should have been here as well. I would have replaced Bradbury as well.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by CharVike »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 7:51 am
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:18 pm

I really like Addisons play as well. I wish he would have been targeted more. And theres no excuse for our IOL failing completely. KOC and KAM Fed up not fixing it this offseason, saying they were happy with who we had here. I didnt see much of our LBs flying around the field. Old man Hicks was trying, Mettelous the safety was trying too but could only manage to takle after they caught or ran the ball. Asamouh is looking like a complete BUST as is Cine. Mattison and Ty had no holes open for them either.

Its going to be a long season fella's.
I wish Addison would’ve been ON THE FIELD more.

As promised, the Vikings ran a ton of 12 personnel, with Osborn as WR2. They also ran several plays with 3 TEs, and not in short yardage situations. It’s like KOC was hell-bent on running heavy personnel that he left his second-best player on the bench.

Also, why is KJ Osborn the WR2.

Look, I love the guy. Rags to riches story. Stand-up guy. Pulled a man from a burning car, for crying out loud. But he is NOT the second-best WR on this team. Jordan Addison is, and it’s not close. The Vikings are playing Osborn as the WR2 because he can run block, and KOC is “by god gonna run the ball” (insert best Wilford Brimley imitation). Our seats are in the end zone, 40th row. Perfect all-22 view. I watched Addison running routes. He’s so good. He gets separation easily, something Osborn struggles to do. He’s smooth. He’s shifty enough to break press coverage, even though he’s small. He catches the ball naturally. He’s REALLY good.

I get the desire to run the ball. I get the desire to play both Oliver and Hockenson. But does one wide receiver’s ability to block warrant him being on the field over another wide receiver’s ability to make big plays?

Hopefully this ends up being like Jefferson 3 years ago and the Vikings quickly realize they’ve got a special player sitting behind an average player.
Our RBs had a grand total of 14 carries. That's not trying to run the ball. I understand taking it easy with Addison it was his first real NFL game plus getting other players some touches is fine. This game the ground game wasn't working and it had no chance with so few carries. We let them hang around and play there brand of football. That put us into a make no mistake situation. Your asking to get beat.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 11:00 am Our RBs had a grand total of 14 carries. That's not trying to run the ball. I understand taking it easy with Addison it was his first real NFL game plus getting other players some touches is fine. This game the ground game wasn't working and it had no chance with so few carries. We let them hang around and play there brand of football. That put us into a make no mistake situation. Your asking to get beat.
KOC can certainly try to force the run, but the real problem isn't the number of runs, but rather:

- Weak run blocking interior OL
- Run play design is pretty predictable IMHO and seems intent on running behind the interior OL weakness
- Runners are not great run-after-contact backs. You can build a respected run attack with guys like AP or Cook who can turn nothing into a big gain, but not with guys like Mattison who lack the special attributes that enable that kind of rushing attack.

Offensive success this year will come because of the passing game succeeding with runs sprinkled in to keep defenses honest. Vikings offense also needs to cut way back on the mental errors and turnovers. This is a "low margin-for-error" offense. Skilled, but somewhat one-dimensional and with well understood weaknesses that every DC it faces will try to exploit. They have to keep JJ involved. I agree with Kapp that Addison needs to be on the field even if that means Osborn sits. Find ways to keep Kirk vertical, be that with rollouts, play action, whatever. Get the ball down the field and use that success to back defenses off a bit and then KOC can pound it all he wants up the middle for little or no gains.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

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VikingLord wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:23 pm
CharVike wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 11:00 am Our RBs had a grand total of 14 carries. That's not trying to run the ball. I understand taking it easy with Addison it was his first real NFL game plus getting other players some touches is fine. This game the ground game wasn't working and it had no chance with so few carries. We let them hang around and play there brand of football. That put us into a make no mistake situation. Your asking to get beat.
KOC can certainly try to force the run, but the real problem isn't the number of runs, but rather:

- Weak run blocking interior OL
- Run play design is pretty predictable IMHO and seems intent on running behind the interior OL weakness
- Runners are not great run-after-contact backs. You can build a respected run attack with guys like AP or Cook who can turn nothing into a big gain, but not with guys like Mattison who lack the special attributes that enable that kind of rushing attack.

Offensive success this year will come because of the passing game succeeding with runs sprinkled in to keep defenses honest. Vikings offense also needs to cut way back on the mental errors and turnovers. This is a "low margin-for-error" offense. Skilled, but somewhat one-dimensional and with well understood weaknesses that every DC it faces will try to exploit. They have to keep JJ involved. I agree with Kapp that Addison needs to be on the field even if that means Osborn sits. Find ways to keep Kirk vertical, be that with rollouts, play action, whatever. Get the ball down the field and use that success to back defenses off a bit and then KOC can pound it all he wants up the middle for little or no gains.
Run play design is brutal. When was the last time we ran off tackle. Something different. Anything different. We run into our weakest spot. I said rest Addison because he is 170 and I doubt he is at NFL strength. He reminds me of A Carter. The deep one to Addison was off a short roll. Ingram is embarrassing. You can't even roll towards him. The guy looks ackward. Like he never played guard.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by Cliff »

Game planning and calling had little to do with the loss in my view. Fundamental problems and plain old bad luck. Botched snap for a fumble, another fumble, an INT ripped out of a receivers hands, and an offsides that was as good as a turnover. 0/4 turnover ratio is a loss 99 times out of 100.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Here is a WILD development that probably contributed to the Viking defense’s inability to get off the field in the second half.
[Rachaad] White, who was interviewed by the Buccaneers Radio Network on Monday, was asked what sparked the offense after a rough start to the game. White credited Mayfield, who figured out Minnesota’s defensive signals in-game.

“I just remember Bake came in the locker room literally at halftime and said, ‘I got it. We got all these signals,’” White began. “We’re in there talking as an offense and he’s like, ‘I know all these signals. If they do this, they’re going into Cover-2. If they do this, they’re going into Cover-3. Every time I alert this and they do this signal, they’re dropping back to this.’ And I’m like, ‘Wow, that’s amazing.’ … I was just listening to him and we were listening to him and we just kind of understood.”
That’s something the Vikings HAVE to fix. The players on the field were giving a lot of hand signals throughout the game. You can’t let the opposition steal your signs.
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Re: Bucs at Vikings Pre-Game

Post by allday1991 »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:40 am Here is a WILD development that probably contributed to the Viking defense’s inability to get off the field in the second half.
[Rachaad] White, who was interviewed by the Buccaneers Radio Network on Monday, was asked what sparked the offense after a rough start to the game. White credited Mayfield, who figured out Minnesota’s defensive signals in-game.

“I just remember Bake came in the locker room literally at halftime and said, ‘I got it. We got all these signals,’” White began. “We’re in there talking as an offense and he’s like, ‘I know all these signals. If they do this, they’re going into Cover-2. If they do this, they’re going into Cover-3. Every time I alert this and they do this signal, they’re dropping back to this.’ And I’m like, ‘Wow, that’s amazing.’ … I was just listening to him and we were listening to him and we just kind of understood.”
That’s something the Vikings HAVE to fix. The players on the field were giving a lot of hand signals throughout the game. You can’t let the opposition steal your signs.

Sure is an easy fix, if true kind of concerned coaches or players didn’t catch on. You could easily have two different calls for 1st and 2nd half. Or if you think they completely locked in bump the rotation by one. If you have 5 signals cover 1 is rock, cover 2 is paper cover 3 is scissors, now cover 2 is rock, cover 3 is paper and cover 1 is scissors etc. Also mayfield isn’t some football wiz, if he figured out calls out that quick that vast majority of QBs will.
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