The Hockenson Contract Situation

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VikingsVictorious
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The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Rumors are floating that Hock is basically holding in seeking a contract extension. A hold in is where you show up for camp, but constantly have a health condition that makes it so you don't play. If that is what he is doing it makes him a POS in my book. Rumors have it that he is seeking a contract equal to or greater than Darren Waller's $17M a year. Waller has been producing much better numbers than Hock for years.
In contract negotiations the Vikings hold the cards. They can choose to not extend Hock this year and then Franchise him for $12M next year and I'm not sure how much the year after. That's the next 3 years and after that Hock's performance is likely to decline. If the Vikings are offering 3 or 4 years starting at $13.5M IMO that is reasonable.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 12:04 pm Rumors are floating that Hock is basically holding in seeking a contract extension. A hold in is where you show up for camp, but constantly have a health condition that makes it so you don't play. If that is what he is doing it makes him a POS in my book. Rumors have it that he is seeking a contract equal to or greater than Darren Waller's $17M a year. Waller has been producing much better numbers than Hock for years.
In contract negotiations the Vikings hold the cards. They can choose to not extend Hock this year and then Franchise him for $12M next year and I'm not sure how much the year after. That's the next 3 years and after that Hock's performance is likely to decline. If the Vikings are offering 3 or 4 years starting at $13.5M IMO that is reasonable.
Just don’t understand a guy who’s played 1 full season, never had over 1k yards and 6tds as a career high expecting to rewrite market. Sure he’s on the higher end of TEs but there’s a clear gap between the Kelce, kittle and wallers of the world. Kind of sucks we gave up a 2nd for him and he does help the offence but not worth 17-18m a year. With guys we need to sign still on the plate like Darrisaw and jj I wouldn’t hesitate to skip hock if he isn’t going to take a reasonable salary.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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I really hope that he not faking injury to avoid fines while he wants to renegotiate his contract, doesn't seem like that would be his style.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by Cliff »

Think we're finding out why Deteoit took a 2nd. They knew how much he'd want. 2nd isn't gonna look good if he's a 1.5 year rental.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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No way I'd give him anywhere close to elite TE money. I hope they trade him.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Funny, but I didn’t see many of you wannabe GMs making these comments when Hockenson was making 9 catches exactly 4 days after the Vikings acquired him. Or when he was making ridiculous TD catches in the whiteout game against the Giants.

This is simply how it works in today’s NFL. Three years ago, Kelce got the bag. Two years ago, it was Kittle. Last year Waller. The highest salary rarely goes to the best player. It goes to the latest player. JJ is going to become the highest-paid receiver at some point. How long do you think he’ll be highest paid? When somebody passes him, will that mean JJ is no longer the best?

I’d rather have The Hock than not have him. Hopefully they can get a deal done that doesn’t crush the team’s salary cap.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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Cliff wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:33 pm Think we're finding out why Deteoit took a 2nd. They knew how much he'd want. 2nd isn't gonna look good if he's a 1.5 year rental.
IIRC we got back an earlier third round pick than the second we sent. I seem to recall that overall pick value based on what we sent out and got back was more like a 4th or 5th round pick.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:21 pm Funny, but I didn’t see many of you wannabe GMs making these comments when Hockenson was making 9 catches exactly 4 days after the Vikings acquired him. Or when he was making ridiculous TD catches in the whiteout game against the Giants.

This is simply how it works in today’s NFL. Three years ago, Kelce got the bag. Two years ago, it was Kittle. Last year Waller. The highest salary rarely goes to the best player. It goes to the latest player. JJ is going to become the highest-paid receiver at some point. How long do you think he’ll be highest paid? When somebody passes him, will that mean JJ is no longer the best?

I’d rather have The Hock than not have him. Hopefully they can get a deal done that doesn’t crush the team’s salary cap.
You make a good point in the bolded above, but IMO Hock should not get the biggest contract regardless of being the latest.

On the other web site I frequent one of our posters pointed out that Hock averaged 15.2 YPC with the Lions last year, but only 8 something with the Vikings. He was a total check down target. He did it well, but the value to all his catches was diminished. He was below average on YPC and below average on Yards per target. I'd like to keep him, but Spotrac has some formula to determine appropriate pay and they have Hock at 14.4. Considering our bargaining position that's still more than I would be happy with. How does it affect our signing Darrisaw, Jefferson and O'Niell in the near future? We have three TEs of NFL quality on the roster without Hock. The best move may be trading him.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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Hock is not a great TE. He is a very average blocker maybe even below average and an above average pass catcher (not great). Waller is much more talented than Hock. So is Kelce. Not the same ballpark. If they pay him big they'll regret it. The argument that people liking the trade at the time should correlate with them wanting to invest a ton of cap space in him is fallacious. It was a good trade until we learned what his contract demands turned out to be. It would be a bad contract. I'd rather take a 3rd round compensatory pick and save the cap space.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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Maelstrom88 wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 2:35 am Hock is not a great TE. He is a very average blocker maybe even below average and an above average pass catcher (not great). Waller is much more talented than Hock. So is Kelce. Not the same ballpark. If they pay him big they'll regret it. The argument that people liking the trade at the time should correlate with them wanting to invest a ton of cap space in him is fallacious. It was a good trade until we learned what his contract demands turned out to be. It would be a bad contract. I'd rather take a 3rd round compensatory pick and save the cap space.
We don't need to trade or release him if we aren't willing to meet his contract demands. He's already under contract this year and we can franchise him for a reasonable price the next two seasons.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by makila »

Current contract total dollar per year needs to be viewed through the lens as a percentage of the salary cap when they signed. The cap increases year over year. Generally positional values increase year over year, rb being an example right now of it not. So it's best to view the other te salaries as a percent of the cap when the deal was signed. The total that someone signed for three years ago isn't fully relevant. The cap was lower three years ago.

However, imho, to reset a market you need to be elite. And you need to have at least one year where you were the best in the league at something.

Hock hasn't been clearly the #1 te in the league for a full year. He is a very good route runner with good hands (he has had drops, that's not unheard of for tes though). He is a below average blocker. He isn't a yac guy.

They signed Oliver for reason right out of the gate this off season. Yes a large part of that is personal groups koc can use now, it also was insurance imo.

All that said I am hesitant to reset the market with Hocks contract when we know jj and darrisaw both will be too. Pay him top three money. 15m a yr type. I'd rather have him on the roster the rest of his 20s, as we will be pass driven offense with koc.

And yeah, the team does have the leverage here. As long as they lock up the other ones. Can't franchise tag them all.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by Cliff »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:44 pm
Cliff wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:33 pm Think we're finding out why Deteoit took a 2nd. They knew how much he'd want. 2nd isn't gonna look good if he's a 1.5 year rental.
IIRC we got back an earlier third round pick than the second we sent. I seem to recall that overall pick value based on what we sent out and got back was more like a 4th or 5th round pick.
Sent a 2023 2nd rounder and a 2024 3rd rounder. Vikings got Hockenson and a 2024 conditional 4th rounder.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:21 pm Funny, but I didn’t see many of you wannabe GMs making these comments when Hockenson was making 9 catches exactly 4 days after the Vikings acquired him. Or when he was making ridiculous TD catches in the whiteout game against the Giants.

This is simply how it works in today’s NFL. Three years ago, Kelce got the bag. Two years ago, it was Kittle. Last year Waller. The highest salary rarely goes to the best player. It goes to the latest player. JJ is going to become the highest-paid receiver at some point. How long do you think he’ll be highest paid? When somebody passes him, will that mean JJ is no longer the best?

I’d rather have The Hock than not have him. Hopefully they can get a deal done that doesn’t crush the team’s salary cap.
I definitely want him on the team. The receiving group is going to be seriously dangerous and he's part of the equation. That said, I think Detroit started contract extension talks and knew they wouldn't want to pay what he wanted. Instead they got what they could get trade-wise. I'm hoping him and the Vikings can reach terms, but if they can't and he walks after next season Detroit will have definitely got the better end of that deal.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

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Cliff wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:59 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:44 pm
IIRC we got back an earlier third round pick than the second we sent. I seem to recall that overall pick value based on what we sent out and got back was more like a 4th or 5th round pick.
Sent a 2023 2nd rounder and a 2024 3rd rounder. Vikings got Hockenson and a 2024 conditional 4th rounder.
I'll believe you, but it just seems wrong from my recollection. I'm probably mixing up his deal with somebody else's. It sounds like we effectively sent a high 2nd. We desperately needed him at the time and he played very well for us. However, what we paid in trade capital should not effect his contract negotiations.
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Re: The Hockenson Contract Situation

Post by Cliff »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:58 am
Cliff wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:59 am

Sent a 2023 2nd rounder and a 2024 3rd rounder. Vikings got Hockenson and a 2024 conditional 4th rounder.
I'll believe you, but it just seems wrong from my recollection. I'm probably mixing up his deal with somebody else's. It sounds like we effectively sent a high 2nd. We desperately needed him at the time and he played very well for us. However, what we paid in trade capital should not effect his contract negotiations.
I couldn't remember so I had to look it up.

Link here.
The deal involved Minnesota sending a 2023 second-round pick and 2024 third-round pick to Detroit to land the No. 8 overall pick of the 2019 NFL Draft, as well as a fourth-round pick in 2023 and a conditional pick in 2024.

The agreement was executed hours before the 2022 NFL trade deadline of 3 p.m. (CT) Tuesday.
Like I said, I want him on the team and hope they can work out a deal. The team has basically gone all in on offense. High draft picks across the offensive line (three 2nds and two 1sts), high draft picks at receiver, 20% of the cap on the QB, and the draft capital given up for Hockenson. Can't pull the chips back now, he really needs to be there especially now that Cook is gone. To have that much invested in offense, we don't want to lose any more weapons.