Flores is our new DC

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IIsweet
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by IIsweet »

This is a very exciting hire to me. I love an aggressive coach. This defense will be fun to watch, I hope!! With this hire and the type of defense that Flores wants to run.
I also expect a couple new CB draft picks. It is loaded with tall and athletic players. I also expect to see athletic DT drafted.
A couple of names include DT Mazi Smith of Michigan, CB Joey Porter Jr, Christian Gonzalez, Kelee Ringo, Eli Ricks, Jaylon Jones, Tyrique Stevenson, Riley Moss, Deonte Banks, Julius Brents. These are some CBs that I would love to have. All are 6'1 or taller and 4.3 - 4.4 guys. Brents is 6'4 and the slowest but absolutely shut down WRs at the Sr bowl.
I can see Kwesi loving the aggressiveness of Flores. Kwesi wants to get faster and longer. I think that this is the perfect compliment for what Kwesi's vision is. Can I be the first to say Thank You for all of your efforts to the aging veterans. I expect even more so a move to youth and speed this offseason.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by StumpHunter »

Evero was my #1 and once he went with Carolina I wanted Flores. He is exactly the no nonsense, anti-culture of collaboration coach the Vikings need to whip this D into shape. I do have concerns about some of the distractions he could bring with his lawsuit, but even that could be a bonus because it could keep him from getting a HC job.

His work with NE in their 2018 SB winning season proved he could call a championship caliber defense, and the way he transformed Miami's defense over a couple of seasons proved he could take a bad defense and transform it into a good one with his scheme and personnel building.

It also proves that it could take a season for this defense to come around and there is a good chance the D is just as bad next season as it was this season.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

This is a good get, even if it's only for a year.

Honestly, if it's only for a year, what does that mean?

It means the Vikings' defense came up in the world. Probably way up.

The offense is only going to get better. Kirk got better and better as the season wore on. Get some speed opposite of JJ, and this offense could be lethal. Pair that with a passable defense, maybe top 15 or even top 20, and the Vikings will be right back where they were this year. Tall order, given the age of many of our players and the lack of draft picks, but we'll certainly see how good Flores is.

Conversely, if they go out there and suck their way to 31st again, how many teams are going to come calling for Flores?

I hope he's got teams blowing up his phone this time next year.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by CharVike »

makila wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:02 am Huh? Flores runs a very aggressive 3-4. Lots of man coverage. Load up and blitz a ton. Very little 2 deep safety.

-----
"....The way the Dolphins deployed their defenders was the polar opposite of last year’s Vikings. While Donatell’s defense showed a two-high safety shell look pre-snap, Flores’ Dolphins defense in 2021 ranked last in the NFL in two-high safety shell usage. Additionally, while Donatell’s defense regularly used six men in the box, Flores’ 2021 Dolphins defense had the third-lowest percentage of light boxes...."
-----

Basically the exact opposite of fangio/donatell with his 3-4, bend don't break scheme.
In 2021 Miami was 15th in points allowed per game which is really what matters the most. Basically middle of the road. They get an average grade. Load up and blitz didn't help much that season. I don't like a 3-4 no more than that. I'd rather go 5-2. I don't care about some exotic blitz because I don't even know what the hell that means. Give me speed rushers at the point. I know what that is and have seen it work in a big way over my lifetime watching. Check out the 46 4-3. That's attacking the QB. I could see if 2021 Phins were top 5 in points allowed but that wasn't the case. Alot of effort for minimum results. Wheel spinning. Hopefully it works like in 2021 for the Phins which will put us in the middle. That's a big improvement over Donatells 3-4 spin. That could happen.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

CharVike wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:54 am
makila wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:02 am Huh? Flores runs a very aggressive 3-4. Lots of man coverage. Load up and blitz a ton. Very little 2 deep safety.

-----
"....The way the Dolphins deployed their defenders was the polar opposite of last year’s Vikings. While Donatell’s defense showed a two-high safety shell look pre-snap, Flores’ Dolphins defense in 2021 ranked last in the NFL in two-high safety shell usage. Additionally, while Donatell’s defense regularly used six men in the box, Flores’ 2021 Dolphins defense had the third-lowest percentage of light boxes...."
-----

Basically the exact opposite of fangio/donatell with his 3-4, bend don't break scheme.
In 2021 Miami was 15th in points allowed per game which is really what matters the most. Basically middle of the road. They get an average grade. Load up and blitz didn't help much that season. I don't like a 3-4 no more than that. I'd rather go 5-2. I don't care about some exotic blitz because I don't even know what the hell that means. Give me speed rushers at the point. I know what that is and have seen it work in a big way over my lifetime watching. Check out the 46 4-3. That's attacking the QB. I could see if 2021 Phins were top 5 in points allowed but that wasn't the case. Alot of effort for minimum results. Wheel spinning. Hopefully it works like in 2021 for the Phins which will put us in the middle. That's a big improvement over Donatells 3-4 spin. That could happen.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by StumpHunter »

CharVike wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:54 am
makila wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:02 am Huh? Flores runs a very aggressive 3-4. Lots of man coverage. Load up and blitz a ton. Very little 2 deep safety.

-----
"....The way the Dolphins deployed their defenders was the polar opposite of last year’s Vikings. While Donatell’s defense showed a two-high safety shell look pre-snap, Flores’ Dolphins defense in 2021 ranked last in the NFL in two-high safety shell usage. Additionally, while Donatell’s defense regularly used six men in the box, Flores’ 2021 Dolphins defense had the third-lowest percentage of light boxes...."
-----

Basically the exact opposite of fangio/donatell with his 3-4, bend don't break scheme.
In 2021 Miami was 15th in points allowed per game which is really what matters the most. Basically middle of the road. They get an average grade. Load up and blitz didn't help much that season. I don't like a 3-4 no more than that. I'd rather go 5-2. I don't care about some exotic blitz because I don't even know what the hell that means. Give me speed rushers at the point. I know what that is and have seen it work in a big way over my lifetime watching. Check out the 46 4-3. That's attacking the QB. I could see if 2021 Phins were top 5 in points allowed but that wasn't the case. Alot of effort for minimum results. Wheel spinning. Hopefully it works like in 2021 for the Phins which will put us in the middle. That's a big improvement over Donatells 3-4 spin. That could happen.
In 2021 Miami was 9th in points per drive given up, a stat that doesn't include points given up by the offense or special teams and doesn't punish defenses for being on the field more because their offense.
In 2020 they were 5th.
In 2019 they were 32nd after being 24th in 2018 prior to Flores taking over.

That 2019 season is why I think fans should temper their expectations for next year. It implies his defense is not easy to learn and it will take a while for him to transform the Vikings into a defense that is championship caliber. Miami started 3 rookies on defense that season and a couple of career backups, so that didn't help either, but I could see the Vikings starting 3 rookies and some career backups with the cuts coming.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

StumpHunter wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:14 am
CharVike wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:54 am
In 2021 Miami was 15th in points allowed per game which is really what matters the most. Basically middle of the road. They get an average grade. Load up and blitz didn't help much that season. I don't like a 3-4 no more than that. I'd rather go 5-2. I don't care about some exotic blitz because I don't even know what the hell that means. Give me speed rushers at the point. I know what that is and have seen it work in a big way over my lifetime watching. Check out the 46 4-3. That's attacking the QB. I could see if 2021 Phins were top 5 in points allowed but that wasn't the case. Alot of effort for minimum results. Wheel spinning. Hopefully it works like in 2021 for the Phins which will put us in the middle. That's a big improvement over Donatells 3-4 spin. That could happen.
In 2021 Miami was 9th in points per drive given up, a stat that doesn't include points given up by the offense or special teams and doesn't punish defenses for being on the field more because their offense.
In 2020 they were 5th.
In 2019 they were 32nd after being 24th in 2018 prior to Flores taking over.

That 2019 season is why I think fans should temper their expectations for next year. It implies his defense is not easy to learn and it will take a while for him to transform the Vikings into a defense that is championship caliber. Miami started 3 rookies on defense that season and a couple of career backups, so that didn't help either, but I could see the Vikings starting 3 rookies and some career backups with the cuts coming.
Yeah Purple Daily talked about this today. That based on what happened in Miami, the first year could still be a little rough but the second year, Miami's defense skyrocketed. This is what makes you wish Flores was hired from the start when KOC was hired. Because we would be going into 2023 primed for explosion on both sides of the ball.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

StumpHunter wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:14 am
CharVike wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:54 am
In 2021 Miami was 15th in points allowed per game which is really what matters the most. Basically middle of the road. They get an average grade. Load up and blitz didn't help much that season. I don't like a 3-4 no more than that. I'd rather go 5-2. I don't care about some exotic blitz because I don't even know what the hell that means. Give me speed rushers at the point. I know what that is and have seen it work in a big way over my lifetime watching. Check out the 46 4-3. That's attacking the QB. I could see if 2021 Phins were top 5 in points allowed but that wasn't the case. Alot of effort for minimum results. Wheel spinning. Hopefully it works like in 2021 for the Phins which will put us in the middle. That's a big improvement over Donatells 3-4 spin. That could happen.
In 2021 Miami was 9th in points per drive given up, a stat that doesn't include points given up by the offense or special teams and doesn't punish defenses for being on the field more because their offense.
In 2020 they were 5th.
In 2019 they were 32nd after being 24th in 2018 prior to Flores taking over.

That 2019 season is why I think fans should temper their expectations for next year. It implies his defense is not easy to learn and it will take a while for him to transform the Vikings into a defense that is championship caliber. Miami started 3 rookies on defense that season and a couple of career backups, so that didn't help either, but I could see the Vikings starting 3 rookies and some career backups with the cuts coming.
Solid post.

Totally agree. Excited about the hire, but I also realize that we’ve got a real age/talent dilemma going right now. It could take a couple of years to build this thing on the defensive side of the ball. The good news is that we’ve got a guy with a true track record of recent success, rather than a disciple of someone else’s success with little track record of his own.

QUICK EDIT: One thing to remember about Flores ... when he was hired in 2019, Dolphins ownership was actively trying to tank. This is the gist of his lawsuit against them, that they ordered him to lose games. Not only that, the common rumor was that they were recruiting Sean Payton behind his back. That team started 0-7, yet held it together and finished 5-11. That improved to 10-6 in 2020, and 9-8 in 2021.

I think the Vikings are in a better situation in 2023 than Miami was in 2019.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:00 am Evero was my #1 and once he went with Carolina I wanted Flores. He is exactly the no nonsense, anti-culture of collaboration coach the Vikings need to whip this D into shape. I do have concerns about some of the distractions he could bring with his lawsuit, but even that could be a bonus because it could keep him from getting a HC job.

His work with NE in their 2018 SB winning season proved he could call a championship caliber defense, and the way he transformed Miami's defense over a couple of seasons proved he could take a bad defense and transform it into a good one with his scheme and personnel building.

It also proves that it could take a season for this defense to come around and there is a good chance the D is just as bad next season as it was this season.
I'm OK with it taking time for Flores to turn it around.

Along those lines, I hope KOC gives Flores space to actually turn it around. By that I mean let the defensive mind create the defense he envisions with the players he has and can get. KOC is an offensive mind and should focus that mind on his offense and the overall team. Let Flores design and call the defense. Not saying Donatell didn't have that freedom last year because he very well may have, but maybe Donatell just wasn't the right guy for the players he had. Flores I suspect is going to come at things with a little more structure and more defined ideas about how to move forward.

This is a great fit for both sides. Flores is the kind of guy the Vikings need to come in and get the defense back on the right track, while the Vikings defense is a perfect reclamation project for a guy like Flores. If he can come in and get them performing similar to what he did in Miami, he'll be back in consideration for multiple head coaching jobs at some point.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:19 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:00 am Evero was my #1 and once he went with Carolina I wanted Flores. He is exactly the no nonsense, anti-culture of collaboration coach the Vikings need to whip this D into shape. I do have concerns about some of the distractions he could bring with his lawsuit, but even that could be a bonus because it could keep him from getting a HC job.

His work with NE in their 2018 SB winning season proved he could call a championship caliber defense, and the way he transformed Miami's defense over a couple of seasons proved he could take a bad defense and transform it into a good one with his scheme and personnel building.

It also proves that it could take a season for this defense to come around and there is a good chance the D is just as bad next season as it was this season.
I'm OK with it taking time for Flores to turn it around.

Along those lines, I hope KOC gives Flores space to actually turn it around. By that I mean let the defensive mind create the defense he envisions with the players he has and can get. KOC is an offensive mind and should focus that mind on his offense and the overall team. Let Flores design and call the defense. Not saying Donatell didn't have that freedom last year because he very well may have, but maybe Donatell just wasn't the right guy for the players he had. Flores I suspect is going to come at things with a little more structure and more defined ideas about how to move forward.

This is a great fit for both sides. Flores is the kind of guy the Vikings need to come in and get the defense back on the right track, while the Vikings defense is a perfect reclamation project for a guy like Flores. If he can come in and get them performing similar to what he did in Miami, he'll be back in consideration for multiple head coaching jobs at some point.
The "great fits" you mention may be with some of the guys we already have.

I give you Harrison Smith as an example. Under Donatell, Smith rushed the passer just 12 times. Contrast that with what Zimmer did with Smith. In 2015, for example, Smith rushed the passer 80 times and had 25 pressures. That's a phenomenal rate. This is no surprise — we've all known for years how good a pass rusher Smith is from his safety position. Flores, as an aggressive defensive playcaller, seems likely to use Smith in that role far more often than Donatell, who seemed to have Smith playing so far off the ball that he was almost useless in pass rush, and far less effective against the run. Maybe Smith, who seemed "old" last year, isn't as old as the scheme made him look.

Another one is Lewis Cine. I get it ... "Cam Bynum won the job in training camp." OK great. But Cine was always known as a downhill missile at Georgia. Maybe Flores uses Cine as a pass rusher and leaves Harrison to sit back and play center field. Or maybe teams will have to worry about which one will be rushing. Cine was also very aggressive against the run ... Donatell's safeties were only involved in the running game if backs broke into the secondary. No matter what, it seems like more defensive malpractice to not give your first-round draft choice ANY snaps at all, even if Bynum actually won the job in camp.

Another is Brian Asamoah. Flores made his hay as a linebackers coach in New England. Asamoah has athleticism out the ying yang. Something tells me he's going to thrive under Flores. Asamoah certainly thinks so. Here's his tweet right after Flores was signed.



Finally, the guy we all love to flame ... Andrew Booth. This guy was an aggressive man defender at Clemson. He had a reputation of being a gambler, and a guy who was very physical with receivers. He comes to Minnesota, and Donatell has him — you got it — playing 10 yards off the LOS. Totally against how he's wired. Of course, the wild card in all this is his health. He's got to stay on the field. But let's say he can ... I have to believe Booth has a better chance to play well under Flores than he did under Donatell.

Free up some cap space and find some help on defense, and for God's sake, draft well and USE your higher picks. Play them. Let them make their mistakes and grow. The Chiefs had like five or six defensive rookies make huge plays in the AFC Championship Game. The Vikings have GOT to get better mileage out of theirs.

Bottom line: There's a distinct possibility that some of our draft picks from last year were weirdly miscast under Donatell, and could take steps forward under Brian Flores.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by Foreman44 »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:08 am This is a good get, even if it's only for a year.

Honestly, if it's only for a year, what does that mean?

It means the Vikings' defense came up in the world. Probably way up.

The offense is only going to get better. Kirk got better and better as the season wore on. Get some speed opposite of JJ, and this offense could be lethal. Pair that with a passable defense, maybe top 15 or even top 20, and the Vikings will be right back where they were this year. Tall order, given the age of many of our players and the lack of draft picks, but we'll certainly see how good Flores is.

Conversely, if they go out there and suck their way to 31st again, how many teams are going to come calling for Flores?

I hope he's got teams blowing up his phone this time next year.
If our offense next year is as good next year this years, that’s great... if Flores defense even moves top 10-15. We make the NFC Championship, or SB.

He make many Viking fans happy..

But my guess is we will see a big improvement defensively. But finds a early exit home. But Flores will finds a 2024 HC job

Then next year, Our Vikings are back to square one. Back to square one.searching for a new DC.

Do we find another Flores, or another Donatell.

Unfortunately I guess that’s the NFL. You can’t blame Flores excepting a HC position if offered

I bet McVey didn’t like to lose. KOC either.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by makila »

Foreman44 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:45 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:08 am This is a good get, even if it's only for a year.

Honestly, if it's only for a year, what does that mean?

It means the Vikings' defense came up in the world. Probably way up.

The offense is only going to get better. Kirk got better and better as the season wore on. Get some speed opposite of JJ, and this offense could be lethal. Pair that with a passable defense, maybe top 15 or even top 20, and the Vikings will be right back where they were this year. Tall order, given the age of many of our players and the lack of draft picks, but we'll certainly see how good Flores is.

Conversely, if they go out there and suck their way to 31st again, how many teams are going to come calling for Flores?

I hope he's got teams blowing up his phone this time next year.
If our offense next year is as good next year this years, that’s great... if Flores defense even moves top 10-15. We make the NFC Championship, or SB.

He make many Viking fans happy..

But my guess is we will see a big improvement defensively. But finds a early exit home. But Flores will finds a 2024 HC job

Then next year, Our Vikings are back to square one. Back to square one.searching for a new DC.

Do we find another Flores, or another Donatell.

Unfortunately I guess that’s the NFL. You can’t blame Flores excepting a HC position if offered

I bet McVey didn’t like to lose. KOC either.
Yeah it's nature of beast. If you are good as a coordinator you will elevate to HC somewhere. As you said, look at the changes (due to success) experienced by the Rams staff.

If Flores is a HC after next season, it's likely due to and success the defense here has next season. You can plug anyone into that scenario and the outcome is the same. They don't get elevated to hc if the unit they coordinate is poor.

Kapp, good post above. My initial thoughts last night when I heard the news was; (1) Cine and Booth seem to align more with Flores' scheme from their college tape, (2) build around Hunter on the line, and (3) Asamoah is gonna get a chance to be coached by a guy who can maximize his skill set imho (having watched him in person at college many times).

Obviously as heavily discussed on pods, and here, H Smith and D Tomlinson more important to keep now.

I am kinda indifferent on Z Smith. I know that's due to how he finished the season. I just have no confidence he can stay healthy at this point in his career.

Also don't think PP in a man scheme is gonna go well.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

makila wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:46 pm
Also don't think PP in a man scheme is gonna go well.
Agreed. That's why I didnt keep him in my mock offseason. I will say, someone that I think is going to fit well are guys like Booth, Asamoah and Cine. These 3 are all aggressive players that seem to fit Flores' scheme much more than Donatell's
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by StumpHunter »

Foreman44 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:45 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:08 am This is a good get, even if it's only for a year.

Honestly, if it's only for a year, what does that mean?

It means the Vikings' defense came up in the world. Probably way up.

The offense is only going to get better. Kirk got better and better as the season wore on. Get some speed opposite of JJ, and this offense could be lethal. Pair that with a passable defense, maybe top 15 or even top 20, and the Vikings will be right back where they were this year. Tall order, given the age of many of our players and the lack of draft picks, but we'll certainly see how good Flores is.

Conversely, if they go out there and suck their way to 31st again, how many teams are going to come calling for Flores?

I hope he's got teams blowing up his phone this time next year.
If our offense next year is as good next year this years, that’s great... if Flores defense even moves top 10-15. We make the NFC Championship, or SB.
Conference Championship Teams Offensive DVOA Rank:
1st (KC)
3rd (Philly)
4th (Cincy)
6th (SF, but #1 since Purdy took over)

Vikings: 20th

Conference Championship Teams Defensive DVOA Rank:
1st (SF)
6th (Philly)
11th (Cincy)
17th (KC)

Vikings: 27th

Points per drive offensively
1st (KC)
3rd (Philly)
5th (Cincy)
7th (SF, but again, much better with Purdy)

Vikings: 12th

Points per drive defensively
1st (SF)
8th (Cincy)
11th (Philly)
21st (KC)

Vikings: 24th (but a virtual tie with KC)

A defense in the 10-15 range is doable with the talent the Vikings could have next season, and I do think a 10-15 defense gets them past the Giants to the divisional round. It would not have come close to getting them past SF in the divisional round though. An improvement on defense makes the team better, but the Vikings need to be significantly better offensively too to compete with the big boys. Unfortunately, I don't see them making any improvements on that side of the ball and likely will get worse at RB and WR. So while Flores improves the team, and nailing the draft with great defensive picks could improve the defense, the Vikings are still a long way from really competing.
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Re: Flores is our new DC

Post by IIsweet »

Really glad to see what you put out there Stump. PHP has been screaming it, we need to help JJ on the outside and have another weapon. I feel also that we need to add a player that can definitely step into that role and make teams honest, whether it is deep speed or whatever. Think Cris Carter was very good, but when Moss arrived, he became elite! JJ is already elite, but there is not a complimentary guy that a team has to scheme for.
As much as we need that WR, we HAVE TO address the IOL. I have said over and over my disdain for Cleveland and Bradbury. Ingram had rookie issues, but he was not helped in any way by Bustbury. Solidifying a bigger and better IOL will allow the pocket to not collapse and Cousins a little extra time for the plays to develop and JJ, TJ, and co. can get into space.

I still though am so excited for Flores. I wonder if he brings in some coaches and revamps the defensive staff? I get it that it is KOC and KAM's team, but does Flores get total autonomy with the defensive side of the ball and coaching staff?
Regardless, like I had mentioned, Flores IMO is exactly the complimentary piece to Kwesi's vision, Speed, Explosiveness, and length.