The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

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IIsweet
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by IIsweet »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:37 am
IIsweet wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:01 pm

No. He is not an impact player imo. Kene definitely is when the other team kicks off. We hopefully do not see it very often, but when we do, you will see his value surpasses what Mattison brings, again imo... Nwangwu has the ability to flip a field every time he touches the ball as a KR.
Playing for Zimmer as a rookie last year meant that he did not get opportunities. He has 13 carries for 61 yards. To me, I would want to see more of the explosiveness.
Hence why MZ is no longer the HC.
We greatly disagree on this. Mattison to me is about 4 times as impactful for the Vikings as Kene is.
That is fine. Its just an opinion that I have. Would Cordarelle Patterson have been in the top 20 back when he was just a KR ? Regarded as one of the elite in NFL. I just think Nwangwu will be an impactful player.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:46 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:16 am 1a.) WR- Justin Jefferson- Tough decided between Jefferson and Hunter but they are easily our top 2 IMO
1b.) EDGE- Danielle Hunter- refer to above
3.) RB- Dalvin Cook- Top 3 RB in the league and deserves to be high on the list
4.) RT- Brian O'Neill- Top 5 RT in the NFL IMO and has been solid since day 1
5.) S- Harrison Smith- Couldnt leave Harry out of the top 5. Age is a factor, but he's such a smart and heady player
6.) QB- Kirk Cousins- some may like it, some may not. I dont really care lol.
7.) WR- Adam Thielen- Getting up in age but still so reliable and will beat you with heart and hustle
8.) EDGE- Za'Darius Smith- Going off his 2020, he definitely deserves to be in the top 10 and I think he will thrive here.
9.) LB- Eric Kendricks- went a little "downhill" last year but I'll bank on his talent over 1 bad year (for him that is)
10.) LT- Christian Darrisaw- Really turned into a stud in the last half of the year. Can see him moving up after this year.
11.) CB- Cam Dantzler- some may think this is high, but when he played last year he was a sneaky good.
12.) CB- Patrick Peterson- not what he once was but solid in every aspect and a great leader.
13.) TE- Irv Smith Jr.- was stuck behind Rudy and then his first chance he got he was injured. That changes this year
14.) LB- Jordan Hicks- just a solid durable linebacker that's a tackling machine and will fit well with EK
15.) DT- Dalvin Tomlinson- was a very solid player for us last year and solid in every system he's been in
16.) DT- Harrison Phillips- will go hand in hand with Tomlinson and I believe they will make a good tandem
17.) WR- KJ Osborn- as solid of a #3 as you could ask for. I think he will see even more looks in this new offense.
18.) LG- Ezra Cleveland- very underrated player IMO, not great but far from horrible. Just a steady guard.
19.) S- Lewis Cine- it's early but believe he will quickly fly up this list and is really going to be a key player on this team.
20.) EDGE- DJ Wonnum- was "meh" on him for a while but started to come on recently and think he will have a solid role
Would it be fair to say that for any team that is considered a Superbowl contender, the QB would be first on that team's list?
Looking back at past SB winners:

The Rams Donald is #1, but Stafford is 2 or 3 depending on where you put Kupp.

TB Brady was #1

KC Mahomes was #1

NE Brady was #1

Philly Foles was not close to being #1, but Wentz got them the #1 seed by playing like he was the best player on that team

NE Brady was #1

Denver Manning was not #1 in that SB winning season

NE Brady was #1

Seattle Wilson was #1

Baltimore Flacco probably was their 2nd best best player at the time

NYG Manning was #1

GB Rodgers was #1

Saints the refs were #1, but Brees was their best player

NYG Manning was #1

And it continues with QBs being the best player on their team until the TB Bucs won it 2002.

You can win with your QB not being the best player on the team, it just rarely happens and when it does, that team around them is elite.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

IIsweet wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:01 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:07 am
Is Mattison in your top 20? I like Kene, but he will not have as much impact as Mattison.
No. He is not an impact player imo. Kene definitely is when the other team kicks off. We hopefully do not see it very often, but when we do, you will see his value surpasses what Mattison brings, again imo... Nwangwu has the ability to flip a field every time he touches the ball as a KR.
Playing for Zimmer as a rookie last year meant that he did not get opportunities. He has 13 carries for 61 yards. To me, I would want to see more of the explosiveness.
Hence why MZ is no longer the HC.
Mattison is a grinder. He's a poor man's Ezekiel Elliott IMO. They arent breaking off 80 yard runs but they will grind you all game. Mattison is a solid backup to have. He's built like a horse and has the body for taking hits. He's a north-south runner that runs well in between the tackles and can catch the ball.

People want to argue what his YPC was last year....terrible argument. Look at his YPC when he's been the starter and fully filling in for Dalvin the last two years. Not his YPC when you're throwing in multiple 3-5 carry games.

2021:
26 for 112
25 for 113
22 for 90

2020:
20 for 112
21 for 95

That's 114 carries for 522 yards and 4.6 YPC. Zero reason to complain about a backup that puts up those numbers when filling in as a starter. It's just everyone is so use to Dalvin's explosiveness and elusiveness that they tend to put him and Mattison next to each other and compare and that's just not a fair comparison. They are two completely different RBs. Dalvin is your McCaffery/Kamara type that's explosive and elusive where Mattison is more like an Ezekiel Elliott who will grind you all game from start to finish. We have that explosiveness in Kene and even Chandler. But I think Mattison is the clear cut RB2 this year and a very important part of this team. I think next year Mattison will walk and be a starter somewhere and Chandler will slide into that #2 role.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by StanM »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:10 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:26 am
Interesting choice of Kene. Unless he returns at a ridiculously high level it's tough to justify him top 20 as the #3 or IMO more likely #4 RB.
I am getting tired of Mattison, but Kene isnt the answer. I would rather we keep Rose if they were going in that direction of RB's. I dont think we will ever see a RB like Cook again. I think KAM and KOC know the value of RBs in todays NFL. We should have drafted a RB in the 5th round. There were a few bruisers out there yet.

To add another point to yours running backs being involved in the passing game will be a much bigger part of this new offense. The AP style where we’d get excited when they hand off to him all day but not when he ran a pass route are likely over.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:46 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:16 am 1a.) WR- Justin Jefferson- Tough decided between Jefferson and Hunter but they are easily our top 2 IMO
1b.) EDGE- Danielle Hunter- refer to above
3.) RB- Dalvin Cook- Top 3 RB in the league and deserves to be high on the list
4.) RT- Brian O'Neill- Top 5 RT in the NFL IMO and has been solid since day 1
5.) S- Harrison Smith- Couldnt leave Harry out of the top 5. Age is a factor, but he's such a smart and heady player
6.) QB- Kirk Cousins- some may like it, some may not. I dont really care lol.
7.) WR- Adam Thielen- Getting up in age but still so reliable and will beat you with heart and hustle
8.) EDGE- Za'Darius Smith- Going off his 2020, he definitely deserves to be in the top 10 and I think he will thrive here.
9.) LB- Eric Kendricks- went a little "downhill" last year but I'll bank on his talent over 1 bad year (for him that is)
10.) LT- Christian Darrisaw- Really turned into a stud in the last half of the year. Can see him moving up after this year.
11.) CB- Cam Dantzler- some may think this is high, but when he played last year he was a sneaky good.
12.) CB- Patrick Peterson- not what he once was but solid in every aspect and a great leader.
13.) TE- Irv Smith Jr.- was stuck behind Rudy and then his first chance he got he was injured. That changes this year
14.) LB- Jordan Hicks- just a solid durable linebacker that's a tackling machine and will fit well with EK
15.) DT- Dalvin Tomlinson- was a very solid player for us last year and solid in every system he's been in
16.) DT- Harrison Phillips- will go hand in hand with Tomlinson and I believe they will make a good tandem
17.) WR- KJ Osborn- as solid of a #3 as you could ask for. I think he will see even more looks in this new offense.
18.) LG- Ezra Cleveland- very underrated player IMO, not great but far from horrible. Just a steady guard.
19.) S- Lewis Cine- it's early but believe he will quickly fly up this list and is really going to be a key player on this team.
20.) EDGE- DJ Wonnum- was "meh" on him for a while but started to come on recently and think he will have a solid role
Would it be fair to say that for any team that is considered a Superbowl contender, the QB would be first on that team's list?

That is an honest question and not a criticism of your list.

Also, I wonder if this list would be different if "player reliability" were somehow factored in. In other words, there is a pure talent ranking, and then something like a "practical impact" ranking that factors in all the games missed due to injuries over that player's career to arrive at an "effective ranking".
Good point but no not necessarily. There's a lot of teams that are considered contenders but wouldnt have a QB #1. The defending SB champs being one. There could be an argument made that Donald, Kupp and Ramsey are all above Stafford. The 49ers were a contender last year and I'm not sure their QB would even be in their top 10. Sure, your Pat Mahomes' of the world will be their teams #1 player but that's not the case for all contenders.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 am
IIsweet wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:01 pm

No. He is not an impact player imo. Kene definitely is when the other team kicks off. We hopefully do not see it very often, but when we do, you will see his value surpasses what Mattison brings, again imo... Nwangwu has the ability to flip a field every time he touches the ball as a KR.
Playing for Zimmer as a rookie last year meant that he did not get opportunities. He has 13 carries for 61 yards. To me, I would want to see more of the explosiveness.
Hence why MZ is no longer the HC.
Mattison is a grinder. He's a poor man's Ezekiel Elliott IMO. They arent breaking off 80 yard runs but they will grind you all game. Mattison is a solid backup to have. He's built like a horse and has the body for taking hits. He's a north-south runner that runs well in between the tackles and can catch the ball.

People want to argue what his YPC was last year....terrible argument. Look at his YPC when he's been the starter and fully filling in for Dalvin the last two years. Not his YPC when you're throwing in multiple 3-5 carry games.

2021:
26 for 112
25 for 113
22 for 90

2020:
20 for 112
21 for 95

That's 114 carries for 522 yards and 4.6 YPC. Zero reason to complain about a backup that puts up those numbers when filling in as a starter. It's just everyone is so use to Dalvin's explosiveness and elusiveness that they tend to put him and Mattison next to each other and compare and that's just not a fair comparison. They are two completely different RBs. Dalvin is your McCaffery/Kamara type that's explosive and elusive where Mattison is more like an Ezekiel Elliott who will grind you all game from start to finish. We have that explosiveness in Kene and even Chandler. But I think Mattison is the clear cut RB2 this year and a very important part of this team. I think next year Mattison will walk and be a starter somewhere and Chandler will slide into that #2 role.
Pretty much the same way I see it. If Kene proves to be as good as Patterson returning kicks I would still favor Mattison for overall impact, but it would be a good debate. Kene has a very small sample size to put him in Patterson's company.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by StumpHunter »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 am
IIsweet wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:01 pm

No. He is not an impact player imo. Kene definitely is when the other team kicks off. We hopefully do not see it very often, but when we do, you will see his value surpasses what Mattison brings, again imo... Nwangwu has the ability to flip a field every time he touches the ball as a KR.
Playing for Zimmer as a rookie last year meant that he did not get opportunities. He has 13 carries for 61 yards. To me, I would want to see more of the explosiveness.
Hence why MZ is no longer the HC.
Mattison is a grinder. He's a poor man's Ezekiel Elliott IMO. They arent breaking off 80 yard runs but they will grind you all game. Mattison is a solid backup to have. He's built like a horse and has the body for taking hits. He's a north-south runner that runs well in between the tackles and can catch the ball.

People want to argue what his YPC was last year....terrible argument. Look at his YPC when he's been the starter and fully filling in for Dalvin the last two years. Not his YPC when you're throwing in multiple 3-5 carry games.

2021:
26 for 112
25 for 113
22 for 90

2020:
20 for 112
21 for 95

That's 114 carries for 522 yards and 4.6 YPC. Zero reason to complain about a backup that puts up those numbers when filling in as a starter.
Except 3 of his 6 starts (you missed his elite performance against Atlanta in 2020 and LAR in 2021, but included a game against Seattle where he didn't start) are against the Detroit Lions, who gave up the 5th most yards in both 2020 and 2021 and were the 27th and 31st best rush defense according to DVOA in 2020 and 2021 respectively.

Outside of his 3 starts against one of the worst rush defenses in the NFL his YPC:
2.5
4.31
3.15

And it wasn't like his YPC was great against Detroit either, averaging 4.38 against Detroit who has averaged giving up 4.4 YPC against. So even against Detroit he was worse than most RBs Detroit faced.

On top of that, it isn't just that his YPC was bad, it was that it was so much worse than the starter's. His .9 YPC less than Cook's is the 5th worst difference of any backup RB. Typically the backup has more YPC than the starter since they take fewer hits and come in fresher against worn down defenses.

He was a below average backup last year with little upside and unless things change significantly this year, the Vikings should be looking to move on in 2023. It could be that the Oline was just that bad last year at run blocking and the only reason it looked serviceable was because Cook is so good, but based on the previous season's lack of success, he is on a downward trend.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:02 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 am

Mattison is a grinder. He's a poor man's Ezekiel Elliott IMO. They arent breaking off 80 yard runs but they will grind you all game. Mattison is a solid backup to have. He's built like a horse and has the body for taking hits. He's a north-south runner that runs well in between the tackles and can catch the ball.

People want to argue what his YPC was last year....terrible argument. Look at his YPC when he's been the starter and fully filling in for Dalvin the last two years. Not his YPC when you're throwing in multiple 3-5 carry games.

2021:
26 for 112
25 for 113
22 for 90

2020:
20 for 112
21 for 95

That's 114 carries for 522 yards and 4.6 YPC. Zero reason to complain about a backup that puts up those numbers when filling in as a starter. It's just everyone is so use to Dalvin's explosiveness and elusiveness that they tend to put him and Mattison next to each other and compare and that's just not a fair comparison. They are two completely different RBs. Dalvin is your McCaffery/Kamara type that's explosive and elusive where Mattison is more like an Ezekiel Elliott who will grind you all game from start to finish. We have that explosiveness in Kene and even Chandler. But I think Mattison is the clear cut RB2 this year and a very important part of this team. I think next year Mattison will walk and be a starter somewhere and Chandler will slide into that #2 role.
Pretty much the same way I see it. If Kene proves to be as good as Patterson returning kicks I would still favor Mattison for overall impact, but it would be a good debate. Kene has a very small sample size to put him in Patterson's company.
Yeah and his sample size is his sample size. He's had one of the best RBs in the game ahead of him. So the only way to truly judge him is off the games he's started for Dalvin. In turn, no matter what twist anyone tries to put on it, he's done excellent in spot duty and has been one of the more reliable backups in the NFL.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by IIsweet »

Hey, I like Mattison and he is a solid backup for spelling Cook. Even stepping in as a feature back.... Under Zim !!!
I am hoping for a more explosive type of game played with elite athletic abilities. Not a ground and pound 3 yards and another down type of mentality.
Regardless what we all say and want.... Bottom line is wins, playoffs, and a realistic SB is all we really want !!!
To me Kene and Chandler fit the future, not the past !!!
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

IIsweet wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:09 pm Hey, I like Mattison and he is a solid backup for spelling Cook. Even stepping in as a feature back.... Under Zim !!!
I am hoping for a more explosive type of game played with elite athletic abilities. Not a ground and pound 3 yards and another down type of mentality.
Regardless what we all say and want.... Bottom line is wins, playoffs, and a realistic SB is all we really want !!!
To me Kene and Chandler fit the future, not the past !!!
Right. But one part of Mattisons game, coming out of college, was his receiving yards. He was really good at screens and underneath stuff. Hoping we see more of that with matti and Cook. But not 10 yrds behind the LOS and cousins throws the ball to them with no blockers. :puke:
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by StanM »

VikingsFan84 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:56 pm Cook should not be on the list because he can not stay healthy :confused:
Question. I see comments like yours about players not being able to stay healthy and am trying to understand what that means. The way it’s put always makes the implication that the player is doing something wrong or has some kind of “can’t stay healthy” gene.

Where does bad luck and simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time come into play? The idea that an athlete who makes his living staying in condition isn’t doing something right because someone rolls up on his leg and blows his knee out doesn’t make sense. Maybe in a few cases a player might need to bulk up and add some muscle mass but there have been smaller lighter HOF receivers who have held up fine their whole careers.

Whenever people say that a player can’t stay healthy without defining what that is sounds more like a cliche than anything tangible that can be corrected.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by IIsweet »

Another take on my preference of Kene instead of Mattison...
When are we expecting to see Mattison ?
To spell Cook, give Cook a breather, or if Cook is injured. How can our 20th ranked player be a guy who we only see when one of our top players needs a break. That's more impactful than our elite return guy who is the unquestionable #1 KR !!
Mattison is a backup player for us.
Is he a better RB than Knee ? Probably, but we don't know?
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by fiestavike »

Mattison is a middling player. There is no compelling take to the contrary. I had higher hopes for him, and he's fine, but that's all. He's a roughly average NFL back.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious »

IIsweet wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:22 pm Another take on my preference of Kene instead of Mattison...
When are we expecting to see Mattison ?
To spell Cook, give Cook a breather, or if Cook is injured. How can our 20th ranked player be a guy who we only see when one of our top players needs a break. That's more impactful than our elite return guy who is the unquestionable #1 KR !!
Mattison is a backup player for us.
Is he a better RB than Knee ? Probably, but we don't know?
Kene gets from 1-3 plays a game and might have one kind of big play. He might score 2 TDs on the season. Mattison will get 7-10 plays a game and 30 or more if Cook is out. He will likely make a greater impact than Kene most of the time. Let's see how this plays out.
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Re: The Top 20 2022 Minnesota Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious »

fiestavike wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:57 pm Mattison is a middling player. There is no compelling take to the contrary. I had higher hopes for him, and he's fine, but that's all. He's a roughly average NFL back.
He's about average for a starting RB in the NFL and will likely sign with another team to be their starter when we decide he's too expensive. IMO he's definitely one of our top 20. It's OK if you see it differently.