Ty Chandler

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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

vikeinmontana wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 11:50 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:33 pm
Sorry man, but you’re not looking at this like a GM, unless it’s a fantasy GM.

Teams that pay running backs big money don’t win Super Bowls. It’s really that simple. Instead of laughing at me, look it up. Look at all the Super Bowl rosters over the past 10 years, both winners and losers, and check their running back salaries on overthecap or Spotrac. Most of the teams with the highest-paid running backs don’t even make the playoffs. Or if they do, like Tennessee as CharVike pointed out, they exit quickly.

I do not care about individual accomplishments, fantasy points, or once-in-a-blue-moon exciting runs. I’ve been a fan since 1969, and I’m tired of seeing other teams win the Super Bowl every year. It has been 45 years since we even MADE a Super Bowl.

Everybody who worships Dalvin Cook needs to come to grips with the fact that this may well be his last year as a Viking. He’s entering his 6th year, an eternity for a running back. He’s played in just 56 of a possible 90 games. And he’s going to account for a $12 million cap hit this year and $14 million next year. My belief is that the Vikings will either release him after this season, saving $8 million against the cap, or trade him. Laugh if you want, but you should know that people also laughed when I called both AP’s release and the Diggs trade long before they happened.

And then, you watch. Kwesi will never again put the team on the hook for big money to a running back. He’s all about value, and a running back at $14 million is about as far from value as you can get.
I agree with your premise Kapp. You simply don't win it all on the backs of your RB's anymore.

Where I tend to disagree is that all teams aren't built equally. Thus all salary caps won't look the same. You know what else nearly all champs have had in common over the last 20+ years? Elite QB play. Often hall-of-fame QB play. Aside from the anomalies such as Flacco, Foles and Dilfer that everyone mentions, nearly every other team has had unquestioned elite QB play. Those teams won't, and don't need to, overpay for RB's.

The goal is still winning it all. Only one does. The other 31 do not. So all of the teams without an elite QB need to do whatever they can to win with the roster they have. If we had Pat Mahomes I don't believe for a second we would have given a guy like Dalvin the money we did. But as it stands, and when the contract was given, Dalvin was the guy that was our best option to win football games. I don't love it. But you see every team without elite QB's overpay at other positions to land guys that they consider their best players. Dalvin is one of our best players, at the risk of starting our 1,639th debate on how good Kirk is.... :whistle:

I can assure you that if we ever land a hall-of-fame type player at the QB position, we'll never pay a RB over 5 million again.
Totally get where you’re coming from.

One point. We’re paying Cousins like a HOF quarterback, and we were doing it before Dalvin got his extension.

Also, teams with a great scheme and competent O-line can win the Super Bowl without a HOF quarterback OR a big-name RB. I give you the 2017 Philadelphia Eagles. And I could argue that Matt Stafford is not a HOF quarterback, although that could change if the Rams run it back to another SB title.

But yeah, I take your point.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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Kapp is killing this topic. I completely agree with him.
I think that we may be looking at the end of a number of Viking Vets after this year. I believe that they will be offered a cut or restructure alternative to remain. With the new regime and culture, I bet that these guys are all willing to sign a team friendly and player fair deal to remain. Question is whether the team keeps some of them or let's them walk.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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CharVike wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 12:18 am
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 12:11 am Could be the steal of the draft. Really. Feed him the ball and he will pound it threw. Almost wish they could trade Cook somehow and keep Mati and Ty.
Cook won't be traded. He's to good for that. Plus he's a gamer. He don't quite. He should be even better in a more spread attack. He gets a crack and he'll split it. Then it's off to the races. That's scary for a defense.
With his contract he probably couldn't be traded.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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IIsweet wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:54 am Kapp is killing this topic. I completely agree with him.
I think that we may be looking at the end of a number of Viking Vets after this year. I believe that they will be offered a cut or restructure alternative to remain. With the new regime and culture, I bet that these guys are all willing to sign a team friendly and player fair deal to remain. Question is whether the team keeps some of them or let's them walk.
You completely agree that if Cooks contract was voided and he said to help the team I will play for $4,000,001 you would say sorry, hit the bricks.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:06 am
IIsweet wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:54 am Kapp is killing this topic. I completely agree with him.
I think that we may be looking at the end of a number of Viking Vets after this year. I believe that they will be offered a cut or restructure alternative to remain. With the new regime and culture, I bet that these guys are all willing to sign a team friendly and player fair deal to remain. Question is whether the team keeps some of them or let's them walk.
You completely agree that if Cooks contract was voided and he said to help the team I will play for $4,000,001 you would say sorry, hit the bricks.
Dude, please don’t be so literal. The $4 million number is an approximation.

And by the way, somebody asked Chad Graff at The Athletic if the Vikings would be looking to trade Alexander Mattison this season before he becomes a free agent. I can’t copy and paste from the article, but he basically said the Vikings would NOT be looking to trade Mattison because they’ll get zero interest. He further said that NFL teams believe they can get backup-level running back play form undrafted free agents. That gives you an idea of how devalued the position has become. Graff talks to execs and scouts all the time, so I place a lot of credibility on what he says.

With Kwesi being a value and analytics guy, I have to believe he’s going to cut the RB budget over the next couple of years. I would not be surprised to see the Vikings trade or release Cook after this season, roll with Ty Chandler until his rookie deal runs out, then go with somebody else.

Mamas, don’t let your babies grow up to be running backs.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by VikingsVictorious »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:09 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:06 am
You completely agree that if Cooks contract was voided and he said to help the team I will play for $4,000,001 you would say sorry, hit the bricks.
Dude, please don’t be so literal. The $4 million number is an approximation.

And by the way, somebody asked Chad Graff at The Athletic if the Vikings would be looking to trade Alexander Mattison this season before he becomes a free agent. I can’t copy and paste from the article, but he basically said the Vikings would NOT be looking to trade Mattison because they’ll get zero interest. He further said that NFL teams believe they can get backup-level running back play form undrafted free agents. That gives you an idea of how devalued the position has become. Graff talks to execs and scouts all the time, so I place a lot of credibility on what he says.

With Kwesi being a value and analytics guy, I have to believe he’s going to cut the RB budget over the next couple of years. I would not be surprised to see the Vikings trade or release Cook after this season, roll with Ty Chandler until his rookie deal runs out, then go with somebody else.

Mamas, don’t let your babies grow up to be running backs.
So you finally admit that Cook is worth more than $4Million. That's all I wanted to hear you say.
I think Mattison is better than half the starting RBs in the league, but we wouldn't get better than a 4th round pick for him. I don't believe zero interest for a RB that puts up 150 yards combined most of the time he starts.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:20 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:09 pm
Dude, please don’t be so literal. The $4 million number is an approximation.

And by the way, somebody asked Chad Graff at The Athletic if the Vikings would be looking to trade Alexander Mattison this season before he becomes a free agent. I can’t copy and paste from the article, but he basically said the Vikings would NOT be looking to trade Mattison because they’ll get zero interest. He further said that NFL teams believe they can get backup-level running back play form undrafted free agents. That gives you an idea of how devalued the position has become. Graff talks to execs and scouts all the time, so I place a lot of credibility on what he says.

With Kwesi being a value and analytics guy, I have to believe he’s going to cut the RB budget over the next couple of years. I would not be surprised to see the Vikings trade or release Cook after this season, roll with Ty Chandler until his rookie deal runs out, then go with somebody else.

Mamas, don’t let your babies grow up to be running backs.
So you finally admit that Cook is worth more than $4Million. That's all I wanted to hear you say.
I think Mattison is better than half the starting RBs in the league, but we wouldn't get better than a 4th round pick for him. I don't believe zero interest for a RB that puts up 150 yards combined most of the time he starts.
Actually I’m not admitting that.

Look, Dalvin is a great player. I WILL heartily admit THAT. He’s exciting, he’s a gifted running back, he’s a leader, and he’s accountable. He’s everything you’d want in a running back. The problem is … he’s a running back. This philosophy of mine — not really mine, since it’s shared by 90% of the GMs in the NFL — has nothing to do with Dalvin Cook the player or person.

It has everything to do with the relative value of the position.

It’s like a hospital that has an extraordinarily gifted surgical nurse. This person may be able to do incredible things, things that the hospital would be worse off without. Might be the best nurse in the history of medicine.

But that nurse will never be paid as much as the surgeon. Or any other doctor on staff, for that matter. Nurses don’t have as much value to a hospital as doctors. Running backs don’t have as much value to modern NFL teams as other positions. It’s really that simple.

Also, go back and read beyond the “zero interest” part concerning Alex Mattison. I quoted Chad Graff as saying that NFL execs believe they can get backup-level RB talent in the UDFA market. Mattison is a backup. So what on earth makes you believe anyone would give up a 4th for him? Just because you believe he’s as good as a starter? Even THAT doesn’t make him worth a 4th. Remember Jerick McKinnon and his $6 million deal with San Francisco? Not gonna happen again. Teams have gotten smart. They aren’t gonna overpay for backup running backs who might be good enough to start. They’ll just draft somebody in the 5th round and pay him 5th round scale, knowing they’re likely to get the same production.

Mattison will likely play out his contract, hit the open market, and sign somewhere for $1 million to $2 million with a team that will give him a chance to start.

And I guarantee you — at some point, perhaps as soon as 2023, this idea of paying low for RBs, even the starter, is exactly what Kwesi and the Vikings will do.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by fiestavike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:20 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:09 pm
Dude, please don’t be so literal. The $4 million number is an approximation.

And by the way, somebody asked Chad Graff at The Athletic if the Vikings would be looking to trade Alexander Mattison this season before he becomes a free agent. I can’t copy and paste from the article, but he basically said the Vikings would NOT be looking to trade Mattison because they’ll get zero interest. He further said that NFL teams believe they can get backup-level running back play form undrafted free agents. That gives you an idea of how devalued the position has become. Graff talks to execs and scouts all the time, so I place a lot of credibility on what he says.

With Kwesi being a value and analytics guy, I have to believe he’s going to cut the RB budget over the next couple of years. I would not be surprised to see the Vikings trade or release Cook after this season, roll with Ty Chandler until his rookie deal runs out, then go with somebody else.

Mamas, don’t let your babies grow up to be running backs.
So you finally admit that Cook is worth more than $4Million. That's all I wanted to hear you say.
I think Mattison is better than half the starting RBs in the league, but we wouldn't get better than a 4th round pick for him. I don't believe zero interest for a RB that puts up 150 yards combined most of the time he starts.
Mattison MIGHT get a 7th in a trade if somebody's running back got injured in the preseason. Basically, he has no trade value.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:41 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:20 pm
So you finally admit that Cook is worth more than $4Million. That's all I wanted to hear you say.
I think Mattison is better than half the starting RBs in the league, but we wouldn't get better than a 4th round pick for him. I don't believe zero interest for a RB that puts up 150 yards combined most of the time he starts.
Actually I’m not admitting that.

Look, Dalvin is a great player. I WILL heartily admit THAT. He’s exciting, he’s a gifted running back, he’s a leader, and he’s accountable. He’s everything you’d want in a running back. The problem is … he’s a running back. This philosophy of mine — not really mine, since it’s shared by 90% of the GMs in the NFL — has nothing to do with Dalvin Cook the player or person.

It has everything to do with the relative value of the position.

It’s like a hospital that has an extraordinarily gifted surgical nurse. This person may be able to do incredible things, things that the hospital would be worse off without. Might be the best nurse in the history of medicine.

But that nurse will never be paid as much as the surgeon. Or any other doctor on staff, for that matter. Nurses don’t have as much value to a hospital as doctors. Running backs don’t have as much value to modern NFL teams as other positions. It’s really that simple.

Also, go back and read beyond the “zero interest” part concerning Alex Mattison. I quoted Chad Graff as saying that NFL execs believe they can get backup-level RB talent in the UDFA market. Mattison is a backup. So what on earth makes you believe anyone would give up a 4th for him? Just because you believe he’s as good as a starter? Even THAT doesn’t make him worth a 4th. Remember Jerick McKinnon and his $6 million deal with San Francisco? Not gonna happen again. Teams have gotten smart. They aren’t gonna overpay for backup running backs who might be good enough to start. They’ll just draft somebody in the 5th round and pay him 5th round scale, knowing they’re likely to get the same production.

Mattison will likely play out his contract, hit the open market, and sign somewhere for $1 million to $2 million with a team that will give him a chance to start.

And I guarantee you — at some point, perhaps as soon as 2023, this idea of paying low for RBs, even the starter, is exactly what Kwesi and the Vikings will do.
I bet Mattison gets more than 1-2 million. He's only a backup because of Cook. He's a starter on many NFL teams. We disagree. I know the RB position is being devalued, but not to the extent you think it is.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by fiestavike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:26 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:41 pm
Actually I’m not admitting that.

Look, Dalvin is a great player. I WILL heartily admit THAT. He’s exciting, he’s a gifted running back, he’s a leader, and he’s accountable. He’s everything you’d want in a running back. The problem is … he’s a running back. This philosophy of mine — not really mine, since it’s shared by 90% of the GMs in the NFL — has nothing to do with Dalvin Cook the player or person.

It has everything to do with the relative value of the position.

It’s like a hospital that has an extraordinarily gifted surgical nurse. This person may be able to do incredible things, things that the hospital would be worse off without. Might be the best nurse in the history of medicine.

But that nurse will never be paid as much as the surgeon. Or any other doctor on staff, for that matter. Nurses don’t have as much value to a hospital as doctors. Running backs don’t have as much value to modern NFL teams as other positions. It’s really that simple.

Also, go back and read beyond the “zero interest” part concerning Alex Mattison. I quoted Chad Graff as saying that NFL execs believe they can get backup-level RB talent in the UDFA market. Mattison is a backup. So what on earth makes you believe anyone would give up a 4th for him? Just because you believe he’s as good as a starter? Even THAT doesn’t make him worth a 4th. Remember Jerick McKinnon and his $6 million deal with San Francisco? Not gonna happen again. Teams have gotten smart. They aren’t gonna overpay for backup running backs who might be good enough to start. They’ll just draft somebody in the 5th round and pay him 5th round scale, knowing they’re likely to get the same production.

Mattison will likely play out his contract, hit the open market, and sign somewhere for $1 million to $2 million with a team that will give him a chance to start.

And I guarantee you — at some point, perhaps as soon as 2023, this idea of paying low for RBs, even the starter, is exactly what Kwesi and the Vikings will do.
I bet Mattison gets more than 1-2 million. He's only a backup because of Cook. He's a starter on many NFL teams. We disagree. I know the RB position is being devalued, but not to the extent you think it is.
He is a starter on 0 NFL teams.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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fiestavike wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:32 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:26 pm
I bet Mattison gets more than 1-2 million. He's only a backup because of Cook. He's a starter on many NFL teams. We disagree. I know the RB position is being devalued, but not to the extent you think it is.
He is a starter on 0 NFL teams.
Give me a break. You obviously know that I'm saying on many teams he would be the starter. If you couldn't grasp that I'm sorry.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:26 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:41 pm
Actually I’m not admitting that.

Look, Dalvin is a great player. I WILL heartily admit THAT. He’s exciting, he’s a gifted running back, he’s a leader, and he’s accountable. He’s everything you’d want in a running back. The problem is … he’s a running back. This philosophy of mine — not really mine, since it’s shared by 90% of the GMs in the NFL — has nothing to do with Dalvin Cook the player or person.

It has everything to do with the relative value of the position.

It’s like a hospital that has an extraordinarily gifted surgical nurse. This person may be able to do incredible things, things that the hospital would be worse off without. Might be the best nurse in the history of medicine.

But that nurse will never be paid as much as the surgeon. Or any other doctor on staff, for that matter. Nurses don’t have as much value to a hospital as doctors. Running backs don’t have as much value to modern NFL teams as other positions. It’s really that simple.

Also, go back and read beyond the “zero interest” part concerning Alex Mattison. I quoted Chad Graff as saying that NFL execs believe they can get backup-level RB talent in the UDFA market. Mattison is a backup. So what on earth makes you believe anyone would give up a 4th for him? Just because you believe he’s as good as a starter? Even THAT doesn’t make him worth a 4th. Remember Jerick McKinnon and his $6 million deal with San Francisco? Not gonna happen again. Teams have gotten smart. They aren’t gonna overpay for backup running backs who might be good enough to start. They’ll just draft somebody in the 5th round and pay him 5th round scale, knowing they’re likely to get the same production.

Mattison will likely play out his contract, hit the open market, and sign somewhere for $1 million to $2 million with a team that will give him a chance to start.

And I guarantee you — at some point, perhaps as soon as 2023, this idea of paying low for RBs, even the starter, is exactly what Kwesi and the Vikings will do.
I bet Mattison gets more than 1-2 million. He's only a backup because of Cook. He's a starter on many NFL teams. We disagree. I know the RB position is being devalued, but not to the extent you think it is.
Yes, it is to the extent I think it is.

Of the 38 running backs who will account for at least $2 million against their teams’ caps in 2022, only 8 of them played for playoff teams last year. Three of those played for the Raiders. Another was Ezekiel Elliott, who was terrible.

As for my $4 million number, 18 will count at least $4 million against the cap in ‘22. Exactly four of those made the playoffs, and only one (Joe Mixon) made it out of the first round.

The more I research this, the firmer I stand on my $4 million number.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by CharVike »

fiestavike wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:22 am
CharVike wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 12:18 am
Cook won't be traded. He's to good for that. Plus he's a gamer. He don't quite. He should be even better in a more spread attack. He gets a crack and he'll split it. Then it's off to the races. That's scary for a defense.
With his contract he probably couldn't be traded.
Teams do stupid things. The Giants drafted a RB with the 2nd pick. There were a few top QB prospects which you should never let go by even though they have a young unproven guy. We gave Cook the monster deal. But Zim was a play D and run the clock off HC. Early 70s. One year Zim ran Cook into the ground and still put him out there but he couldn't play long. He had nothing left.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by StanM »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:15 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:13 am
In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan, “There you go again.”

You said, and I quote: “I'm very glad we have him and I don't mind the amount of cap he is taking up.” That’s word for word. Nobody put words in your mouth. You’re OK with Cook’s salary, and I laugh at YOU. It’s insane.

Meanwhile, I challenge you to look up running back salaries for Super Bowl teams over the last 10 years. I’m guessing you won’t do it because 1) you never look anything up, and 2) you already know I’m right. You’d rather just sit there and make fun of a proven philosophy. Do you think I pulled that $4 million number out of thin air? It’s based on the top end of what actual Super Bowl contending teams pay their RB1.

In today’s NFL, overpaying for running backs, non-pass-rushing linebackers and safeties leads to teams not contending. The Vikings are doing it with all three, yet Vikings fans complain that we don’t sign positions of need in free agency. Gee, I wonder why? I’d rather overpay for Kirk Cousins than Dalvin Cook because Cousins plays a premium position and Cook does not.

Like I said, laugh all you want. But a year from now, you won’t be laughing. Given a choice between taking a $14 million cap hit for a running back or saving $8 million by cutting him, I’m pretty sure Kwesi will opt for the savings, especially if Cook continues his 62% availability rate.
My saying I personally am OK with Cooks salary isn't the same as advocating for paying RBs big money. I also posted which you ignored that maybe Cook is overpaid. The ONLY issue I have with your stand is the howlingly laughable part about paying no RB over $4million no matter how good they are. I gave the example of Cooks contract being voided and him being willing to accept $4million and one dollars. Do you really believe we should let him walk over that one dollar?
I will throw a monkey wrench in this debate about Cook. What if we got into a scenario where a Cook trade was used for trade equity to acquire out QB of the future? I like Dalvin, he can be a beast, but every player has a price. I am going to venture a guess that we would be just fine if we move away from the high priced star running back approach. Whatever direction the team takes it’s going to be an interesting ride over the next few years.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by fiestavike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:41 pm
fiestavike wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:32 pm

He is a starter on 0 NFL teams.
Give me a break. You obviously know that I'm saying on many teams he would be the starter. If you couldn't grasp that I'm sorry.
Yes, I know that is what you were saying.

I am telling you he would not be a starter on any of the teams in the NFL. He is a middling player.
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