Draft Day thread

[StanM]

For some reason while watching the draft last night my thoughts turned to the Herschel Walker trade. I remember his first game, I was installing a new furnace at our former home in St. Paul. Herschel ran out of his shoe and put up close to 150 yards but the bottom fell out, Dallas reaped the benefits.

I’m not a numbers of stats guy so I will defer those arguments. This team needs to strengthen its core and find long term solutions and I think that was their goal. Nobody knows how any draft pick will work out, we Vikings fans should know that first hand considering some of our recent busts. If they can pickup a handful of solid long term solutions between late first and end of third considering the current state of our depth I would be happy.

Being a Vikings fan since ‘61 has been a marathon, not a sprint. I have confidence in their approach and think it fits the circumstances this draft. After all, what’s the worst that could happen at this point after watching four Super Bowl losses and having my heart ripped out numerous times over the years?

[allday1991]

They moved down 20 spots, basically changed their 2nd rounder into a 1st, and added the 2nd pick of the 3rd round. On top of that, at the 32 spot they picked up a player that most people seem pretty happy with and was the 2nd best safety in the class according to PFF.

I get the feeling if the Vikings moved down to 28 instead of 32 and the 34 pick was 32 instead people would magically be happy with it. "He got an extra 1st rounder!"

Spin it all you want 20 spots in the first for 12 spots in the second, never knew it was harder to move up in the 2nd

[Cliff]

They moved down 20 spots, basically changed their 2nd rounder into a 1st, and added the 2nd pick of the 3rd round. On top of that, at the 32 spot they picked up a player that most people seem pretty happy with and was the 2nd best safety in the class according to PFF.

I get the feeling if the Vikings moved down to 28 instead of 32 and the 34 pick was 32 instead people would magically be happy with it. "He got an extra 1st rounder!"

Spin it all you want 20 spots in the first for 12 spots in the second, never knew it was harder to move up in the 2nd

Why do people ignore the 2nd overall pick in the 3rd round like it's garbage?

[makila]

Let's see what we do with the #34 today.

Not a fan of the trade. Want to see all parts of it play out though.

Ok with Cine where we picked him.

[allday1991]

Spin it all you want 20 spots in the first for 12 spots in the second, never knew it was harder to move up in the 2nd

Why do people ignore the 2nd overall pick in the 3rd round like it's garbage?

I thought our last gm proved quality > quantity especially in a draft where multiple scouts have said there is only 12-18 first round picks. So no I’m not overly happy about a 3rd in a weak draft class. When’s the last time we even hit on a 3rd? Hunter?

[psjordan]

They moved down 20 spots, basically changed their 2nd rounder into a 1st, and added the 2nd pick of the 3rd round. On top of that, at the 32 spot they picked up a player that most people seem pretty happy with and was the 2nd best safety in the class according to PFF.

I get the feeling if the Vikings moved down to 28 instead of 32 and the 34 pick was 32 instead people would magically be happy with it. "He got an extra 1st rounder!"

Spin it all you want 20 spots in the first for 12 spots in the second, never knew it was harder to move up in the 2nd

I think Cliff's point was we are all hung up on labels to some degree. DET's picks were the 2nd pick in the 2nd and the 2nd pick in the third. To some, those are similar if not identical to the last picks in the prior round.

So if the deal was labeled #12 and mid-second for "two firsts and a second", that would seem more palatable. Sure it's a spin, but not far from reality.

I'm not bowled over by the trade on the surface, but I also don't think it's "abandon all hope ye who enter here". I'm more of "meh, the new GM is trying out the system". It won't make us champs and it won't make us a 3-win team.

[Cliff]

Why do people ignore the 2nd overall pick in the 3rd round like it's garbage?

I thought our last gm proved quality > quantity especially in a draft where multiple scouts have said there is only 12-18 first round picks. So no I’m not overly happy about a 3rd in a weak draft class. When’s the last time we even hit on a 3rd? Hunter?

Regardless of the value you personally put on the pick it *is* part of the deal. They didn't just move back 20 in the first to move up 12 in the second. Had they done that it would have unquestionably been a bad trade.

Anyway, it's not like there's any guarantees anywhere in the draft. It's generally agreed that it takes about 3 years to properly grade a new player, unless they're obviously horrible, of course. So looking back starting in 2018:

2018
1st round: Mike Hughes
3rd round: (no pick)

2017
1st round: (no pick)
3rd round: Pat Elfein (Not great but is still starting in the league, has been injured a lot)

2016
1st round: Laquon Treadwell
3rd round: (no pick)

2015
1st round: Trae Waynes
3rd round: Hunter

2014:
1st round: Barr, Bridgewater
3rd round: Scott Crichton, Jerick Mckinnon

2013:
1st Round: Sharrif Floyd, Xavier Rhodes, Cordarrelle Patterson
3rd Round: (no pick)

Maybe half the reason we don't remember very many good 3rd round picks is because Slick Rick enjoyed trading them away.

Anyway, from 2013 to 2018 we've had eight 1st round picks and three 3rd rounders.

Of the first round picks, Barr is really the only one that panned out long term. Same with our 3rd rounder, Hunter. McKinnon was pretty good too but had (and has) injury issues.

Who knows, maybe our new GM will be better at making 3rd round picks.

[VikingsFan84]

I still can not believe Vikings did not get a 2023 first rounder in return to drop 20 spots!

Who would you all like at #34, #36, and #66 tonight?

[StpViking]

My issue with the draft so far, and quite frankly the whole off season is how familiar this all seems. A defensive coordinator bringing his son as an assistant. A GM that is piling up draft picks for the 3rd year in a row. An expensive free agent with a history of injury problems. Keeping overpaid veterans when you are trying to build a new team in your image.

A very negative view I understand, but I was really hoping for something different from the KAM and KOC era.

[Pep2Moss]

Nobody "thinks they know". We know this was a sh%^ trade value. If you don't get that, I can see why you don't understand the degree and volume of criticism coming Kwesi's way. You really miss the point if you think the critics of the trade "think they know" everything, but that's just a very condescending assumption.

Well certainly a lot of people are posting in "absolutes", as in "we absolutely got fleeced in this deal". To me, that is assuming you know we got fleeced. Nothing condescending about it. I based my comments off of the posts in this thread.

And I "get" the degree of carp being directed at our GM, I just don't agree with it.

Even stating "we got fleeced on VALUE" is basically stating you know the value of these picks. No one knows the value of these picks. This is not a game played with charts made up by Jimmy Johnson, this is a game played on the field. The ONLY valid perception of value is how the actual players selected play on the field. And that is a combination of being drafted by us AND being coached by us. It is in no way tied to some arbitrary chart.

And unfortunately for all of us impatient fans, the only way to judge value is to see how the players perform on the field, after being coached by our staff.

What is your definition of a good GM? One who follows JJ's charts and always gets "more points" than other GM's, or one who selects players that perform well on the field based on their traits and our ability to coach? Good grief, you have to wait for the latter.

The left 70 draft points on the table. That's a high 3. KAM even mentioned it. That's how they got fleeced. Has nothing to do the players, they simply did not get enough value for the 12, fact.

[VikingsVictorious]

For all I know, Cine may be great. His versatility and ability to play as LB in dime/nickel might allow the defense to camouflage what they are doing. Unlike previous years, I really haven't paid much attention this year. But in brief research, he looks nowhere near the player that Hamilton is, and I'm not sure he isn't a significant drop off from Dax Hill either.

What alarms me is the terrible value in the trade, and what alarms me even more is just the goofy millennial leadership group that our owners have put together with O'Conner and Kwesi. They are rather cringeworthy in their public facing personas.

He's not close to the player that Hamilton is. Hamilton is great at playing the ball and his range is off the charts. He's 6'4" so throwing over him is close to impossible. The NFL is all about passing and Cine is a box safety which hasn't been relevant in 20 + years. Plus he's weak in the box. We could have picked a dam good player at 12. There were two guys I liked at that spot before the draft and that was Hamilton and WR Olave who I thought would be the pick. Olave was gone and we got lucky that Hamilton dropped. The talent this year is weak overall. The only good trade was to move up. I think they were expecting CB Stingley to drop and once he was gone they had no idea what to do and just traded back and did a rethink. The value we got was worthless especially when you consider the players available at 12 in a draft with no depth. Just for a laugh it would be more enjoyable if they just forfeit or trade the rest of the picks for nothing and go home. Stop the game and dump Kwesi. That 12 pick was worth a fortune this year because of weak talent level and we got nothing. That whole value chart is out dated. That chart don't even consider the talent available. The value of No 1 pick this year isn't close to a year when an Andrew Luck type is available. Hopefully I'm wrong and this guy is a great pick.

I thought that by far Jordan Davis was the best player available followed by Williams and Hamilton. Those three were the next three picks.

[chicagopurple]

Well, this draft would make you think Spielman is behind the scenes trading down for no good reason, and passing up great OL talent. Nothing ever changes in MN

[Cliff]

Well certainly a lot of people are posting in "absolutes", as in "we absolutely got fleeced in this deal". To me, that is assuming you know we got fleeced. Nothing condescending about it. I based my comments off of the posts in this thread.

And I "get" the degree of carp being directed at our GM, I just don't agree with it.

Even stating "we got fleeced on VALUE" is basically stating you know the value of these picks. No one knows the value of these picks. This is not a game played with charts made up by Jimmy Johnson, this is a game played on the field. The ONLY valid perception of value is how the actual players selected play on the field. And that is a combination of being drafted by us AND being coached by us. It is in no way tied to some arbitrary chart.

And unfortunately for all of us impatient fans, the only way to judge value is to see how the players perform on the field, after being coached by our staff.

What is your definition of a good GM? One who follows JJ's charts and always gets "more points" than other GM's, or one who selects players that perform well on the field based on their traits and our ability to coach? Good grief, you have to wait for the latter.

The left 70 draft points on the table. That's a high 3. KAM even mentioned it. That's how they got fleeced. Has nothing to do the players, they simply did not get enough value for the 12, fact.

They left points off according to what? A draft point chart that Jimmy Johnson developed in the 70s?

Anyway, you can look at the Vikings draft choices in the 1st round vs 3rd that I posted above and see how much the points are really worth. What are eight first round draft picks worth compared to three 3rd rounders? The Vikings basically got Barr out of all of the 1st round "points" and Hunter from the 3rd round "points".

[VikingsFan84]

Well, this draft would make you think Spielman is behind the scenes trading down for no good reason, and passing up great OL talent. Nothing ever changes in MN

Even Speilman drafted great offensive line talent, he still can not make the offensive line work

[VikingsVictorious]

Nobody "thinks they know". We know this was a sh%^ trade value. If you don't get that, I can see why you don't understand the degree and volume of criticism coming Kwesi's way. You really miss the point if you think the critics of the trade "think they know" everything, but that's just a very condescending assumption.

Well certainly a lot of people are posting in "absolutes", as in "we absolutely got fleeced in this deal". To me, that is assuming you know we got fleeced. Nothing condescending about it. I based my comments off of the posts in this thread.

And I "get" the degree of carp being directed at our GM, I just don't agree with it.

Even stating "we got fleeced on VALUE" is basically stating you know the value of these picks. No one knows the value of these picks. This is not a game played with charts made up by Jimmy Johnson, this is a game played on the field. The ONLY valid perception of value is how the actual players selected play on the field. And that is a combination of being drafted by us AND being coached by us. It is in no way tied to some arbitrary chart.

And unfortunately for all of us impatient fans, the only way to judge value is to see how the players perform on the field, after being coached by our staff.

What is your definition of a good GM? One who follows JJ's charts and always gets "more points" than other GM's, or one who selects players that perform well on the field based on their traits and our ability to coach? Good grief, you have to wait for the latter.

Look at what other teams have got in return for moving down from picks in that range before. The Giants got the Bears pick 20 and their 5th round pick plus the Bears 22 FRP and the bears 22 4th round pick. All this for pick 11. They didn't give up another pick while the Vikings also gave up pick 46. We should have at least been able to keep our 2nd round pick.