Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

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Cliff
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by Cliff »

CharVike wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:47 amBasically your conclusion is if you have a top 10 salaried QB you will never make the playoffs or compete. Let's see for 2021. Please don't look in the future I'm talking right now.
Ranking the NFL's biggest contracts for 2021 as per NFL .com
Mahomes - 45 million - Playoffs
Allen - 43 million - Playoffs
Prescott - 40 million - Playoffs.
Watson - 39 million - Didn't play team sucks as it did with him last year. 4 wins both season. He is a loser. No elevation from him.
Wilson - 35 million - No playoffs. Yes he won a Super Bowl. Of course the LOB never gets any credit. This year nothing.
Rodgers - 33.5 million - Top seeded team. He's a bargain.
Goff - 33.5 million - Not much. His teams sucks which doesn't help but the haters will say it's all his fault.
Cousins - 33 million - Dogs. Haters will say he sucks on a great core team. The lovers will say he's good but the core team sucks.
Wentz - 32 million - Chockers. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Ryan - 30 million - Joke
Tannehill - 29.5 - Playoffs. Very good all around team. No major weaknesses.

Top 11 QB salary for 2021 and 5 of the kings made the playoffs. The others are worthless or there core team sucked. Maybe it was a combination. The salary number is from NFL .com. That can change in 2 seconds I guess.

Somehow the Chiefs were able to put a dam good team together with the highest paid QB.
***Note, I don't care how much the player will make this year total, I'm looking at hit against the cap, that's all that matters as far as impacting the team.

First, I'd say that you're looking at 2021 whereas if we're talking "right now" that's 2022 and Kirk is the 3rd highest cap hit in the NFL behind Matt Ryan and Aaron Rodgers.

My argument isn't that paying league-high money for a QB is a bad thing. My argument is paying that much for a middle-tier QB is. The better the QB the more you can afford to pay him because he doesn't need as strong of a supporting cast. As you continue down the list of QBs you start to need more and more freed up money to build a better team around them.

By the time you get to the teens (which Kirk falls into in basically every ranking outside of the Vikings Message Board) you need to start having money to pay that supporting cast. That's why after the 9 highest paid players in the league, which are all QBs, you start to see other positions pop up as the highest paid. Because most teams would rather pay a player that's actually top tier at other important positions, like T.J. Watt, than pay a player that's the 13th best player at their position the 3rd most money in the league.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by CharVike »

Cliff wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:11 pm
CharVike wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:47 amBasically your conclusion is if you have a top 10 salaried QB you will never make the playoffs or compete. Let's see for 2021. Please don't look in the future I'm talking right now.
Ranking the NFL's biggest contracts for 2021 as per NFL .com
Mahomes - 45 million - Playoffs
Allen - 43 million - Playoffs
Prescott - 40 million - Playoffs.
Watson - 39 million - Didn't play team sucks as it did with him last year. 4 wins both season. He is a loser. No elevation from him.
Wilson - 35 million - No playoffs. Yes he won a Super Bowl. Of course the LOB never gets any credit. This year nothing.
Rodgers - 33.5 million - Top seeded team. He's a bargain.
Goff - 33.5 million - Not much. His teams sucks which doesn't help but the haters will say it's all his fault.
Cousins - 33 million - Dogs. Haters will say he sucks on a great core team. The lovers will say he's good but the core team sucks.
Wentz - 32 million - Chockers. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Ryan - 30 million - Joke
Tannehill - 29.5 - Playoffs. Very good all around team. No major weaknesses.

Top 11 QB salary for 2021 and 5 of the kings made the playoffs. The others are worthless or there core team sucked. Maybe it was a combination. The salary number is from NFL .com. That can change in 2 seconds I guess.

Somehow the Chiefs were able to put a dam good team together with the highest paid QB.
***Note, I don't care how much the player will make this year total, I'm looking at hit against the cap, that's all that matters as far as impacting the team.

First, I'd say that you're looking at 2021 whereas if we're talking "right now" that's 2022 and Kirk is the 3rd highest cap hit in the NFL behind Matt Ryan and Aaron Rodgers.

My argument isn't that paying league-high money for a QB is a bad thing. My argument is paying that much for a middle-tier QB is. The better the QB the more you can afford to pay him because he doesn't need as strong of a supporting cast. As you continue down the list of QBs you start to need more and more freed up money to build a better team around them.

By the time you get to the teens (which Kirk falls into in basically every ranking outside of the Vikings Message Board) you need to start having money to pay that supporting cast. That's why after the 9 highest paid players in the league, which are all QBs, you start to see other positions pop up as the highest paid. Because most teams would rather pay a player that's actually top tier at other important positions, like T.J. Watt, than pay a player that's the 13th best player at their position the 3rd most money in the league.
I'm staying out of the CAP stuff. I have no idea and I can't find a sight that provide the information. NFL .com is wrong that's for sure.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by StumpHunter »

CharVike wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:05 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:10 am
I will let Cliff correct you on your interpretation of what he said, but none of your numbers are correct.
The top 10 highest paid QB this year in order:
Russel Wilson
Kirk Cousins
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Jimmy G.
Big Ben
Derek Carr
Matt Stafford
Dak Prescott
Deshaun Watson

You were going off of average per year, which can be relevant when comparing over the same time frame, but becomes less so when comparing what Mahomes is averaging from 2022-2031 to what Cousins is making from 2021-2022.

Neither Allen or Mahomes have started costing their teams significant cap and Prescott is only making 8% of the cap at 17 million this year.
I don't know the CAP. The numbers where from NFL .COM so they put out bogus BS numbers. I have no idea the exact value of any of the contracts. The NFL don't. You are the only one. Let's say Cousins makes 100 million. Yes we can't keep that and that is why Speilman has been fired. There are thousands of sights with salary/ cap whatever it is none are correct. Many here keep saying 45 million. You make up a number. I make up a number. The number changes every second. Next year Dak won't be 40 million it will be 2 million. This game sucks. It's zero fun and not interesting at all. Boring. What I posted sucks and is wrong. I only copied and it's wrong. I have no idea what these guys are making. I don't even care. They can kick Cousins out the door and it wouldn't bother me. Insert the next stiff and go from there. But if anyone thinks we can insert some bum and make the Super Bowl you are dead wrong. If anyone thinks a QB can take the worse defense we ever had to the Super Bowl you are dead wrong.
They didn't put the incorrect numbers out there, you just interpreted them wrong.

The cap isn't really all that complicated and what players are making doesn't usually change. How much they count against the cap in an individual year can, but over the life of the contract, unless the player is cut, they will make what they signed the contract for.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by CharVike »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:33 pm
CharVike wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:05 pm
I don't know the CAP. The numbers where from NFL .COM so they put out bogus BS numbers. I have no idea the exact value of any of the contracts. The NFL don't. You are the only one. Let's say Cousins makes 100 million. Yes we can't keep that and that is why Speilman has been fired. There are thousands of sights with salary/ cap whatever it is none are correct. Many here keep saying 45 million. You make up a number. I make up a number. The number changes every second. Next year Dak won't be 40 million it will be 2 million. This game sucks. It's zero fun and not interesting at all. Boring. What I posted sucks and is wrong. I only copied and it's wrong. I have no idea what these guys are making. I don't even care. They can kick Cousins out the door and it wouldn't bother me. Insert the next stiff and go from there. But if anyone thinks we can insert some bum and make the Super Bowl you are dead wrong. If anyone thinks a QB can take the worse defense we ever had to the Super Bowl you are dead wrong.
They didn't put the incorrect numbers out there, you just interpreted them wrong.

The cap isn't really all that complicated and what players are making doesn't usually change. How much they count against the cap in an individual year can, but over the life of the contract, unless the player is cut, they will make what they signed the contract for.
Your correct I did interpret it wrong. I'm sorry I got involved with this post because the CAP stuff whatever number that is and the salary stuff whatever that is aren't connected and can be spread out, grouped, collated or whatever through out some time frame which I assume is length of contract. But I assume the contract can change. Maybe it can't unless it's before Nov 1 or some other BS like that. You just posted this "doesn't usually change" see once the word usually is involved things get out of control for me. Usually is never ending. Bottom line there is no closure on any of these numbers unless you understand the finite details of the contract, league rules ect... If someone asked me what player had the biggest CAP hit in 2021 I would have no idea. My guess would be a QB perhaps Mahomes because he signed a recent deal. It looks like he makes nothing in QB terms. I assume it's pushed out X number of years down the road for later consideration at which time he may have a new deal. It's confusing for me. I'm keeping a distance from this CAP and salary stuff. Once pushing stuff out it's a meaningless number. Just keep pushing for length of contract. Then just change the length of contract I guess and push some more. That's why teams have CAPologitist and staff to handle this stuff. I have no desire to learn everything in detail. I would like a number for the current year or league year I should say.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by Thaumaturgist »

SNIP
CharVike wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:38 pm Your correct I did interpret it wrong. I'm sorry I got involved with this post because the CAP stuff whatever number that is and the salary stuff whatever that is aren't connected and can be spread out, grouped, collated or whatever through out some time frame which I assume is length of contract.
SNIP

I think this site is pretty accurate?
Over The CAP
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by VikingsVictorious »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:10 am
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:48 am
In 2020, Rily Reiff gave up the 9th (out of 45) fewest pressures of any tackle with 800+ pass blocking snaps. He was tied for 4th in fewest sacks given up.

Yet when the Vikings cut him, with absolutely nothing to replace him with, not one Vikings' fan thought it was a bad move. Statistically a top 10 tackle who was the best Vikings LT since Bryant McKinnie, and the VIkings cut him knowing that they would take an immediate step back at that position, which they absolutely did. The tackles replacing Reiff, Darrisaw and Hill, combined for over twice the pressures given up and 7 more sacks.

Knowing that, does anyone regret cutting Reiff? Did losing an above average, overpaid LT actually cost us anything? Or in the long run did it end up making the Vikings better?

Now QB isn't the same as LT. It is admittedly harder to find a good one, but it also is a much more important position to be better at than LT, and overpaying for a QB costs a lot more than overpaying for a LT. So while the risk is greater moving on from an above average QB, the reward is also much greater.

Moving on is the right move if you want to win a SB in the next decade. It is not if you are content with hovering around .500 each year.
For what it's worth, I regret it. In fact, I didn't want them to let him go, and I said so on this board. LT wasn't a problem, and I didn't see any reason to move on. Not only that, he was a respected leader in the locker room. But a LOT of people came at me with "we're paying big money for an average tackle." Hmmmm. Paying big money for average. Where have we heard that before?

Let me just say this. Riley Reiff was a far better restructure candidate than Kirk Cousins was in 2019.
We absolutely should have Kept Reiff.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by CharVike »

Thaumaturgist wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:59 pm SNIP
CharVike wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:38 pm Your correct I did interpret it wrong. I'm sorry I got involved with this post because the CAP stuff whatever number that is and the salary stuff whatever that is aren't connected and can be spread out, grouped, collated or whatever through out some time frame which I assume is length of contract.
SNIP

I think this site is pretty accurate?
Over The CAP
Thanks for the link. This is my CAP number verify going forward.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by CharVike »

For 2022 based on the site over the cap Cousins is No 3 at 45 million. We will need to do something. I'd prefer we keep him and pick Kenny Pickett, Pittsburgh as our future QB. Of course that will never happen but the guy is a dam good passer and I can dream for one last shot. 40 touchdowns with only 7 interceptions and 4,066 passing yards. The NFL is all about passing. They beg teams to do it and make it easier with rule changes. Staying in the pocket is safer than ever and even Brady mentions that. It will be the complete opposite and we will look for the top rushing QB who needs to learn passing from the ground up. Like the old wish bone guys or veer option stiffs. By the time those guys learn how to pass at an NFL level their contract will be up and they will cost a fortune and 5 years will be flushed down the toilet training a guy. Let college train them for nothing. That's a bad cycle and probably won't end quickly.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by CharVike »

Looks like the Cowboys are in the same spot. Dak had 17mill CAP hit for 2021 and it was a tremendous accomplishment to win that tough NFC east division. Any good team beat them. Sounds like our loser. Just got beat at home and couldn't score much and he turned it over. Next year his CAP hit is 31mill so they need to get out of that and on to a cheaper option so they are dangerous. Maybe they will give us a 1st round pick for one of our cheap young guns on the roster. We have 3 of them which will be a cheaper contract. Won't be able to score much but that don't matter I guess. The 49ers are the team doing it right. They win in the trenches. They got after Dak and like all QBs that I have ever seen when the heat is coming things get tougher. Plus there OL gave Jimmy some time. He was standing there clean looking around and guys were running full routes. But he missed some wide open guys. Having a D that gave up 17 on the road helped. Dak might be on the market this off season. They can go with what's his name that shredded Zim's D on the road. He's cheaper than Dak. Too many penalties on the Dallas OL. That never helps. Hurt our team this year although that's never mention. Holder Ohoh lead the league with a total of 13. That's a Kubsteak Speilman star. Those 1st or 2nd or 3rd and 20+ yards don't help. Hard to convert. Hurts the conversion rate. Could be many QBs on the market. That will never happen regardless of what the media says. The old man who is non moveable showed again how it's done. Give me a passer like that over these dual threat do nothing guys like Jullia Hurts.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by CharVike »

CharVike wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:37 am Looks like the Cowboys are in the same spot. Dak had 17mill CAP hit for 2021 and it was a tremendous accomplishment to win that tough NFC east division. Any good team beat them. Sounds like our loser. Just got beat at home and couldn't score much and he turned it over. Next year his CAP hit is 31mill so they need to get out of that and on to a cheaper option so they are dangerous. Maybe they will give us a 1st round pick for one of our cheap young guns on the roster. We have 3 of them which will be a cheaper contract. Won't be able to score much but that don't matter I guess. The 49ers are the team doing it right. They win in the trenches. They got after Dak and like all QBs that I have ever seen when the heat is coming things get tougher. Plus there OL gave Jimmy some time. He was standing there clean looking around and guys were running full routes. But he missed some wide open guys. Having a D that gave up 17 on the road helped. Dak might be on the market this off season. They can go with what's his name that shredded Zim's D on the road. He's cheaper than Dak. Too many penalties on the Dallas OL. That never helps. Hurt our team this year although that's never mention. Holder Ohoh lead the league with a total of 13. That's a Kubsteak Speilman star. Those 1st or 2nd or 3rd and 20+ yards don't help. Hard to convert. Hurts the conversion rate. Could be many QBs on the market. That will never happen regardless of what the media says. The old man who is non moveable showed again how it's done. Give me a passer like that over these dual threat do nothing guys like Jullia Hurts.
That's why I want to see Peters as our GM but he isn't on the media radar so the Wils don't see him
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Just to show how dangerous we can be Cincinnati is going to the Super Bowl. If not for a phantom fumble called on Cook we beat them to start this prior season. We can be very dangerous.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by 808vikingsfan »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:18 pm Just to show how dangerous we can be Cincinnati is going to the Super Bowl. If not for a phantom fumble called on Cook we beat them to start this prior season. We can be very dangerous.


Just to show how bad the Vikings were. They lost to a winless Lions team. The Vikings were pathetic in 2021.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by VikingsVictorious »

808vikingsfan wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:45 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:18 pm Just to show how dangerous we can be Cincinnati is going to the Super Bowl. If not for a phantom fumble called on Cook we beat them to start this prior season. We can be very dangerous.


Just to show how bad the Vikings were. They lost to a winless Lions team. The Vikings were pathetic in 2021.
You can be as negative as you like. Have fun if that floats your boat, but we are dangerous.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:22 pm
808vikingsfan wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:45 pm



Just to show how bad the Vikings were. They lost to a winless Lions team. The Vikings were pathetic in 2021.
You can be as negative as you like. Have fun if that floats your boat, but we are dangerous.
That is why the GM was fired, because he put together such a dangerous team.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by 808vikingsfan »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:22 pm
808vikingsfan wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:45 pm



Just to show how bad the Vikings were. They lost to a winless Lions team. The Vikings were pathetic in 2021.
You can be as negative as you like. Have fun if that floats your boat, but we are dangerous.
Losing 50% of the time over the past 4 years is not fun.
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