Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

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StumpHunter
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by StumpHunter »

CharVike wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:00 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:56 am
Not so much my opinion but what the facts of what has happened on the field over the season. Yours, mine, anyone's opinion means nothing compared to that.
Cousins is top 10 easy in all the important stats.
Wrong. He is below average in the most important one, and 15th in QBR.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

CharVike wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:00 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:56 am
Not so much my opinion but what the facts of what has happened on the field over the season. Yours, mine, anyone's opinion means nothing compared to that.
Cousins is top 10 easy in all the important stats. That's not average. Every QB needs something around them. We can't win and that's a team deal. One player can help but no more than that. Teams pound the ball down our D's throat. You can't win like that. And that's just the start.
Ah, but that really depends on which stats you believe are important.

Counting stats, such as yards, touchdowns and interceptions, sure … he’s top 10.

Passer rating — which was invented nearly 50 years ago and is considered outdated by many — he’s top 10.

But as you move up the ladder to the more modern metrics — ANY/A (Adjusted Net Yards per Attempt), IQR (Independent Quarterback Rating), EPA (Expected Points Added per Play) and Total QBR, Cousins begins to fall down the list. These more advanced metrics attempt to account for things like down, distance, field location, throwaways, drops, quarterback running, sacks, quality of opponent, garbage time and a whole host of other factors. The idea is to get a more complete picture of how a quarterback contributes to the success of his team.

When we look at a quarterback like Cousins, all this begins to make sense in a general way. What’s the biggest complaint about Cousins? That he piles up stats but can’t deliver in the big moments. Advanced metrics paint a crystal-clear picture of this. They don’t show him as a BAD quarterback. But he’s middle of the pack every year. That’s fine if you’re paying him like a middle-of-the-pack quarterback. But with a cap hit of $35 million this year and $45 million next year, we’re paying him like an elite quarterback.

Next year, the Vikings will allocate about 20% of their cap to Cousins if he’s still on the team. It’s tough to field quality at all the other positions when you do that, not to mention depth.

For me, this has little to do with whether I like Kirk Cousins as a quarterback. He’s good. But I don’t like him as a $45 million quarterback.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by halfgiz »

The Vikings demise is Rick & Zimmer...Rick is unable to pick a QB. How many Tries?
And we still have no offensive line. After how many years.
Another problem is Zimmer is still coaching in the 80’s.
I think that after the 2017 season 13-3, They should have signed Keenum to a 1-2 year deal as a bridge and drafted a QB of the future...WAIT we all know Rick can’t pick QB’s, so that ended that theory.
Zimmer also didn’t like Keenum because he took chances...To that...Grow some balls Zimmer.

Cousins we paid him way to much money and couldn’t give him a supporting cast. “Rick”

My hope for the new year is we find and offensive minded coach to build off of what we have.
And a GM that has enough common sense to find us a QB.

Defense is currently a hot mess and that all started the year most of our cornerbacks bailed on Zimmer. A lot going on behind the scenes.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by TSonn »

So... Teddy Bridgewater?
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by CharVike »

TSonn wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:23 pm So... Teddy Bridgewater?
Why not I'm sure there are many that feel he's much better than Cousins.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by halfgiz »

I’m just hoping we can find an Offensive coordinator and line coach that can figure out our offensive problems.
Cousins salary was of his own demise. And Rick was stupid enough to pay him.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by VikingsVictorious »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:08 pm
CharVike wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:00 pm
Cousins is top 10 easy in all the important stats.
Wrong. He is below average in the most important one, and 15th in QBR.
Funny how you ignore every stat you don't like and find one you do. If the stats you ignore showed Cousins in a bad light you would be the first person to point them out. You know it and everyone else does. Keep digging deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:28 am
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:08 pm

Wrong. He is below average in the most important one, and 15th in QBR.
Funny how you ignore every stat you don't like and find one you do. If the stats you ignore showed Cousins in a bad light you would be the first person to point them out. You know it and everyone else does. Keep digging deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
The irony is I don't have to dig deep at all, just point to his record, while others need to bend over backwards to make excuses for why he continues to fail, 10 years into his career.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by Cliff »

Wanting to keep Cousins feels some kind of Vikings-fan-based PTSD. We know just how bad the QB situation can be so when we have one that is somewhere between 10th-15th best in the league I understand the urge to want to hold on. He's not the answer though. Even if you think he *could* be with the right team around him that team can't be put around him when his cap hit will be the 3rd highest in the league.

Just because we know how bad it can be doesn't mean Cousins (and his massive contract) is the answer.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by StumpHunter »

Cliff wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:22 am Wanting to keep Cousins feels some kind of Vikings-fan-based PTSD. We know just how bad the QB situation can be so when we have one that is somewhere between 10th-15th best in the league I understand the urge to want to hold on. He's not the answer though. Even if you think he *could* be with the right team around him that team can't be put around him when his cap hit will be the 3rd highest in the league.

Just because we know how bad it can be doesn't mean Cousins (and his massive contract) is the answer.
In 2020, Rily Reiff gave up the 9th (out of 45) fewest pressures of any tackle with 800+ pass blocking snaps. He was tied for 4th in fewest sacks given up.

Yet when the Vikings cut him, with absolutely nothing to replace him with, not one Vikings' fan thought it was a bad move. Statistically a top 10 tackle who was the best Vikings LT since Bryant McKinnie, and the VIkings cut him knowing that they would take an immediate step back at that position, which they absolutely did. The tackles replacing Reiff, Darrisaw and Hill, combined for over twice the pressures given up and 7 more sacks.

Knowing that, does anyone regret cutting Reiff? Did losing an above average, overpaid LT actually cost us anything? Or in the long run did it end up making the Vikings better?

Now QB isn't the same as LT. It is admittedly harder to find a good one, but it also is a much more important position to be better at than LT, and overpaying for a QB costs a lot more than overpaying for a LT. So while the risk is greater moving on from an above average QB, the reward is also much greater.

Moving on is the right move if you want to win a SB in the next decade. It is not if you are content with hovering around .500 each year.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:48 am
Cliff wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:22 am Wanting to keep Cousins feels some kind of Vikings-fan-based PTSD. We know just how bad the QB situation can be so when we have one that is somewhere between 10th-15th best in the league I understand the urge to want to hold on. He's not the answer though. Even if you think he *could* be with the right team around him that team can't be put around him when his cap hit will be the 3rd highest in the league.

Just because we know how bad it can be doesn't mean Cousins (and his massive contract) is the answer.
In 2020, Rily Reiff gave up the 9th (out of 45) fewest pressures of any tackle with 800+ pass blocking snaps. He was tied for 4th in fewest sacks given up.

Yet when the Vikings cut him, with absolutely nothing to replace him with, not one Vikings' fan thought it was a bad move. Statistically a top 10 tackle who was the best Vikings LT since Bryant McKinnie, and the VIkings cut him knowing that they would take an immediate step back at that position, which they absolutely did. The tackles replacing Reiff, Darrisaw and Hill, combined for over twice the pressures given up and 7 more sacks.

Knowing that, does anyone regret cutting Reiff? Did losing an above average, overpaid LT actually cost us anything? Or in the long run did it end up making the Vikings better?

Now QB isn't the same as LT. It is admittedly harder to find a good one, but it also is a much more important position to be better at than LT, and overpaying for a QB costs a lot more than overpaying for a LT. So while the risk is greater moving on from an above average QB, the reward is also much greater.

Moving on is the right move if you want to win a SB in the next decade. It is not if you are content with hovering around .500 each year.
For what it's worth, I regret it. In fact, I didn't want them to let him go, and I said so on this board. LT wasn't a problem, and I didn't see any reason to move on. Not only that, he was a respected leader in the locker room. But a LOT of people came at me with "we're paying big money for an average tackle." Hmmmm. Paying big money for average. Where have we heard that before?

Let me just say this. Riley Reiff was a far better restructure candidate than Kirk Cousins was in 2019.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by CharVike »

Cliff wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:22 am Wanting to keep Cousins feels some kind of Vikings-fan-based PTSD. We know just how bad the QB situation can be so when we have one that is somewhere between 10th-15th best in the league I understand the urge to want to hold on. He's not the answer though. Even if you think he *could* be with the right team around him that team can't be put around him when his cap hit will be the 3rd highest in the league.

Just because we know how bad it can be doesn't mean Cousins (and his massive contract) is the answer.
Basically your conclusion is if you have a top 10 salaried QB you will never make the playoffs or compete. Let's see for 2021. Please don't look in the future I'm talking right now.
Ranking the NFL's biggest contracts for 2021 as per NFL .com
Mahomes - 45 million - Playoffs
Allen - 43 million - Playoffs
Prescott - 40 million - Playoffs.
Watson - 39 million - Didn't play team sucks as it did with him last year. 4 wins both season. He is a loser. No elevation from him.
Wilson - 35 million - No playoffs. Yes he won a Super Bowl. Of course the LOB never gets any credit. This year nothing.
Rodgers - 33.5 million - Top seeded team. He's a bargain.
Goff - 33.5 million - Not much. His teams sucks which doesn't help but the haters will say it's all his fault.
Cousins - 33 million - Dogs. Haters will say he sucks on a great core team. The lovers will say he's good but the core team sucks.
Wentz - 32 million - Chockers. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Ryan - 30 million - Joke
Tannehill - 29.5 - Playoffs. Very good all around team. No major weaknesses.

Top 11 QB salary for 2021 and 5 of the kings made the playoffs. The others are worthless or there core team sucked. Maybe it was a combination. The salary number is from NFL .com. That can change in 2 seconds I guess.

Somehow the Chiefs were able to put a dam good team together with the highest paid QB.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by CharVike »

CharVike wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:47 am
Cliff wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:22 am Wanting to keep Cousins feels some kind of Vikings-fan-based PTSD. We know just how bad the QB situation can be so when we have one that is somewhere between 10th-15th best in the league I understand the urge to want to hold on. He's not the answer though. Even if you think he *could* be with the right team around him that team can't be put around him when his cap hit will be the 3rd highest in the league.

Just because we know how bad it can be doesn't mean Cousins (and his massive contract) is the answer.
Basically your conclusion is if you have a top 10 salaried QB you will never make the playoffs or compete. Let's see for 2021. Please don't look in the future I'm talking right now.
Ranking the NFL's biggest contracts for 2021 as per NFL .com
Mahomes - 45 million - Playoffs
Allen - 43 million - Playoffs
Prescott - 40 million - Playoffs.
Watson - 39 million - Didn't play team sucks as it did with him last year. 4 wins both season. He is a loser. No elevation from him.
Wilson - 35 million - No playoffs. Yes he won a Super Bowl. Of course the LOB never gets any credit. This year nothing.
Rodgers - 33.5 million - Top seeded team. He's a bargain.
Goff - 33.5 million - Not much. His teams sucks which doesn't help but the haters will say it's all his fault.
Cousins - 33 million - Dogs. Haters will say he sucks on a great core team. The lovers will say he's good but the core team sucks.
Wentz - 32 million - Chockers. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Ryan - 30 million - Joke
Tannehill - 29.5 - Playoffs. Very good all around team. No major weaknesses.

Top 11 QB salary for 2021 and 5 of the kings made the playoffs. The others are worthless or there core team sucked. Maybe it was a combination. The salary number is from NFL .com. That can change in 2 seconds I guess.

Somehow the Chiefs were able to put a dam good team together with the highest paid QB.
At the end of the day you need a good QB. Unless it's a rookie deal a good QB isn't cheap. I don't have an answer. You are correct with the fact that I have seen all the QBs since 1970. Trust me the season sucks when you have nothing at QB. In 1970 we probably had our greatest defense ever and as a young kid I saw this stiff we had a QB and said we don't have a chance. Guess what. Dumped 1st round with the Doctor at QB. You need a QB. And the supply is very limited and the demand is endless. Many feel Cousins isn't the guy and if I had to bet I would say you are right. IMO we don't have a guy on our roster who is the guy. Where do we go from here? Punt? What's that. Give a couple 1st round picks to a team to take Cousins as many feel he has zero value at his current salary. Ride it out one more year and then insert Mond or some other unknown for 5 or so years and hope it works out?
Last edited by CharVike on Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by StumpHunter »

CharVike wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:47 am
Cliff wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:22 am Wanting to keep Cousins feels some kind of Vikings-fan-based PTSD. We know just how bad the QB situation can be so when we have one that is somewhere between 10th-15th best in the league I understand the urge to want to hold on. He's not the answer though. Even if you think he *could* be with the right team around him that team can't be put around him when his cap hit will be the 3rd highest in the league.

Just because we know how bad it can be doesn't mean Cousins (and his massive contract) is the answer.
Basically your conclusion is if you have a top 10 salaried QB you will never make the playoffs or compete. Let's see for 2021. Please don't look in the future I'm talking right now.
Ranking the NFL's biggest contracts for 2021 as per NFL .com
Mahomes - 45 million - Playoffs
Allen - 43 million - Playoffs
Prescott - 40 million - Playoffs.
Watson - 39 million - Didn't play team sucks as it did with him last year. 4 wins both season. He is a loser. No elevation from him.
Wilson - 35 million - No playoffs. Yes he won a Super Bowl. Of course the LOB never gets any credit. This year nothing.
Rodgers - 33.5 million - Top seeded team. He's a bargain.
Goff - 33.5 million - Not much. His teams sucks which doesn't help but the haters will say it's all his fault.
Cousins - 33 million - Dogs. Haters will say he sucks on a great core team. The lovers will say he's good but the core team sucks.
Wentz - 32 million - Chockers. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Ryan - 30 million - Joke
Tannehill - 29.5 - Playoffs. Very good all around team. No major weaknesses.

Top 11 QB salary for 2021 and 5 of the kings made the playoffs. The others are worthless or there core team sucked. Maybe it was a combination. The salary number is from NFL .com. That can change in 2 seconds I guess.

Somehow the Chiefs were able to put a dam good team together with the highest paid QB.
I will let Cliff correct you on your interpretation of what he said, but none of your numbers are correct.
The top 10 highest paid QB this year in order:
Russel Wilson
Kirk Cousins
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Jimmy G.
Big Ben
Derek Carr
Matt Stafford
Dak Prescott
Deshaun Watson

You were going off of average per year, which can be relevant when comparing over the same time frame, but becomes less so when comparing what Mahomes is averaging from 2022-2031 to what Cousins is making from 2021-2022.

Neither Allen or Mahomes have started costing their teams significant cap and Prescott is only making 8% of the cap at 17 million this year.
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Re: Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

Post by CharVike »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:10 am
CharVike wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:47 am
Basically your conclusion is if you have a top 10 salaried QB you will never make the playoffs or compete. Let's see for 2021. Please don't look in the future I'm talking right now.
Ranking the NFL's biggest contracts for 2021 as per NFL .com
Mahomes - 45 million - Playoffs
Allen - 43 million - Playoffs
Prescott - 40 million - Playoffs.
Watson - 39 million - Didn't play team sucks as it did with him last year. 4 wins both season. He is a loser. No elevation from him.
Wilson - 35 million - No playoffs. Yes he won a Super Bowl. Of course the LOB never gets any credit. This year nothing.
Rodgers - 33.5 million - Top seeded team. He's a bargain.
Goff - 33.5 million - Not much. His teams sucks which doesn't help but the haters will say it's all his fault.
Cousins - 33 million - Dogs. Haters will say he sucks on a great core team. The lovers will say he's good but the core team sucks.
Wentz - 32 million - Chockers. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Ryan - 30 million - Joke
Tannehill - 29.5 - Playoffs. Very good all around team. No major weaknesses.

Top 11 QB salary for 2021 and 5 of the kings made the playoffs. The others are worthless or there core team sucked. Maybe it was a combination. The salary number is from NFL .com. That can change in 2 seconds I guess.

Somehow the Chiefs were able to put a dam good team together with the highest paid QB.
I will let Cliff correct you on your interpretation of what he said, but none of your numbers are correct.
The top 10 highest paid QB this year in order:
Russel Wilson
Kirk Cousins
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Jimmy G.
Big Ben
Derek Carr
Matt Stafford
Dak Prescott
Deshaun Watson

You were going off of average per year, which can be relevant when comparing over the same time frame, but becomes less so when comparing what Mahomes is averaging from 2022-2031 to what Cousins is making from 2021-2022.

Neither Allen or Mahomes have started costing their teams significant cap and Prescott is only making 8% of the cap at 17 million this year.
I don't know the CAP. The numbers where from NFL .COM so they put out bogus BS numbers. I have no idea the exact value of any of the contracts. The NFL don't. You are the only one. Let's say Cousins makes 100 million. Yes we can't keep that and that is why Speilman has been fired. There are thousands of sights with salary/ cap whatever it is none are correct. Many here keep saying 45 million. You make up a number. I make up a number. The number changes every second. Next year Dak won't be 40 million it will be 2 million. This game sucks. It's zero fun and not interesting at all. Boring. What I posted sucks and is wrong. I only copied and it's wrong. I have no idea what these guys are making. I don't even care. They can kick Cousins out the door and it wouldn't bother me. Insert the next stiff and go from there. But if anyone thinks we can insert some bum and make the Super Bowl you are dead wrong. If anyone thinks a QB can take the worse defense we ever had to the Super Bowl you are dead wrong.