Cowboys @ Vikings post game

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TSonn
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by TSonn »

chicagopurple wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:52 am The VIkes are a fire sale. We are only one teeny step above the putrid Lions....
We have a few players that are worthy of trading for some draft picks and they ought to do so quickly. But Spielman needs to go, He will NEVER build a SB winner. The D is aging and what "stars" we had are past their sell by date. The OL doesnt exist. The QB is mediocre and paid like Brady, its all gotta go and someone with modern proven football skills needs to come in at GM and head coach. Flush the damn toilet.....

The worst thing is that the rest of the division sucks other then GB, and GB was close to imploding due to issues with their QB. These current years were a window for MN to take over the division and Spielman crapped his pants for a decade....
Rodgers is most likely gone next year which means the NFC North will be wide open for the next few years. Really unfortunate that Vikings leadership is going to fire Zimmer and rebuild at the only time in the past 25 years when GB won't have a HOF QB.

Probably should've planned for us to be peaking when Rodgers retires/leaves GB but that would've taken planning and forethought instead of only caring about butts in seats every week.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by makila »

TSonn wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:55 am
makila wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:37 am

Zimmer is the opposite of a "the buck stops with me" leader. Which is ironic as he likes to fashion himself as a no-nonense do your job guy. Yet takes ZERO personal responsibility for anything. So fing sick of his bull.
Zimmer did admit he "screwed up" with the double timeout thing. That one was gonna be tough to punt to someone else though.
Fair enough.He did. I'm a bit numb to it after hearing him blame everybody else for so long. Ha.

Anyone who subscribes to the Athletic:
https://theathletic.com/2926426/2021/11 ... s-offense/

The Vikings didn’t just lose 20-16 to a backup quarterback who had never started a game this league. They didn’t just cough up a gift from the scheduling gods who extended an olive branch at the beginning of what’s supposed to be a brutal four-game span. And they didn’t just drop a home game to the Dallas Cowboys in which they didn’t trail until 51 seconds remained. They did all of that with a stuck-in-the-mud offense that was supposed to be the strength of this team, a unit that was a top-10 outfit a year ago and now looks incompetent.

They’re a group that disappears for long stretches, like their three straight three-and-outs in the second half. It’s an offense that has turned Cousins into a checkdown machine, one who completed more passes to fullback CJ Ham on Sunday than star receiver Justin Jefferson. Cousins’ passes traveled an average of 4.5 yards past the line of scrimmage Sunday. Cooper Rush’s passes averaged more than double that.

The Vikings, it seems, are out of answers for how a once-fearsome offense has turned into one that trips over its own feet while constantly aiming shy of a first down. The only predictable part of this unit is the ways in which it’ll fail. When it’s third-and-10, look for a 6-yard checkdown to the tight end. Need 4 yards? How about a 2-yard pass to the fullback? That’s how you finish 1-of-13 on third downs with the only conversion coming on the opening drive. After that first possession, Cousins had eight third-down throws. He didn’t pass beyond the sticks a single time.

Their final drive of the first half ended because their highest-paid player isn’t allowed to call timeouts and the offense couldn’t get lined up. Their best drive of the second half only happened because of 33 yards of Cowboys penalties. Their final defensive stand involved the coach calling two timeouts before the Cowboys ran a single play. Their final possession was hindered because the center picked up a false-start penalty.

Maybe that gets us to what’s most frustrating about this group. They truly are built like a modern offense. Jefferson and Thielen beat man coverage with routes that make cornerbacks’ heads spin. Dalvin Cook is the epitome of a modern running back. The offensive line is athletic and mobile. And Cousins processes the game well and throws an accurate ball.

Somehow, all of that adds up to games like Sunday when Cousins throws for a meager 184 yards and the Vikings average 4.6 yards per play. Sometimes it seems that’s on coaching. Other times, it seems like it’s on the offensive line or the quarterback.

The Vikings are in a troubling place, and it’s time for an honest conversation about the offense. I’m just not sure the Vikings are ready to have it.

https://theathletic.com/2925848/2021/11 ... -the-most/

In theory, the moment of truth arrived just how Mike Zimmer would have wanted it. The Vikings offense had just completed a 69-yard drive with the go-ahead field goal, and now it was up to Zimmer and his defense to close the door.

This is how Zimmer has built this team to win. Run the ball, control the clock, keep it close and let his defense squeeze the life out of the opponent. The Vikings had a 16-13 lead with less than three minutes to play against a backup quarterback who spent much of the game throwing loaves of bread that were begging to be intercepted. Zimmer is a defensive-minded coach in an era of offensive explosion, a proud and stubborn teacher of the old school who has been determined to show that he still has a thing or two to teach the kids.

There will be plenty of ink spilled and pounds of flesh demanded of Kirk Cousins, Klint Kubiak and the checkdown-loving offense. That unit was embarrassing with the eyes of the entire league on it against the Dallas Cowboys. But the offense’s futility should not obscure the fact that this defense, in particular two of its most important and tenured members in Zimmer and linebacker Anthony Barr, failed miserably in the game’s biggest moment of a 20-16 loss on Sunday night, just as it has failed in big spots time and again this season.

That turned a third-and-16 into third-and-11. Rush took the snap, felt some heat and dumped the ball off to Ezekiel Elliott in the middle of the field, content to play it safe and take a few more yards to make things easier on kicker Greg Zuerlein, who had already missed one field goal in the game. But Elliott caught the ball and turned upfield, confronted by Barr and Mackensie Alexander.

No one has championed Barr over the years more than Zimmer. Barr was Zimmer’s first draft pick as Vikings coach. Barr took a pay cut to stay with the Vikings this season and finish what he and Zimmer started. There are profound levels of respect and admiration between them. Right then and there, Zimmer needed Barr more than ever.

But Elliott lowered his shoulder and ran through Barr and Alexander like they weren’t even there, then carried Cameron Dantzler for the first down.

Right before the bye, languishing Carolina Panthers quarterback Sam Darnold led an 11-play, 96-yard drive in 1:27 for a game-tying touchdown that forced overtime against the Vikings. Cousins and the offense bailed the defense out in that one with a score in overtime.

Earlier in the season against the hapless Detroit Lions, Alexander Mattison fumbled the ball at the Minnesota 20 with 1:56 to play and a 16-9 lead, and that’s when the Vikings needed their defense to slam the door. It took the Lions just three plays to rip right through the defense for a touchdown and a 17-16 lead. Once again, Cousins led a crunch-time drive to get the game-winning field goal.

It certainly did not help that Cousins and the high-priced, star-studded Vikings offense proved incapable of outdueling Rush, who had thrown three passes in the previous four seasons before getting his first career start Sunday night. Whereas Rush was willing to take risks and loft the ball downfield to his talented receivers, Cousins was either unwilling to take chances throwing into tight coverage to Adam Thielen and Justin Jefferson or unable because of the Cowboys pass rush that had him running around for much of the night.

“We just have to finish. We haven’t finished all year,” Woods said. “Defensively, we haven’t finished all year, and that’s been our Achilles heel.”

That is supposed to be Zimmer’s expertise. He has lobbied hard for Barr every step of the way, including when the Vikings found a little bit more money to pay him after Barr initially committed to the New York Jets in free agency in 2019. Zimmer is one of the sharpest defensive minds this league has seen in a long time, so questioning his allegiance to Barr would be foolish. Zimmer knows what he needs and has said time and again that Barr is a difference maker in his scheme.

For a coach who takes defense so personally, who handpicked the players and has stood by them every step of the way, to watch a no-name quarterback march right down the field to beat them had to be gut-wrenching. Had the Vikings gone down under a hail of Cousins interceptions or a Dalvin Cook fumble or a missed field goal from Greg Joseph, that would be one thing.

Last year’s defensive struggles were supposed to be an anomaly. Zimmer has spent eight years trying to build this team in his image, with an unyielding defense leading the way. Instead, his beloved unit is failing when he needs it the most. As Barr lay on the U.S. Bank Stadium turf and watched Elliott thunder forward for a first down, that identity of the Mike Zimmer Vikings was nowhere to be found.
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TSonn
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by TSonn »

That The Athletic article sums it all up.

Why doesn't Zimmer let Kirk call timeouts at the end of the half and games? That just screams of dysfunction. Glad Kirk said something about it to shed some light on it.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter »

TSonn wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:18 am
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:10 am
We have the 8th best defense in the only stats that impact wins and losses, not middle of the road. It is a top 10 D built with mostly castoff free agents.

Just to be very clear, I am NOT giving the old "Yeah, we could fire Zimmer, but who are we going to find that is better?" argument that people like to throw around for mediocre GM's, QB's and HC's. That is a tired argument that people content with mediocrity give to defend the mediocre. I am saying that we cannot just fire Zimmer and expect everything to get better. To do that we need to start completely over, fire the GM who was content with Zimmer for 8 seasons, trade the QB who is a problem against nearly every good team we face, and try to build a SB caliber team.
Who gets to decide which stats are the only stats that impact wins and losses? Sounds like a convenient way to just ignore any data you want.
Last I checked scoring points is the only stat that affected wins and losses. That is not convenience, that is reality.

However, if you want other stats the Vikings are 6th in DVOA on D which takes into account yards given up per play. Better?
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by allday1991 »

Top ten defence, pass whatever your drinking/smoking. Fire Zimmer, trying to defend this guy still is just getting old, he sucks period.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by TSonn »

StumpHunter wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:33 am
TSonn wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:18 am

Who gets to decide which stats are the only stats that impact wins and losses? Sounds like a convenient way to just ignore any data you want.
Last I checked scoring points is the only stat that affected wins and losses. That is not convenience, that is reality.

However, if you want other stats the Vikings are 6th in DVOA on D which takes into account yards given up per play. Better?
I'm genuinely confused. Aren't we 12th in pts allowed per game?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... me/dir/asc

I see we're 20th in yards allowed per game. I understand why you don't want to talk about that one.

I'm also not sure why scoring defense matters when we have a coach that plays to keep the game within a score and then relies on the defense to get a stop to win and the defense cannot do that (see: Detroit, Carolina, Dallas).
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

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allday1991 wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:44 am Top ten defence, pass whatever your drinking/smoking. Fire Zimmer, trying to defend this guy still is just getting old, he sucks period.
Perception versus reality. Perception is that this defense isn't good because of one drive at the end of a game where the offense consistently went 3 and out and kept the D on the field. Reality is that the D held up for the vast majority of that game despite being down two of its best players and played well enough where competent QB play easily wins that game.

Perception is that I am defending Zimmer. Reality is that I am pointing out that the real issue with this team is the offense, something the head coach is also responsible for and have stated he should be fired.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by fiestavike »

It's time to trade or bench ol' Cap'n Spazz Cousins.

This was one of the worst performances of his career. He crapped the bed several times over, and but for 3 bogus 'roughing' calls in rapid succession, doesn't even get the vikings close to taking the lead in the 4th QTR.

The guy is a total dud. Couldn't lead a HS team through a paper banner. Can't win with him.
Last edited by fiestavike on Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by TSonn »

StumpHunter wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:54 am
allday1991 wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:44 am Top ten defence, pass whatever your drinking/smoking. Fire Zimmer, trying to defend this guy still is just getting old, he sucks period.
Perception versus reality. Perception is that this defense isn't good because of one drive at the end of a game where the offense consistently went 3 and out and kept the D on the field. Reality is that the D held up for the vast majority of that game despite being down two of its best players and played well enough where competent QB play easily wins that game.

Perception is that I am defending Zimmer. Reality is that I am pointing out that the real issue with this team is the offense, something the head coach is also responsible for and have stated he should be fired.
LOL at "one drive".

One drive vs Detroit.
One drive vs Carolina.
One drive vs Dallas.

The defense has had 3 opportunities at the end of games to get stops to get the win this season. 4 actually if you include the 2 point conversion vs Detroit. They've failed on all of them.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by VikingLord »

Really, this one came down to incompetence on offense. At home.

Yeah, the defense should probably have done better. There was some real whack out there and inconsistency on defense reared its ugly head yet again, but the way I saw it the defense did more than enough to win this game had the offense simply been competent. It was not. Not even close, and now they're honestly staring a 3-7 start in the face.

Where is the point when it becomes apparent that Cousins, for whatever reason, just isn't the same player against better teams? And its not like the Cowboys are a great defense, but Cousins just lacks the consistency necessary to play against teams that can scheme him into a certain mentality. Once that happens, forget it, its game over. He'll check it down, hold it too long, second-guess himself all game.

I can't put all the blame on one player in any loss, but Cousins can't perform like this as he does so consistently if the Vikings have any hopes of being a contender. Even on a good team, which this team is not, QB play like that will kill them every time. Surely the Wilfs must see that at this point, as must Zimmer and Spielman.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by StumpHunter »

TSonn wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:50 am
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:33 am
Last I checked scoring points is the only stat that affected wins and losses. That is not convenience, that is reality.

However, if you want other stats the Vikings are 6th in DVOA on D which takes into account yards given up per play. Better?
I'm genuinely confused. Aren't we 12th in pts allowed per game?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... me/dir/asc

I see we're 20th in yards allowed per game. I understand why you don't want to talk about that one.

I'm also not sure why scoring defense matters when we have a coach that plays to keep the game within a score and then relies on the defense to get a stop to win and the defense cannot do that (see: Detroit, Carolina, Dallas).
The defense is not 12th in points allowed per game, the team is. That number includes points given up on special teams and offense, something the defense has little control over.

This stat:
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... tsdef/2021

Only has scores given up by the defense and takes into account the number of times a defense is asked to make a stop. So if the offense is struggling and having a bunch of 3 and outs, and D is out on the field constantly (like ours is), you get some of that context here. It is far more accurate of a predictor for how good a D is than simple ppg against (that includes points not scored on the D) or yards per game, because there is actual context surrounding yards and points given up.

So from a points standpoint, the reality is that Vikings are 8th in scoring. From a yardage standpoint they are even better giving up the 6th fewest yards per drive.

DVOA goes even further and looks at yards per play, as well as how good the opponent is on those individual plays. The Vikings are 6th there.

The offense is the problem and it isn't even close.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

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VikingLord wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:00 am Really, this one came down to incompetence on offense. At home.

Yeah, the defense should probably have done better. There was some real whack out there and inconsistency on defense reared its ugly head yet again, but the way I saw it the defense did more than enough to win this game had the offense simply been competent. It was not. Not even close, and now they're honestly staring a 3-7 start in the face.

Where is the point when it becomes apparent that Cousins, for whatever reason, just isn't the same player against better teams? And its not like the Cowboys are a great defense, but Cousins just lacks the consistency necessary to play against teams that can scheme him into a certain mentality. Once that happens, forget it, its game over. He'll check it down, hold it too long, second-guess himself all game.

I can't put all the blame on one player in any loss, but Cousins can't perform like this as he does so consistently if the Vikings have any hopes of being a contender. Even on a good team, which this team is not, QB play like that will kill them every time. Surely the Wilfs must see that at this point, as must Zimmer and Spielman.
He's been in the league for 10 years. He is what he is. An awesomely talented guy, great physical traits and durability, who simply lacks the composure to excel at the NFL level.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by IIsweet »

Next Gen stat of the game: Kirk Cousins was 6 of 15 for 29 yards under pressure
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by CharVike »

makila wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:32 am Zimmer isn't the ONLY issue. We need wholesale change. This coaching regime needs to go. I'm tired of Rick's roster he builds too. How much of that is him vs Zimmer? I have no idea. I know our oline issues have remained for a decade. Our lack of WR depth has been there forever. We've wasted high picks on CBs who are elsewhere (yes I know this is likely the Zimmer factor).

ALL the coaching hires are their responsibility. OC sucks again? Same joke of a HC and GM hired him. It's their responsibility. This is how an organization works. You continue to make bad hires, then you are the problem.

Our HC is a mediocre DC in today's NFL who can't manage a game clock to save his life, or situational football. Refuses to accept any responsibility, throws his players under the bus constantly. NFL has moved way past Zimmer now. He peaked 5 seasons ago.

Bring in a young OC who knows current NFL offenses and is more in-tune with his locker room / players as HC. . Hire an experienced DC to run that side of the ball. Since it's the copy cat league....look at the Cardinals. Woah that's painful to type.
Look at the Cardinals? Why? They were lucky to beat us in there house. They couldn't beat the Packers in there house. Sounds like the same story as we are doing today. They need to start at the top with trader down Rick. He needs to go first and then the rest of his crew will follow. The Chiefs have a current NFL offense with the best young QB in the game. Couldn't even put up a TD this week. You want that? Everybody runs the same offense. I don't see a Joe Gibbs who created the H back to deal with the modern speed rushers. I don't see an Air Coryell type of air attack out there today. We run the Kubesteak attack which is as modern as it gets. It's ahead of it's time really. Our problem is our HC let's the air out once we have a lead. I've seen this opening drive for 7 and then nothing before. Once we get up the breaks are applied. Zim is our OC, DC and HC. The two stiffs we have as coordinators are do nothing but say yes men. They just have a title. This throwing behind the LOS is gut turning. That's basically a hand off that might get a couple yards if it works to perfection. If not perfect then a few yards lost. Wasted play.
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Re: Cowboys @ Vikings post game

Post by TSonn »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:00 am Really, this one came down to incompetence on offense. At home.

Yeah, the defense should probably have done better. There was some real whack out there and inconsistency on defense reared its ugly head yet again, but the way I saw it the defense did more than enough to win this game had the offense simply been competent. It was not. Not even close, and now they're honestly staring a 3-7 start in the face.

Where is the point when it becomes apparent that Cousins, for whatever reason, just isn't the same player against better teams? And its not like the Cowboys are a great defense, but Cousins just lacks the consistency necessary to play against teams that can scheme him into a certain mentality. Once that happens, forget it, its game over. He'll check it down, hold it too long, second-guess himself all game.

I can't put all the blame on one player in any loss, but Cousins can't perform like this as he does so consistently if the Vikings have any hopes of being a contender. Even on a good team, which this team is not, QB play like that will kill them every time. Surely the Wilfs must see that at this point, as must Zimmer and Spielman.
Kirk admitted that he's not allowed to call timeouts or plays at the end of the half and at the end of games.

"I just let Zim handle the timeouts, because I never know quite what the coaches want to do with what they're thinking, a play ahead or what that may be. So I was just gonna let them handle that and call the next play if one came in."

Kirk may very well be part of the problem but he's currently a symptom of Double Timeout Mike.
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