Browns @ Vikings post game

[Dmizzle0]

Should have been penalties but offset.

One thing I will say about the holding call on Kendricks on that 4th down play is the ref should use some discretion when deciding to throw a flag there. Yes, there is a small tug. No, the tug didn't impede the receiver at all. He still ran his route as before. Mayfield did look at him, but the WR had his back turned at that moment and hadn't yet made his break. Mayfield abandoned that option pretty quickly, not because Kendricks changed anything about his route or ability to run it, but because Mayfield felt pressure coming and got happy feet and bailed.

A flag in that situation is about as close as a ref can come to handing the Browns a TD. Not only does it advance the ball closer to the goal line, but it also gives them 4 more cracks at the endzone. So to throw a flag in that situation, the foul should be at least egregious enough to have actually prevented a TD. Since the receiver was not impeded and since Mayfield didn't actually try to throw to him, it's hard to argue it had any impact on the outcome of the play. Certainly no more than the OL holding that was missed by the refs.

Ironically, on the final Vikings play to end the game where Cousins heaved it towards the endzone, Adam Thielen was literally run over by a Browns DB as Thielen tried to come back for the ball. The Browns DB wasn't looking back, but in that case Thielen was clearly impeded and Cousins was attempting to get the ball to him. How the refs flag Kendricks for a minor jersey tug on an abandoned route while not flagging the Browns DB for blatantly impeding Thielen on a deep comeback route is hard to reconcile.

No, I'm not complaining about the refs per se, but inconsistent ref involvement on critical plays does bug me. If you're going to call a game tight, call it consistently tight. If you're calling it loose, call it consistently loose. Don't shift the standards for what is a foul and especially don't do that in critical, game-altering situations.

I am not happy with that kind of BS from refs. I think that is a legit complaint.

Thanks for explaining it better than me,

[CharVike]

From Purple Daily pod: Zimmer is 17-41 against teams that finish the season with winning record (with them projecting Cards and Browns as winning records at end of season). With Kirk and Zimmer together they are 5-21 against teams that finish with a winning record. Hahahaha thats so bad.

They are pretty negative on both Coaching and Front Office.

Also pointed out, coach that had a worse record than Zimmer against such teams? Jay Gruden. Both from Cincy tree. Both also with Cousins as their QB during much of their HC tenure.

12-20 prior Cousins with Bridgewater, Bradford and Case prior to 2018. Not good but only 3 games going the other way away from .500. Plus, you take out 2014 which was a rebuild year and that number is closer to .500.

5-21 with Cousins is really bad though.

Cousins was 2-10 prior to joining the Vikings.

So Cousins was .167 prior to joining the Vikings against winning teams, and improved to .192. Zimmer was at .375 and fell to .192.

So 2014 was a rebuild year. You don't call 2020 a rebuild year. It looked like it to me. Justin Herbert who I think is a good young QB is the biggest activate loser in the NFL. He's 166 against winning teams which is worse than our guy. In your view he sucks. Rodgers who will be in the HOF has a losing record against winning teams. I guess he sucks also. Josh Allen is below 500. He sucks also. I could go on but why. Every QB needs a supporting cast. You claimed that Brady made that Buc OL good and I posted there center was a pro bowler before he got there. That OL was good before him. Were in rebuild this year. 3 new starters in the secondary. That's full bore rebuild. Instead of rookies this time Speilman signed cast off bums. Bridgewater has had many chances and has failed in all of them. It won't be long before Denver pulls the plug. Case is riding the pine somewhere I guess. He's not starter material. Had his chance and was booted out of town by us and Denver. Case had the best defense in the NFL. You don't think that helped? I do. Football in the ultimate team game. It has always started at the LOS. If you lose that battle say good night. It was proven again. Mayfield couldn't hit the ocean from the beach and was worthless. So the Browns decided to pound it. 180 some yards rushing. That's getting beat at the point badly and that comes down to dominating the LOS. We get destroyed at the point by good teams. That puts us at a huge disadvantage. Do you actually think Brady would lead this squad to a Super Bowl victory. He's the best ever. First off he wouldn't come here because he knows playing behind this OL would be career ending. Brady wouldn't make us the favorites. Goff and Jimmy G two super bowl guys wouldn't either.

[StumpHunter]

12-20 prior Cousins with Bridgewater, Bradford and Case prior to 2018. Not good but only 3 games going the other way away from .500. Plus, you take out 2014 which was a rebuild year and that number is closer to .500.

5-21 with Cousins is really bad though.

Cousins was 2-10 prior to joining the Vikings.

So Cousins was .167 prior to joining the Vikings against winning teams, and improved to .192. Zimmer was at .375 and fell to .192.

So 2014 was a rebuild year. You don't call 2020 a rebuild year. It looked like it to me. Justin Herbert who I think is a good young QB is the biggest activate loser in the NFL. He's 166 against winning teams which is worse than our guy. In your view he sucks.

If Herbert still has that .166 record against winning teams 10 years into his career people won't be talking about him being a good QB. Besides, 4 games into his 2nd season he already appears to have beaten Cousins best season against winning teams with a win against the Raiders and KC, two teams that should win at least 9 games this year. What an absurd argument to make, comparing a QB's rookie season to 10 year vet's career.

Rodgers who will be in the HOF has a losing record against winning teams. I guess he sucks also. Josh Allen is below 500. He sucks also.

Another BS argument. Rodgers has won 3 games against winning teams for every 1 Cousins has won. Josh Allen has played half as many winning teams as Cousins and already has as many wins against them. Your argument is equivalent to stating Ty Cobb couldn't even hit .500 on his career so was Mendoza really that bad of a hitter?

Every QB needs a supporting cast.

Really?!?!? What a profound statement you just made. Every QB needs a supporting cast, some just need a much better one than others. We haven't found the supporting cast that could carry Cousins to be anything more than .500 QB yet, but maybe in year 15 he will finally have the elite line, defense, WRs and RB he apparently needs.

You claimed that Brady made that Buc OL good and I posted there center was a pro bowler before he got there. That OL was good before him.

LOL, his center was really good before he got there so the entire Oline was really good in 2020?

My point wasn't that Brady's Oline was bad and he made them look good btw. Brady made what was already an okay Oline look much better in 2020. In the SB especially he made his Oline mostly irrelevant with his quick decisions.

Bridgewater has had many chances and has failed in all of them. It won't be long before Denver pulls the plug. Case is riding the pine somewhere I guess. He's not starter material. Had his chance and was booted out of town by us and Denver. Case had the best defense in the NFL. You don't think that helped?

Okay? Weird tangent, and you forgot the worst QB of the bunch, Bradford, but it proves my point. If Zimmer can get close to .500 with those guys, what does it say about our current QB?

Do you actually think Brady would lead this squad to a Super Bowl victory

He would make this team significantly better, but not guarantee a SB. No QB can do that and this is a flawed team. There is a pretty big gap between competing for a SB, something Brady would have us doing, and being 1-3 and looking at winning 5 games total though.

[CharVike]

12-20 prior Cousins with Bridgewater, Bradford and Case prior to 2018. Not good but only 3 games going the other way away from .500. Plus, you take out 2014 which was a rebuild year and that number is closer to .500.

5-21 with Cousins is really bad though.

Cousins was 2-10 prior to joining the Vikings.

So Cousins was .167 prior to joining the Vikings against winning teams, and improved to .192. Zimmer was at .375 and fell to .192.

It just hit me very clearly what the difference is in Cousins when he's facing solid pressure early. He just tightens up and gets tunnel vision. Whereas in the first three games he's sitting back there in boss mode, the Browns start to breath down his neck and he totally clamps up. He no longer looks anywhere but his safety valve reads for the most part. He's "twitchy". The play where he started to take off running and cross the LOS before he threw is a good example of that. Either run or throw there. First three games, he stayed cool and calm under pressure and bought himself time. Against the Browns, he looked afraid on pretty much every drop back. Timing is also off. On the deep Thielen route that resulted in the pick he had a small window to hit Thielen, but he held on to it and launched the ball late, allowing the other DB to come over and make that play.

I guess he wasn't terrible against the Browns, but neither did he continue to play at the level he displayed in the first three games. Yeah, the Browns definitely had something to do with that, and most QBs will wilt under pressure, but Cousins just seems to "feel" when his OL isn't going to get it done for him. He can see it when the run game can't move the ball. He is getting guys in his face quickly, including free rushers who are hitting him frequently. He gets jumpy, his confidence vanishes, and he's just looking to get the ball out as quickly and safely as he possibly can, often to well covered receivers because the opposing defense knows that's what he will do in those situations.

If we can safely assume that defenses like the one the Browns possess are the type of defenses that typically make it deeper into the playoffs, then its no wonder why Cousins has not enjoyed any substantial success in the playoffs over his career, and it also explains his poor record against better pass defenses.

Stump already made these points ad nauseum, but this last game compared to his first three games this year was like night and friggin day difference. It really stood out, painfully so.

The really depressing part is, there is zero chance this changes at this point in his career. He's not going to figure out a way to cope with things better under pressure or realize that to have success against high pressure defenses he HAS to find a way to keep his eyes downfield and find the deep guys the defense is literally handing him on a silver platter, because that is what will make the pressure go away. He just can't do it, at least not with the consistency for any defensive coordinator with a decent pass rush to back off for even a minute.

Every QB I have ever seen tightens up when the pressure is coming. That's why top ranked defenses always get after the QB. It's been that way since I remember. Cousins will get destroyed if our OL can't handle the LOS. Cook will get destroyed also. I've seen it. This week Matti didn't want to be out there. He knew he was dead meat. Two yards a carry is about as bad as it gets. That type of back should be cut. But our OL was destroyed at the point. They couldn't hold up. I'm sure the grounds crew hopes Bradberry wears a towel over his back against good teams because they are sick and tired of painting out the 56 stamped in the turf. They also need to paint out a 69 this year. When guys are pushed on there back the games up and the turf needs touch up paint all over the place. Any team with a good defense will give our O problems. The Browns controlled the LOS. They have good lineman on both sides. That's how you take a team out of it. Controlling the LOS has always been key. Mayfield was a bum this week but I give the Browns credit for pounding the ball down our D's throat. You can't allow that to happen. Most of the pre game predictions basically stated that we needed to control their ground game our we would have problems. We also needed to block or our O would struggle. That's exactly how it panned out. I don't think Brady would have guided us to victory in this game.
A rocky game for Baker Mayfield, who was under plenty of pressure himself and went just 15 for 33 for 155 yards. They all struggle under pressure. But Mayfield gets the win and if we get above 500 this year it will be a win against an above 500 team but Mayfield had nothing to do with the win. Basically provided clean hand offs all day.

[J. Kapp 11]

Unfotnately, he didn’t get it against the Browns. According to PFF, Rashod Hill gave up nine pressures, while Oli Udoh gave up eight. Darrisaw and Davis are the two guys drafted to be the future at those two positions. Maybe it’s time for our coach to give the kids a chance.

I don't know about Davis getting on the field soon, but I think Darrisaw couldn't have done worse against Garrett than Hill did. I can't recall the last time I watched a left tackle get planted on his butt by a defensive end like Garrett did to Hill. You almost never see a defensive end attempt a bull rush on a tackle like that. In fact, I can't recall ever seeing it, but Garrett did exactly that to Hill and it might have been more than once.

Udoh should do better than he's doing. The dude is a big, strong guy with decent feet who should be dictating, so for him to be a turnstile, even against a talented defensive front like the Browns, is a little disappointing. He is a little tall for a guard, and maybe that is causing him to lose leverage in pass protection.

All I know is everything the Vikings OL did wrong in terms of execution against the Bengals aside from the incessant penalties they more or less repeated against the Browns. The main difference between the two games was mostly that while the Vikings were able to move the ball on the Bengals in the second half of that game by opening up some running lanes and better pass protection, the Browns never let them get their feet under them. The Browns kept up a very high level of intensity and attack all game and the Vikings OL were just outclassed. They really didn't look like they belonged on the same field most of the game. Yeah, the Browns have a talented defensive line, but the Vikings have invested so much into their OL in the draft it is kind of depressing to see them completely outclassed like that.

Any new GM who comes in after this season needs to find bigger, stronger OL, certainly on the interior. The guys they have maybe can be backups or something. They need to get much stronger and nastier on the interior OL regardless of what they do at QB.

Some notes about the Vikings OL from Arif Hasan at The Athletic.

— The actual number of pressures allowed against the Browns was 30. (Yikes!)
— Cousins was pressured on 55% of his dropbacks.
— Teams that are pressured on at least 55% of dropbacks lose 74% of the time.
— Rashod Hill, who gave up a ridiculous 9 pressures, has a 39.4 PFF grade, which ranks 71st out of 73 qualified tackles.
— Hill has scored a PFF grade under 60 in each of the two seasons he took 50% or more of the offensive snaps. He’s over a 60 grade in years he takes 15% or fewer of the offensive snaps. In other words, he is a fine backup, but not starting material.

Christian Darrisaw needs to be on the field. It’s the first and most obvious way the Vikings can improve the O-line.

Beyond that, I have no idea. In the modern era, you should not lose games 14-7.

[VikingLord]

No, I'm not complaining about the refs per se, but inconsistent ref involvement on critical plays does bug me. If you're going to call a game tight, call it consistently tight. If you're calling it loose, call it consistently loose. Don't shift the standards for what is a foul and especially don't do that in critical, game-altering situations.

I do agree in principle with this point. Personally I harp on players needing to adjust to how a game is called. In all sports. Adjust to how the refs are calling it. Therefor it definitely is fair to ask for consistent flags. Reality is though they aren't always consistent. Stars get special treatment etc.

Ultimately only control your actions though.

Totally agree. In the end the flags come out because of things the Vikings themselves are doing. Refs can throw flags for imaginary infractions, but I haven't seen any yet this year. In every case a call has gone against the Vikings so far, it's been justified.

[VikingLord]

See a lot of complaining about the refs. Haven't seen one comment about Cousins INT and the poor effort by Thielen to break up the bad pass.

When Cousins let that ball fly I thought "Finally! He's going to make the Browns pay down the field..."

[StumpHunter]

I do agree in principle with this point. Personally I harp on players needing to adjust to how a game is called. In all sports. Adjust to how the refs are calling it. Therefor it definitely is fair to ask for consistent flags. Reality is though they aren't always consistent. Stars get special treatment etc.

Ultimately only control your actions though.

Totally agree. In the end the flags come out because of things the Vikings themselves are doing. Refs can throw flags for imaginary infractions, but I haven't seen any yet this year. In every case a call has gone against the Vikings so far, it's been justified.

There have been a couple of roughing the passer calls that have gone for the Vikings that were complete BS. The one in this last game where a defender fell down behind Cousins and his teammate brushed Cousins causing him to step back and trip over the guy on the ground was a terrible call.

[makila]

So FWIW - Entering this year Rodgers had a 0.456 winning % against teams that finished the regular season with a winning record. I'll take that over sub 0.200 anyday.
https://www.sportsandfitnessdigest.com/ ... ms-career/

Josh Allen after 3 seasons is 0.411.
https://www.sportsandfitnessdigest.com/ ... ing-teams/

Herbert after 1 season (last season as a rookie) was low in the Cousins range, at 0.200.

[StumpHunter]

See a lot of complaining about the refs. Haven't seen one comment about Cousins INT and the poor effort by Thielen to break up the bad pass.

When Cousins let that ball fly I thought "Finally! He's going to make the Browns pay down the field..."

That was a really under thrown ball and one that in previous years would have been a lot closer to a completion.

Nextgenstats has Cousins' longest completed pass as only travelling 40 yards. Only Mac Jones, Davis Mills and Andy Dalton have shorter longest throws.

Is there something wrong with his arm?

[CharVike]

So 2014 was a rebuild year. You don't call 2020 a rebuild year. It looked like it to me. Justin Herbert who I think is a good young QB is the biggest activate loser in the NFL. He's 166 against winning teams which is worse than our guy. In your view he sucks.

If Herbert still has that .166 record against winning teams 10 years into his career people won't be talking about him being a good QB. Besides, 4 games into his 2nd season he already appears to have beaten Cousins best season against winning teams with a win against the Raiders and KC, two teams that should win at least 9 games this year. What an absurd argument to make, comparing a QB's rookie season to 10 year vet's career.

Rodgers who will be in the HOF has a losing record against winning teams. I guess he sucks also. Josh Allen is below 500. He sucks also.

Another BS argument. Rodgers has won 3 games against winning teams for every 1 Cousins has won. Josh Allen has played half as many winning teams as Cousins and already has as many wins against them. Your argument is equivalent to stating Ty Cobb couldn't even hit .500 on his career so was Mendoza really that bad of a hitter?

Every QB needs a supporting cast.

Really?!?!? What a profound statement you just made. Every QB needs a supporting cast, some just need a much better one than others. We haven't found the supporting cast that could carry Cousins to be anything more than .500 QB yet, but maybe in year 15 he will finally have the elite line, defense, WRs and RB he apparently needs.

You claimed that Brady made that Buc OL good and I posted there center was a pro bowler before he got there. That OL was good before him.

LOL, his center was really good before he got there so the entire Oline was really good in 2020?

My point wasn't that Brady's Oline was bad and he made them look good btw. Brady made what was already an okay Oline look much better in 2020. In the SB especially he made his Oline mostly irrelevant with his quick decisions.

Bridgewater has had many chances and has failed in all of them. It won't be long before Denver pulls the plug. Case is riding the pine somewhere I guess. He's not starter material. Had his chance and was booted out of town by us and Denver. Case had the best defense in the NFL. You don't think that helped?

Okay? Weird tangent, and you forgot the worst QB of the bunch, Bradford, but it proves my point. If Zimmer can get close to .500 with those guys, what does it say about our current QB?

Do you actually think Brady would lead this squad to a Super Bowl victory

He would make this team significantly better, but not guarantee a SB. No QB can do that and this is a flawed team. There is a pretty big gap between competing for a SB, something Brady would have us doing, and being 1-3 and looking at winning 5 games total though.

As you stated before no team will trade for Cousins. They should just cut him and he will be out of football. The CAP hit won't matter at that point. Broncos wouldn't want him they have their star. The Panthers have their star now so they wouldn't take him. The Saints have their star also. Steelers are set. No need in the NFL for a QB. Put the next Joe Webb or Joe whoever in there and start the rebuild now. Get rid of Hunter, Smith, Cook, Theilan and others who will be finished before the rebuild is done. Collect a bunch of worthless 4th and 7th round picks. Our biggest problem is getting destroyed at the point. You can't give up 180 yards on the ground. That's getting pushed around big time. This team lacks the talent to compete for the trophy. Has nothing to do with this brown game because they are more talented than us. We couldn't win those 1st two games which was the big slap in the face.

[StumpHunter]

As you stated before no team will trade for Cousins. They should just cut him and he will be out of football. The CAP hit won't matter at that point. Broncos wouldn't want him they have their star. The Panthers have their star now so they wouldn't take him. The Saints have their star also. Steelers are set. No need in the NFL for a QB. Put the next Joe Webb or Joe whoever in there and start the rebuild now. Get rid of Hunter, Smith, Cook, Theilan and others who will be finished before the rebuild is done. Collect a bunch of worthless 4th and 7th round picks. Our biggest problem is getting destroyed at the point. You can't give up 180 yards on the ground. That's getting pushed around big time. This team lacks the talent to compete for the trophy. Has nothing to do with this brown game because they are more talented than us. We couldn't win those 1st two games which was the big slap in the face.

Why do you think the only options at QB are Cousins or a QB like Joe Webb?

Why are the Panthers at 3-1 worse off than the Vikings at 1-3? Same with the Broncos who are 3-1?

This team does lack talent to compete for the trophy, but giving up 180 yards on the ground is irrelevant when you are only giving up 14 points.

[CharVike]

As you stated before no team will trade for Cousins. They should just cut him and he will be out of football. The CAP hit won't matter at that point. Broncos wouldn't want him they have their star. The Panthers have their star now so they wouldn't take him. The Saints have their star also. Steelers are set. No need in the NFL for a QB. Put the next Joe Webb or Joe whoever in there and start the rebuild now. Get rid of Hunter, Smith, Cook, Theilan and others who will be finished before the rebuild is done. Collect a bunch of worthless 4th and 7th round picks. Our biggest problem is getting destroyed at the point. You can't give up 180 yards on the ground. That's getting pushed around big time. This team lacks the talent to compete for the trophy. Has nothing to do with this brown game because they are more talented than us. We couldn't win those 1st two games which was the big slap in the face.

Why do you think the only options at QB are Cousins or a QB like Joe Webb?

Why are the Panthers at 3-1 worse off than the Vikings at 1-3? Same with the Broncos who are 3-1?

This team does lack talent to compete for the trophy, but giving up 180 yards on the ground is irrelevant when you are only giving up 14 points.

You act like QBs grow on trees. Who is out there right now that is great and is available. I'll tell you. Nobody. Even getting a guy of Cousins level is difficult to find. Getting torched for 180 is relevant. Stuff the ground attack and make Mayfield beat you when he's not playing well. They knew they had our OL a$$ess kicked which meant zero ground game and a passing game that was going to struggle. We weren't going to light that Browns D up. They'er not the Bengals. They play hard football.
Kevin Patra
Around the NFL Writer
The Browns ability to pound out 184 rushing yards saved the offense on Sunday. The defense shutting down a heretofore potent Vikings offense was key for Cleveland to get a win on a day its QB struggled.
"[They were] good enough for us to win when I'm playing quarterback like that," Mayfield said. "Thankfully they played like that. ... There's a lot of easy throws there that I think I missed."
“That piss-poor performance by me isn’t going to cut it,” Mayfield said. “I’ve got to be better. It’s just that simple.”
Our D was lucky that he sucked. If he was hitting his WRs it would have been a blow out.
I never said the Panthers or Broncos were worse off. They have each played crappy teams and beat them. They both played 1 game each against good teams and couldn't get the win. They can't beat good teams. Having junk at QB hurts them. Many were shocked that the panthers didn't trade up for a guy. Instead they went for a bust from the Jets. It will cost them.

[VikingLord]

Totally agree. In the end the flags come out because of things the Vikings themselves are doing. Refs can throw flags for imaginary infractions, but I haven't seen any yet this year. In every case a call has gone against the Vikings so far, it's been justified.

There have been a couple of roughing the passer calls that have gone for the Vikings that were complete BS. The one in this last game where a defender fell down behind Cousins and his teammate brushed Cousins causing him to step back and trip over the guy on the ground was a terrible call.

I agree. I saw the flag and I thought "someone must have clocked Cousins or hit him up around the helmet", and then I watched the replay. One of the most ridiculous calls I've seen in recent memory. I guess the defender was down around his feet but if that is roughing the passer I'm the next head coach of the Vikings.

[VikingLord]

When Cousins let that ball fly I thought "Finally! He's going to make the Browns pay down the field..."

That was a really under thrown ball and one that in previous years would have been a lot closer to a completion.

Nextgenstats has Cousins' longest completed pass as only travelling 40 yards. Only Mac Jones, Davis Mills and Andy Dalton have shorter longest throws.

Is there something wrong with his arm?

I thought the same. My son thought Cousins was late getting it out. Thielen was open briefly as one DB broke coverage and passed him to the DB who ended up picking the ball, but when Cousins did launch it, it was thrown where it was an easy pick for the DB. Someone criticized Thielen for not making more of an effort to break up the INT, and while I agree with that criticism as it seemed like Thielen more or less conceded the pick, that ball had no chance of being completed as thrown.

IIRC, Cousins had time in the pocket on that throw too. He had time to set and get his body into the throw. It was either late, inaccurate, or, as you said, just didn't have enough mustard on it to get it to where it needed to be.

Hard to say if something is wrong with his arm, but it was a poor throw. Not necessarily a poor decision, but IMHO, both the timing and the distance were off.