StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:36 pm
You have to put the stats in context.
Are that QBs numbers leading to more points being scored? For instance, a QB can throw for 250 yards, 2 TDs, 0 ints and if the offense only scored 14 points because the 10 non-TD drives all stalled at the 50, that QB probably didn't have a good game despite having numbers that indicate otherwise.
Are that QBs numbers leading to more wins? A QB putting up huge numbers against bad teams while doing poorly against good teams and a QB who struggles late in the 4th when down will probably end up being a .500 QB. A QB who is more consistent and who might not do as well against bad teams but does much better against good teams and who doesn't fold like a cheap lawn chair when down late in the 4th, will win more games than they lose.
Are a good portion of that QB's numbers being accumulated in garbage time? Playing well against prevent defenses after sucking for most of a game doesn't typically lead to a QB helping his team win, but the 80 passing yards and passing TD gained on the final drive when a team was down 17 counts just as much towards the QB's stats as 80 yards, 1 TD when a team was down 5 on a final drive. One generated a win, the other did nothing but inflate a QB's stats.
So where does Kirk stand with all that context?
Since 2018, the VIkings have averaged being the 13th best real scoring offense with one of the top RBs in the NFL playing at a high level in the two years the Vikings were at their best. Considering how much Kirk benefits from his RB, 15th seems about right based on that bit of context.
Since 2018 Kirk is arguably statistically the worst QB in the NFL against top 10 pass defenses and the best QB against bottom 10 pass defenses. He dominates bad teams, plays poorly against good ones. He is one of the worst QBs in the NFL in GWD/Opportunity too, barely edging out Matt Ryan and Sam Darnold.
Since 2018 Kirk is #2 in yards and TDs gained in garbage time. Behind only Matt Ryan.
That is a lot of context that says Kirk isn't as good as the numbers say.
You already had the garbage time stats post up before and record against wining team . All the replies are there. Basically when Kirk lead us back against Rodgers with 22 points in the 4th qtr they were all garbage stats. Cook who I think is the best all around back we have ever had also has many garbage stats. Once down a team should give it up. Brady has a winning record against winning teams. He's a HOFer. Kirk isn't. Prescott who analyst rate far superior than Cousins also has a losing record against winning teams. Just lost last night against a winner. He'll get back on track once a bottom feeder team comes along. Every player puts up better stats against garbage teams.
When Kirk lead us back against GB and threw a pick that should have cost us the game, those numbers were not included in his garbage time stats. I only included stats from losses.
Cook has 73 yards total, and averages 3.2 YPA in garbage time since he entered the league.
Dak actually put his team ahead on his final real drive in the 4th. He had 400+ yards, 3 TDs and might have won against the best team in football if his kicker hadn't missed an extra point and a chipshot FG. What an absurd take.
It also isn't that Kirk has a losing record against winning teams, it is that he pretty much never wins against them. 3 wins in 3 years against winning teams. Being there is a big difference between being 10-15 versus winning teams and being 3-19 or whatever his total is now. It is the difference between making the playoffs and not making them.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:03 am
I think you mean Kyle Brandt. If Gil Brandt were doing the analysis, I might take it seriously. Gil was VP of Player Personnel for the Cowboys during the Tom Landry years. Do you know what Kyle Brandt did to prepare himself to be an analyst? He played a character on Days of Our Lives. That’s right. He was an actor on a soap opera. Brandt has his job because he’s handsome.
This actually made me laugh. I knew it was a "Brandt", but I honestly didn't know Kyle's backstory. Too funny. If I did not know you from this board I would think you're making this up.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:06 am
Prescott who analyst rate far superior than Cousins also has a losing record against winning teams. Just lost last night against a winner.
I thought Dak played well enough to win last night.
Of course, so did Brady, but at least in terms of QB performance the two looked comparable.
The result of the game is more a reflection of the fact that the result of a game doesn't always come down to which QB played better and instead can be the result of special teams and/or defense. Trying to boil a result like last night's down to the QBs does a disservice to both IMHO.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:06 am
You already had the garbage time stats post up before and record against wining team . All the replies are there. Basically when Kirk lead us back against Rodgers with 22 points in the 4th qtr they were all garbage stats. Cook who I think is the best all around back we have ever had also has many garbage stats. Once down a team should give it up. Brady has a winning record against winning teams. He's a HOFer. Kirk isn't. Prescott who analyst rate far superior than Cousins also has a losing record against winning teams. Just lost last night against a winner. He'll get back on track once a bottom feeder team comes along. Every player puts up better stats against garbage teams.
When Kirk lead us back against GB and threw a pick that should have cost us the game, those numbers were not included in his garbage time stats. I only included stats from losses.
Cook has 73 yards total, and averages 3.2 YPA in garbage time since he entered the league.
Dak actually put his team ahead on his final real drive in the 4th. He had 400+ yards, 3 TDs and might have won against the best team in football if his kicker hadn't missed an extra point and a chipshot FG. What an absurd take.
It also isn't that Kirk has a losing record against winning teams, it is that he pretty much never wins against them. 3 wins in 3 years against winning teams. Being there is a big difference between being 10-15 versus winning teams and being 3-19 or whatever his total is now. It is the difference between making the playoffs and not making them.
Cousins beat a future HOF QB in his house on the road in a playoff game. We were big dogs. Another garbage stat game for him. You can twist stats anyway you want. Dak got beat because his FG missed a FG. Same thing happened to us but our guy did it multiple times. When Cousins was ripping that Packer D for his garbage stats our coaching staff threw a play out the window to line the ball up. Every thing will show how great Dak is compared to Cousins. Yes Dak will win the division. That makes him a winner. He biggest challenge is Fitznothing. Cousins challenge is Rodgers. Put Dak in any other division and he will have a harder time. He has a cake walk and as usual last night a bigger dog kicked his ####. That 400+ yards were all garbage. That lead to a lose. He didn't do enough for a win. Same thing Kirk always does. Kirk put up garbage stats against the Saints last year when we were booted from the playoff picture. Meaningless yardage, points and stats all made when the game was over which happened on the opening whistle. Any stats in a lose are garbage. They did nothing for a win.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:06 am
Prescott who analyst rate far superior than Cousins also has a losing record against winning teams. Just lost last night against a winner.
I thought Dak played well enough to win last night.
Of course, so did Brady, but at least in terms of QB performance the two looked comparable.
The result of the game is more a reflection of the fact that the result of a game doesn't always come down to which QB played better and instead can be the result of special teams and/or defense. Trying to boil a result like last night's down to the QBs does a disservice to both IMHO.
I think you are demonstrating why using a single game as evidence of a trend is dumb.
If Dak plays close to like he did last night all season the Cowboys will win 10+ games.
So while he lost this game playing well, if he continues to play well his team will win most of their games. If he plays poorly his team won't win as many. There will be exceptions to that, but overall, with a large enough sample size, a QB's record is an indicator of how well he played for his teams.
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:38 am
When Kirk lead us back against GB and threw a pick that should have cost us the game, those numbers were not included in his garbage time stats. I only included stats from losses.
Cook has 73 yards total, and averages 3.2 YPA in garbage time since he entered the league.
Dak actually put his team ahead on his final real drive in the 4th. He had 400+ yards, 3 TDs and might have won against the best team in football if his kicker hadn't missed an extra point and a chipshot FG. What an absurd take.
It also isn't that Kirk has a losing record against winning teams, it is that he pretty much never wins against them. 3 wins in 3 years against winning teams. Being there is a big difference between being 10-15 versus winning teams and being 3-19 or whatever his total is now. It is the difference between making the playoffs and not making them.
Cousins beat a future HOF QB in his house on the road in a playoff game. We were big dogs. Another garbage stat game for him. You can twist stats anyway you want. Dak got beat because his FG missed a FG. Same thing happened to us but our guy did it multiple times. When Cousins was ripping that Packer D for his garbage stats our coaching staff threw a play out the window to line the ball up. Every thing will show how great Dak is compared to Cousins. Yes Dak will win the division. That makes him a winner. He biggest challenge is Fitznothing. Cousins challenge is Rodgers. Put Dak in any other division and he will have a harder time. He has a cake walk and as usual last night a bigger dog kicked his ####. That 400+ yards were all garbage. That lead to a lose. He didn't do enough for a win. Same thing Kirk always does. Kirk put up garbage stats against the Saints last year when we were booted from the playoff picture. Meaningless yardage, points and stats all made when the game was over which happened on the opening whistle. Any stats in a lose are garbage. They did nothing for a win.
Here is my post from page 20. It turned out to be prophetic.
Stump is the Spin Doctor. He will take any information he finds and figure out some way to spin it as negative for Cousins. If he can't figure out how to spin it then he will ignore it or belittle it.
Congrats stump. I'm impressed at how you can find all those points of minutia. You couldn't stand me pointing out that Cousins had better stats then all those guys. Since the regular stats don't show what you want them to you dug deep and found a way to belittle them. That is the very definition of SPIN.
How does Cousins do on Blue Moons after his mother's birthday. Do you got those stats?
No, those are meaningless. Do you think how a QB does on the final drive, when down a score, matters to win totals? Do you think how a QB does against top teams matters to win totals?
Frozen Rope wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:57 pm
VV, the line that divides neurotic from normal is Stumps continued hypnotic fascination with Cousins and trying to bludgeon everyone into submission. I would suggest help for him but he’s too far gone.
My posts are in line with what everyone outside of MN thinks of Cousins. I am not the crazy one here, I am the one pointing out the reality that some just don't want to see.
Keep on spinning. The Vikings could win the next 5 championships with Cousins at QB and you would still find some minuscule stat that proves Cousins sucks. That's called SPIN.
Last edited by VikingsVictorious on Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:06 am
Prescott who analyst rate far superior than Cousins also has a losing record against winning teams. Just lost last night against a winner.
I thought Dak played well enough to win last night.
Of course, so did Brady, but at least in terms of QB performance the two looked comparable.
The result of the game is more a reflection of the fact that the result of a game doesn't always come down to which QB played better and instead can be the result of special teams and/or defense. Trying to boil a result like last night's down to the QBs does a disservice to both IMHO.
Dak didn't lose the game last night. Brady didn't win it. I give the win to the ref with a perfect view of a blatant push off by Godwin and did nothing but swallow his whistle.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:03 am
I think you mean Kyle Brandt. If Gil Brandt were doing the analysis, I might take it seriously. Gil was VP of Player Personnel for the Cowboys during the Tom Landry years. Do you know what Kyle Brandt did to prepare himself to be an analyst? He played a character on Days of Our Lives. That’s right. He was an actor on a soap opera. Brandt has his job because he’s handsome.
This actually made me laugh. I knew it was a "Brandt", but I honestly didn't know Kyle's backstory. Too funny. If I did not know you from this board I would think you're making this up.
Glad to brighten your day a little. And for the record, I do not watch Days of Our Lives. Or any other soap, for that matter.
Brandt also was a producer for Jim Rome’s radio show. Since I consider Jim Rome to be an uninformed idiot of a tool, it hardly seems like the best training ground for serious analysis.
I guarantee you … ask Kay Adams who the Vikings’ No. 1 tight is now that Irv Smith is out, and she couldn’t tell you. Peter Schrager probably can’t name anybody on the O-line except for Brian O’Neill, and him only because he’s been in the news for his new contract extension. These guys aren’t Adam Schefter or Ian Rapaport. They’re pretty studio people whose job it is to entertain.
You and I (and many others on this board) know a lot about the Vikings. The cast of GMFB can’t hold a candle to you when it comes to Vikings knowledge. The only comparative analysis they do is whatever their producers feed them. They’re puppets.
This actually made me laugh. I knew it was a "Brandt", but I honestly didn't know Kyle's backstory. Too funny. If I did not know you from this board I would think you're making this up.
Glad to brighten your day a little. And for the record, I do not watch Days of Our Lives. Or any other soap, for that matter.
Brandt also was a producer for Jim Rome’s radio show. Since I consider Jim Rome to be an uninformed idiot of a tool, it hardly seems like the best training ground for serious analysis.
I guarantee you … ask Kay Adams who the Vikings’ No. 1 tight is now that Irv Smith is out, and she couldn’t tell you. Peter Schrager probably can’t name anybody on the O-line except for Brian O’Neill, and him only because he’s been in the news for his new contract extension. These guys aren’t Adam Schefter or Ian Rapaport. They’re pretty studio people whose job it is to entertain.
You and I (and many others on this board) know a lot about the Vikings. The cast of GMFB can’t hold a candle to you when it comes to Vikings knowledge. The only comparative analysis they do is whatever their producers feed them. They’re puppets.
Jim Rome was the undisputed tool of all sports media until undisputed host Skip Bayless came along to give him competition. When he had Jim Everett on his show and called him Cris he was very deserving of an #### whooping.
Last edited by VikingsVictorious on Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:06 am
Prescott who analyst rate far superior than Cousins also has a losing record against winning teams. Just lost last night against a winner.
I thought Dak played well enough to win last night.
Of course, so did Brady, but at least in terms of QB performance the two looked comparable.
The result of the game is more a reflection of the fact that the result of a game doesn't always come down to which QB played better and instead can be the result of special teams and/or defense. Trying to boil a result like last night's down to the QBs does a disservice to both IMHO.
Dak played well but he lost. I know games come down to more than just a QB. My point was that Stump pointed out that Cousins has a losing record against winning teams and I pointed out so does Dak who is rated in the media as much better than Cousins. Dak will win his division and I don't think Cousins will beat out Rodgers. Dak needs to beat out Fitzwhatever. But all stats in the NFL get twisted because teams play different schedules. I would give our team a much better chance at winning the East than the Central division. I think most would also. Even during the draft I thought for sure that Jones would be the pick and Stump pointed out you must think Cousins sucks then. No when a QB has great talent and falls make that pick. That's loading up at the most important position. Speilman again left us with nothing in the wings. And yes I'm not a fan of the Mond pick. He was over drafted. He can't get off the primary target quick enough at this point. Stares it down until he gets open. Don't even take a look at the next guy. It's a tuck the ball and take off if he doesn't get open. That won't work at the pro level. College sure. Jones could also turn out to be a bum. He hasn't played a down yet.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:35 pm
Jim Rome was the undisputed tool of all sports media until undefeated host Skip Bayless came along to give him competition. When he had Jim Everett on his show and called him Cris he was very deserving of an #### whooping.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:10 pm
And yes I'm not a fan of the Mond pick. He was over drafted. He can't get off the primary target quick enough at this point. Stares it down until he gets open. Don't even take a look at the next guy. It's a tuck the ball and take off if he doesn't get open. That won't work at the pro level.
To be fair to Mond, he needs time to learn and mature. It's pretty rare to see a QB step into the pro game and be able to do everything a more experienced QB can do. When those players do come around they're often able to do it because they have unique physical abilities that overcome their lack of experience.
Only time will tell if Mond was over- or under-drafted. His best chance of succeeding at this point is if he can sit and watch and learn and then actually uses that time and puts in the effort necessary to learn. If he does that I think he's got the physical capabilities to be a very good NFL QB. Could use some meat on his bones, but he's got the physical traits you want to see in a NFL QB.
