Championship Roster

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

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StumpHunter
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:42 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:04 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:43 pm

I pointed out facts, you stated those facts indicate I am making an argument I did not make. Hence: Strawman.
The way I see it you're saying he only put up good numbers because he started a lot of games. I'd say he put up good numbers because he started a lot of games. Negative way of looking at it or positive way of looking at it. I don't believe I misrepresented you in any way.
There is no negative or positive way of looking at it. Comparing raw production over a 5 year time period to guys who weren't even in the NFL 4 years ago is dishonest.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:59 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:42 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:04 pm

The way I see it you're saying he only put up good numbers because he started a lot of games. I'd say he put up good numbers because he started a lot of games. Negative way of looking at it or positive way of looking at it. I don't believe I misrepresented you in any way.
There is no negative or positive way of looking at it. Comparing raw production over a 5 year time period to guys who weren't even in the NFL 4 years ago is dishonest.
Obviously players that play more have larger raw production. Do you want to completely throw out everything Brett Favre has done because he did it in more plays than everybody else. Staying healthy and maintaining a starting job is a good trait in QBs. You act like the good things Cousins does shouldn't count because he played a lot. Ridiculous and dishonest.

He plays a lot because he's good and stays healthy. Favre is a pretty good comparison.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by vikeinmontana » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:09 am

You guys are grumpy. :lol:
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VikingsVictorious
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:00 pm

vikeinmontana wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:09 am
You guys are grumpy. :lol:
Guilty as charged. When I see somebody relentlessly trashing our QB I take offense. :govikes: :v): :smilevike:
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by Thaumaturgist » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:43 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:00 pm
When I see somebody relentlessly trashing our QB I take offense. :govikes: :v): :smilevike:
. Well, try not to, it's not personal, so don't make it that way. Kirk can be very polarizing, so I can see both sides.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingLord » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:55 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:00 pm
vikeinmontana wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:09 am
You guys are grumpy. :lol:
Guilty as charged. When I see somebody relentlessly trashing our QB I take offense. :govikes: :v): :smilevike:
While I don't agree with Stump on Cousins, I also do see the point he's trying to make and I don't think he's making it in bad faith. I believe he wants the Vikings to be successful as badly as any of us do. I believe if they won the Superbowl with Cousins at QB he'd be as happy as I would be.

We just disagree to some extent on what is holding them back from winning. I actually enjoy the debate and for me the difference of opinion is a sign encouraging me to think more about my position and stay open to the possibility that I'm off-base. I don't see it as a negative as long as the focus stays on the subject and everyone involved is respectful of each other.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:26 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:55 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:00 pm

Guilty as charged. When I see somebody relentlessly trashing our QB I take offense. :govikes: :v): :smilevike:
While I don't agree with Stump on Cousins, I also do see the point he's trying to make and I don't think he's making it in bad faith. I believe he wants the Vikings to be successful as badly as any of us do. I believe if they won the Superbowl with Cousins at QB he'd be as happy as I would be.

We just disagree to some extent on what is holding them back from winning. I actually enjoy the debate and for me the difference of opinion is a sign encouraging me to think more about my position and stay open to the possibility that I'm off-base. I don't see it as a negative as long as the focus stays on the subject and everyone involved is respectful of each other.
I do think it's in bad faith. He disregards all Cousins good points and IMO often manufactures negativity where there should be none. Example when Cousins is a top performer he disregards it because Cousins has played a lot. His contention that since Cousins hasn't won a title yet that means he can't do it. He states that as if it's a fact. Stuff like that.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by Thaumaturgist » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:53 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:55 pm

While I don't agree with Stump on Cousins, I also do see the point he's trying to make and I don't think he's making it in bad faith. I believe he wants the Vikings to be successful as badly as any of us do. I believe if they won the Superbowl with Cousins at QB he'd be as happy as I would be.

We just disagree to some extent on what is holding them back from winning. I actually enjoy the debate and for me the difference of opinion is a sign encouraging me to think more about my position and stay open to the possibility that I'm off-base. I don't see it as a negative as long as the focus stays on the subject and everyone involved is respectful of each other.
I've enjoyed both of your takes in this, and I haven't seen any personal attacks in them. These are the type of exchanges that made me want to join years, and years ago. More of this and respectful disagreements are perfectly fine, and actually enjoyable! We can have different opinions on players without attacking one another.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:03 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:26 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:55 pm


While I don't agree with Stump on Cousins, I also do see the point he's trying to make and I don't think he's making it in bad faith. I believe he wants the Vikings to be successful as badly as any of us do. I believe if they won the Superbowl with Cousins at QB he'd be as happy as I would be.

We just disagree to some extent on what is holding them back from winning. I actually enjoy the debate and for me the difference of opinion is a sign encouraging me to think more about my position and stay open to the possibility that I'm off-base. I don't see it as a negative as long as the focus stays on the subject and everyone involved is respectful of each other.
I do think it's in bad faith. He disregards all Cousins good points and IMO often manufactures negativity where there should be none. Example when Cousins is a top performer he disregards it because Cousins has played a lot. His contention that since Cousins hasn't won a title yet that means he can't do it. He states that as if it's a fact. Stuff like that.
When have I even come close to that argument? Come on man.

There are ways a team can do to increase their odds of winning it all, things that every team should do. One of those ways is to get a QB as good as Mahomes or Brady. The other way, the way that gives you lesser odds than the first, if a team doesn't have that QB, is to use the large chunk of salary cap saved because you are spending less on a lesser QB, and to build a team even Ponder could win with.

My contention is that not even the most prolific Cousins apologist would argue he was close to as good as Brady or Mahomes, so we need to go with option #2. An option that is impossible because our lesser QB is the highest paid QB from 2018-2022.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:25 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:03 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:26 pm

I do think it's in bad faith. He disregards all Cousins good points and IMO often manufactures negativity where there should be none. Example when Cousins is a top performer he disregards it because Cousins has played a lot. His contention that since Cousins hasn't won a title yet that means he can't do it. He states that as if it's a fact. Stuff like that.
When have I even come close to that argument? Come on man.

There are ways a team can do to increase their odds of winning it all, things that every team should do. One of those ways is to get a QB as good as Mahomes or Brady. The other way, the way that gives you lesser odds than the first, if a team doesn't have that QB, is to use the large chunk of salary cap saved because you are spending less on a lesser QB, and to build a team even Ponder could win with.

My contention is that not even the most prolific Cousins apologist would argue he was close to as good as Brady or Mahomes, so we need to go with option #2. An option that is impossible because our lesser QB is the highest paid QB from 2018-2022.
I'm not going to go back and check posts from over the last two years, but my recollection is you said Cousins can't win a title. You may not have said it's because he hasn't won one yet, but who cares. You said IIRC that Cousins can't win a Super Bowl. By process of elimination you said that Cousins can't win a Super Bowl in this very post. Here's the logical argument based on your premises.

Premise 1: A team needs a superstar QB or a low paid QB to have more than the slightest chance to win it all.
Premise 2: Cousins is not a Superstar QB
Premise 3: Cousins is not a low paid QB.
Conclusion: The Vikings chances to win it all with Cousins as our QB are minuscule.

I disagree with your first premise categorically. Premise 2. Debatable. IMO he's a top 10 QB and that shouldn't be up for debate. IMO he's a top 5 QB but that's debatable.
Your Premise 3 I fully agree with. I can't support your conclusion due to my disagreement with your first two premises.

Here's My premises and conclusion.
Premise 1: A well rounded team with a good to very good QB has a good chance to win the Super Bowl.
Premise 2: Cousins is a good to very good QB
Premise 3: By all appearances the Vikings have a top 10 offense and a top 10 defense for this season.
Conclusion: The Vikings have a good chance to win the Super Bowl.

Are my proposed premises and conclusion for you accurate? Can you live with me proposing those as your stance?

I believe you will disagree with my premise 2 and might even disagree with my premises 1 and 3.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingLord » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:52 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:26 pm
He disregards all Cousins good points and IMO often manufactures negativity where there should be none.
Stump can (and has) spoken for himself, but I've seen him acknowledge that Cousins is quite good facing passing defenses that rank in the bottom half, while he struggles against pass defenses that rank in the top half. So he has acknowledged that Cousins is good, but given those stats, he hasn't played as well against better competition, which unfortunately is the type of competition QBs face in the playoffs. I think he's being fair to Cousins and basing his points on stats even if the stats don't tell the whole picture. That's what posters like Stump, you and I are here to help do - fill out the picture and hopefully get a more complete understanding of it, or at least some food for further thought.

The bad faith thing implies he has a personal bone to pick that overrides his desire to see the team win. I just don't think any Vikings fans on this board feel that strongly about an individual player that they wish the team to fail just to see that player gone. Maybe when Favre was the QB there were one or two who just couldn't shake that he was a Packer before joining the Vikings, but Cousins doesn't have that kind of history. His contract is about the only reason I could see someone thinking failure is the better option, but the Vikings can't escape from that if they cut him so for at least the rest of this season it's better to focus on his upside potential, or focus on the future at the position which should be Kellen Mond and his upside.

I really enjoy the debates that happen on here, and I understand why some of them can get personal at times. We all are frustrated to some degree with various aspects of the team, and I think we are all tempted to reach our own conclusions about what is wrong and how it can be fixed so the Vikings win the next 10 Superbowls in a row. I know I do that, and that is why I find this board so interesting, because not only can I learn a lot from my fellow Vikings brothers and sisters here, but I can see things from other points of view I wouldn't have considered or might have overlooked.

Whatever it is, I truly value this board and the people who take the time to post their thoughts here, even if those are thoughts I don't necessarily agree with or understand.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingLord » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:01 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:03 pm
My contention is that not even the most prolific Cousins apologist would argue he was close to as good as Brady or Mahomes, so we need to go with option #2. An option that is impossible because our lesser QB is the highest paid QB from 2018-2022.
Its not impossible - the GM just has to draft really, really well and be very successful with extensions and free agency.

I think there is a good chance here that the 2021 Vikings are close to that kind of team. They've got all the skill positions on offense covered with top-tier talent. The OL is a question mark, but the odds favor them surprising to the upside given the young talent that is on the line now. Defensively, they're solid across most of the DL, at LB, and have done a lot to improve the experience and talent in the secondary compared to last year's team. Good reason to believe they can be good enough overall on defense to challenge as well. Even special teams has been shaken up and while I can't say they should be better than last year, it's hard to believe they could be worse.

So yeah, I think 2021's Vikings could be the kind of complete, all-around team that can win with Cousins. Not because of Cousins and not despite him, but good enough to win with him and his strengths and weaknesses.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:21 am

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:01 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:03 pm
My contention is that not even the most prolific Cousins apologist would argue he was close to as good as Brady or Mahomes, so we need to go with option #2. An option that is impossible because our lesser QB is the highest paid QB from 2018-2022.
Its not impossible - the GM just has to draft really, really well and be very successful with extensions and free agency.

I think there is a good chance here that the 2021 Vikings are close to that kind of team. They've got all the skill positions on offense covered with top-tier talent. The OL is a question mark, but the odds favor them surprising to the upside given the young talent that is on the line now. Defensively, they're solid across most of the DL, at LB, and have done a lot to improve the experience and talent in the secondary compared to last year's team. Good reason to believe they can be good enough overall on defense to challenge as well. Even special teams has been shaken up and while I can't say they should be better than last year, it's hard to believe they could be worse.

So yeah, I think 2021's Vikings could be the kind of complete, all-around team that can win with Cousins. Not because of Cousins and not despite him, but good enough to win with him and his strengths and weaknesses.
Given my choice of the Vikings winning because of one player or because of the whole team I will choose the whole team. I honestly don't think any team has ever won because of one player. When we win the Super Bowl it will be because of Cook, Thielen, Hunter, Jefferson, Harrison Smith, Erik Kendricks, Christian Darrisaw, Garrett Bradbury, Wyatt Davis, Anthony Barr, Dalvin Tomlinson, Sheldon Richardson, Michael Pierce, Patrick Peterson, Irv Smith, Cam Dantzler, DJ Wonnum, Stephen Weatherly, Harrison Hand, Kene Nwangwu, Alexander Mattison, Cleveland, O'Neil, Captain Kirk, and all the backups.
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingLord » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:42 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:21 am
Given my choice of the Vikings winning because of one player or because of the whole team I will choose the whole team. I honestly don't think any team has ever won because of one player. When we win the Super Bowl it will be because of Cook, Thielen, Hunter, Jefferson, Harrison Smith, Erik Kendricks, Christian Darrisaw, Garrett Bradbury, Wyatt Davis, Anthony Barr, Dalvin Tomlinson, Sheldon Richardson, Michael Pierce, Patrick Peterson, Irv Smith, Cam Dantzler, DJ Wonnum, Stephen Weatherly, Harrison Hand, Kene Nwangwu, Alexander Mattison, Cleveland, O'Neil, Captain Kirk, and all the backups.
And the refs... Can't forget the refs...

:lol:

I agree with you. No team has ever won with one player, but teams do win because of exceptional plays by individual players.

I'm really excited about this season. I just have a feeling this is going to be our year...
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Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:45 am

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:42 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:21 am
Given my choice of the Vikings winning because of one player or because of the whole team I will choose the whole team. I honestly don't think any team has ever won because of one player. When we win the Super Bowl it will be because of Cook, Thielen, Hunter, Jefferson, Harrison Smith, Erik Kendricks, Christian Darrisaw, Garrett Bradbury, Wyatt Davis, Anthony Barr, Dalvin Tomlinson, Sheldon Richardson, Michael Pierce, Patrick Peterson, Irv Smith, Cam Dantzler, DJ Wonnum, Stephen Weatherly, Harrison Hand, Kene Nwangwu, Alexander Mattison, Cleveland, O'Neil, Captain Kirk, and all the backups.
And the refs... Can't forget the refs...

:lol:

I agree with you. No team has ever won with one player, but teams do win because of exceptional plays by individual players.

I'm really excited about this season. I just have a feeling this is going to be our year...
IMO no other team has a better shot than us of winning it all this season.
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