Cousins Trade Rumors

[J. Kapp 11]

You look at the top 5 teams in that list and there is a clear common factor: A great QB.

Harbaugh might be the most underrated HC in the NFL with what he has done with less than ideal QB play for most of his time in Baltimore.

Yeah "great QBs" in the top 5 but look at the SB wins outside of New England in your given time frame.

SB wins are as follows for those top 5 (outside of NE):
Packers: 1
Steelers: 0
Seahawks: 1
New Orleans: 0

.....But hey, you need a great QB to win a SB!

Just curious, who is your projected "great QB we missed out on"? Jordan love? Or will miss out on this draft?

My point was that to win a SB, you have to get to a SB. We haven’t been to one in 44 years.

To get to a SB, you have to win in the regular season. We’ve averaged 8 wins a year for 20 years. And I didn’t even bother with the 1990s, which was pretty much a black hole except for ‘98.

We can talk “SB wins” all we want, but the fact is that most of the teams you mention above lost to New England in their SB appearances. We’ve never seen a franchise dominate like they did, and we may never again. The common factor in all of those NE wins most decidedly WAS a great QB. The greatest to ever play. Sunday’s win for TB should make that painfully apparent.

I think it’s impossible to know whether Kirk Cousins can lead this team on a deep playoff run because the team in its entirety is so mediocre.

[S197]

It seems like the one thing that everyone is in agreement upon, is a decent o-line is crucial. So it begs the question, if Rick hasn't been able to construct a decent one in over a decade, why does he still have a job? Paying Cousins more (a near guarantee) certainly isn't going to help. Building through the draft doesn't seem to be paying off. We've had numerous changes at the position and coordinator levels.

So what's the hope from the "on the cusp" crowd? That he suddenly stops drafting Bradbury's in the 1st, Elflein's in the 3rd, and Beavers/Clemmings' in the 4th? That he stops signing FA's like Remmers, Dozier, etc.? I mean, we're not talking about a year or two, or three, this is a major systemic problem. And it is a pre-Zimmer problem. There is only one common denominator.

[VikingLord]

It seems like the one thing that everyone is in agreement upon, is a decent o-line is crucial. So it begs the question, if Rick hasn't been able to construct a decent one in over a decade, why does he still have a job? Paying Cousins more (a near guarantee) certainly isn't going to help. Building through the draft doesn't seem to be paying off. We've had numerous changes at the position and coordinator levels.

So what's the hope from the "on the cusp" crowd? That he suddenly stops drafting Bradbury's in the 1st, Elflein's in the 3rd, and Beavers/Clemmings' in the 4th? That he stops signing FA's like Remmers, Dozier, etc.? I mean, we're not talking about a year or two, or three, this is a major systemic problem. And it is a pre-Zimmer problem. There is only one common denominator.

I don't know if I'm a member of the "on the cusp" crowd. If I am, I'd prefer we be referred to as the "on the cusp crew". Sort of like the message board version of the Columbus Crew of MLS. I've always like the Columbus Crew, and I think I would like being a member of the Vikings Message Board On-The-Cusp Crew if there were such a group.

But to your question...

This isn't about drafting individual players as much as it is getting the most out of the position group, and I think that clearly hasn't happened. Usually in team sports when individual players stand out when they play as part of position groups, positively or negatively, that's a sign of a lack of cohesion among the players who make up the group. I can think of no position group in any sport where this is more true than OL.

We keep looking at it as a component problem, but it's not. I don't believe the Vikings have athletically deficient players along the OL (well, except for Samia, who really can't move at the level required to play in the NFL IMHO). I think the individual athletes are good enough to get the job done. That they're not getting it done comes down to coaching and player leadership IMHO. Coaches are the ones who inspire and find ways to get the most out of those individual athletes. On the field, it's up to the athletes themselves to do the rest, to execute the schemes as called, to read and react to what the defense is doing, to play technically sound, and ultimately, to hold themselves and their teammates accountable.

I can't even name a single guy on the Tampa Bay offensive line. Even after the Superbowl. The only Bucs OL who stood out to me was the center and he stood out because of the high snap, not because of any positive play he made. The Buc OL played like a unit - there were no obviously superior players and no obviously inferior players. And come to think of it, Brady has had a LOT of OL's like that over the years when he played with New England as well. Maybe QB leadership or the inspiration of playing for a QB like Brady helps too.

I just think it's too easy to boil it down to the individuals when OL requires consummate team play. Spielman can draft OL all throughout the draft. He can trade for OL, sign OL in FA, etc., but none of that is going to do any good if the coaching and player leadership isn't there.

If it is there, you can take a group of more or less average OL players and they can play great as a unit.

My guess is the Bucs OL that just won the Superbowl isn't full of 1st rounders either. I'm not going to look but I'd be surprised if it were.

[StumpHunter]

I can't even name a single guy on the Tampa Bay offensive line. Even after the Superbowl. The only Bucs OL who stood out to me was the center and he stood out because of the high snap, not because of any positive play he made. The Buc OL played like a unit - there were no obviously superior players and no obviously inferior players. And come to think of it, Brady has had a LOT of OL's like that over the years when he played with New England as well. Maybe QB leadership or the inspiration of playing for a QB like Brady helps too.

Here is how a QB can help his oline:

Brady's average time to throw in the SB was 2.14 seconds and almost 75% of his passes happened in under 2.5 seconds. Unless a guy goes unblocked if a QB is getting rid of the ball in under 2.5 seconds there is virtually no way for the defense to get any sort of pressure.

You could have put the Vikings Oline with Samia and Elf at LG and RG in front of Brady and it would have made 0 impact on the outcome of the game and we would have been talking about how well they blocked for Brady.

[J. Kapp 11]

OK guys. Just read this today. From Adam Schefter.

During trade talks to try to acquire Matthew Stafford, the Carolina Panthers made a serious offer to the Lions of their eighth overall pick, a fifth-round pick and quarterback Teddy Bridgewater, per league sources. Detroit opted to take the Rams offer. Carolina still looking.

So ... Carolina was willing to give up Teddy, the No. 8 pick, and a 5th-rounder for Matt Stafford. Many put Cousins and Stafford in the same tier as QBs.

If you were Vikings GM, and they made the same offer for Kirk Cousins, would you take it?

[S197]

I don't know if I'm a member of the "on the cusp" crowd. If I am, I'd prefer we be referred to as the "on the cusp crew". Sort of like the message board version of the Columbus Crew of MLS. I've always like the Columbus Crew, and I think I would like being a member of the Vikings Message Board On-The-Cusp Crew if there were such a group.

You're going to have to negotiate with the cusp crowd board of directors. Which I just executed a hostile takeover on. But I'm willing to listen, my opening offer is renaming rights for 1 billion Dogecoin.

This isn't about drafting individual players as much as it is getting the most out of the position group, and I think that clearly hasn't happened. Usually in team sports when individual players stand out when they play as part of position groups, positively or negatively, that's a sign of a lack of cohesion among the players who make up the group. I can think of no position group in any sport where this is more true than OL.

Yes and no. I think Willie Beavers isn't playing on another team because he's just not very good. Dru Samia will likely join him. Mike Remmers found a home, but as a backup tackle, not as a starting guard. So you have misidentification of individual talent and a lack of cohesion. Perhaps Bradbury would look better with better personnel to his left/right but a 1st round center should be elevating his fellow lineman's play, not leaning on them. It's so incredibly rare to draft a center high in the 1st that when you do, you better damn well be sure he's exceptional. Bradbury is far from that.

We keep looking at it as a component problem, but it's not. I don't believe the Vikings have athletically deficient players along the OL (well, except for Samia, who really can't move at the level required to play in the NFL IMHO). I think the individual athletes are good enough to get the job done. That they're not getting it done comes down to coaching and player leadership IMHO. Coaches are the ones who inspire and find ways to get the most out of those individual athletes. On the field, it's up to the athletes themselves to do the rest, to execute the schemes as called, to read and react to what the defense is doing, to play technically sound, and ultimately, to hold themselves and their teammates accountable.

Except we've had this problem before Zimmer. And with a new offensive coordinator every year. And multiple O-line coaches. I'm not saying coaching isn't part of the problem but you're quite literally holding everyone accountable except for the one person whose tenure spans longer than all of them. Rick is either not very good at what he does or is incredibly unlucky in that he's an offensive lineman drafting genius that has continually been hamstrung by poor coaches and unmotivated players.

My guess is the Bucs OL that just won the Superbowl isn't full of 1st rounders either. I'm not going to look but I'd be surprised if it were.

Wirfs was drafted 13th overall. Donovan Smith was taken in the 2nd. Marpet was also taken in the 2nd. Ryan Jensen was drafted in the 6th. Stinnie was a UDFA. That's a significant amount of draft capital dedicated to the OL. Spielman has put in as much or more draft capital into the OL, the difference is he has missed far more often.

[StumpHunter]

OK guys. Just read this today. From Adam Schefter.

During trade talks to try to acquire Matthew Stafford, the Carolina Panthers made a serious offer to the Lions of their eighth overall pick, a fifth-round pick and quarterback Teddy Bridgewater, per league sources. Detroit opted to take the Rams offer. Carolina still looking.

So ... Carolina was willing to give up Teddy, the No. 8 pick, and a 5th-rounder for Matt Stafford. Many put Cousins and Stafford in the same tier as QBs.

If you were Vikings GM, and they made the same offer for Kirk Cousins, would you take it?

I saw that too and I am not sure why Detroit didn't take that offer. The 8th overall this year is better than 2 future 1sts that are unlikely to be in the top 10.

I also don't understand Carolina's thought process with that trade. They would be bringing Stafford from a place where he couldn't win with solid WRs and a bad defense to a place with solid WRs and a bad defense. Maybe they think CMC could be the difference?

Better to start over with a rookie this year for them and if that doesn't work out a rookie QB next year when you are drafting in the top 10 again.

[Husker Vike]

I don't think Bradbury is that bad, he has back up at best talent on either side of him.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I don't think Bradbury is that bad, he has back up at best talent on either side of him.

I've said that for quite some time now and also was saying that when Elflein was playing center. I dont think it helps at all when you're in a zone blocking scheme and surrounded by swinging doors on each side of you. I feel like if you see better guards/guard play, you'll see Bradbury improve.

[VikingLord]

I can't even name a single guy on the Tampa Bay offensive line. Even after the Superbowl. The only Bucs OL who stood out to me was the center and he stood out because of the high snap, not because of any positive play he made. The Buc OL played like a unit - there were no obviously superior players and no obviously inferior players. And come to think of it, Brady has had a LOT of OL's like that over the years when he played with New England as well. Maybe QB leadership or the inspiration of playing for a QB like Brady helps too.

Here is how a QB can help his oline:

Brady's average time to throw in the SB was 2.14 seconds and almost 75% of his passes happened in under 2.5 seconds. Unless a guy goes unblocked if a QB is getting rid of the ball in under 2.5 seconds there is virtually no way for the defense to get any sort of pressure.

You could have put the Vikings Oline with Samia and Elf at LG and RG in front of Brady and it would have made 0 impact on the outcome of the game and we would have been talking about how well they blocked for Brady.

OK, so who besides Tom Brady is going to be able to do that consistently?

It sure isn't Deshaun Watson. Not Aaron Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Patrick Mahomes or Drew Brees, all of whom saw their seasons end short of the Superbowl and who are considered to be among the best QBs in the game.

So short of the Vikings somehow getting Tom Brady this offseason, the only answer for Spielman and the Vikings to improve the situation at QB is to improve the situation at OL. If they get a "better" QB, that doesn't fix the problem, because even those "better" QBs aren't going to be able to get the ball out as consistently fast as they need to against defenses that can rush the passer.

[CharVike]

I don't think Bradbury is that bad, he has back up at best talent on either side of him.

Bradbury has been ranked as one of the worst centers and people believe it. These sites that do the rankings don't know the scheme or the line calls or audibles that were called every play so they are making stuff up for a click. I have seen him pushed flat on his back several times which indicates he lacks a base. That was indicated in his scouting reports. It is also a reflection of this wuss scheme we run that calls for smaller quicker guys. I liked how Green did it with his right side of Dixon and Stringer. That was 700 ilbs of mass. That's many years ago also. They wore people out. They also got beat to like every player. I'd prefer the bigger guys but you can win multiple ways. Bradbury is ok. Our entire lines is ranked as bad by these sites. Somehow we get yards and had the number 4 offense. Some feel Cousins is a bum and our OL blows. So I guess Cook did it all himself or Thielen or Rudy or whoever you want to pick. Every team has OL problems. With the CAP a team can't keep a 5 piece HOF OL together. Before the Cheifs OL breakdown I was reading that the line was a concern for several years. Even that LT they have was the 1st pick in the draft. He's no world beater. Never was never will be. Could we do better than Bradbury sure. We can upgrade all of them and it wouldn't hurt. The Giants signed some high priced FA OL guys. That didn't do to much. Did nothing really. Bradbury is cheap and holds his own. Just not what I look for.

[VikingLord]

You're going to have to negotiate with the cusp crowd board of directors. Which I just executed a hostile takeover on. But I'm willing to listen, my opening offer is renaming rights for 1 billion Dogecoin.

Yes and no. I think Willie Beavers isn't playing on another team because he's just not very good. Dru Samia will likely join him. Mike Remmers found a home, but as a backup tackle, not as a starting guard. So you have misidentification of individual talent and a lack of cohesion. Perhaps Bradbury would look better with better personnel to his left/right but a 1st round center should be elevating his fellow lineman's play, not leaning on them. It's so incredibly rare to draft a center high in the 1st that when you do, you better damn well be sure he's exceptional. Bradbury is far from that.

Maybe, but my core point is that if individual OL are standing out, positively or negatively, that's a sign the position group is not performing well as a unit. That doesn't absolve the individual players or mean you can just plug anyone in at OL, but at the pro level it's reasonable to assume that any player capable of winning a starting spot on any OL should be expected to perform competently consistently.

Except we've had this problem before Zimmer. And with a new offensive coordinator every year. And multiple O-line coaches. I'm not saying coaching isn't part of the problem but you're quite literally holding everyone accountable except for the one person whose tenure spans longer than all of them. Rick is either not very good at what he does or is incredibly unlucky in that he's an offensive lineman drafting genius that has continually been hamstrung by poor coaches and unmotivated players.

Maybe. Maybe Spielman finds gems and impact players everywhere in the draft except at CB and OL.

Wirfs was drafted 13th overall. Donovan Smith was taken in the 2nd. Marpet was also taken in the 2nd. Ryan Jensen was drafted in the 6th. Stinnie was a UDFA. That's a significant amount of draft capital dedicated to the OL. Spielman has put in as much or more draft capital into the OL, the difference is he has missed far more often.

Well, it doesn't seem like he's missed far more often than the average GM. I think most NFL teams probably have OL issues equivalent to the Vikings on average. If anything, Spielman has failed to build a consistently dominant OL, but it's hard to say he's consistently built a sub-par OL either. They're likely average overall during his tenure.

[StumpHunter]

Here is how a QB can help his oline:

Brady's average time to throw in the SB was 2.14 seconds and almost 75% of his passes happened in under 2.5 seconds. Unless a guy goes unblocked if a QB is getting rid of the ball in under 2.5 seconds there is virtually no way for the defense to get any sort of pressure.

You could have put the Vikings Oline with Samia and Elf at LG and RG in front of Brady and it would have made 0 impact on the outcome of the game and we would have been talking about how well they blocked for Brady.

OK, so who besides Tom Brady is going to be able to do that consistently?

It sure isn't Deshaun Watson. Not Aaron Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Patrick Mahomes or Drew Brees, all of whom saw their seasons end short of the Superbowl and who are considered to be among the best QBs in the game.

Brees absolutely could up until these past couple of seasons when his arm just went to crap. Manning did the same thing when he was playing. Getting rid of the ball quickly is a skill pocket passers require to be great. A pocket passer who doesn't do that well is pretty much doomed to fail in the playoffs when they eventually face a defense that even the best of O lines can't handle.

So short of the Vikings somehow getting Tom Brady this offseason, the only answer for Spielman and the Vikings to improve the situation at QB is to improve the situation at OL. If they get a "better" QB, that doesn't fix the problem, because even those "better" QBs aren't going to be able to get the ball out as consistently fast as they need to against defenses that can rush the passer.

First of all, getting rid of the ball quickly is just one way to handle less than perfect line play. Extending plays with your legs is another which is why Watson would have more success with this line than Cousins had.

Secondly, if you can't get a great QB like Watson you do the next best thing and get that great team to put around a less than ideal QB. Something that is much easier when you have 45 million more in cap over 2 seasons and 2 extra 1st round picks that Cousins is sure to get us because he is "not that big of a step down from Watson".

[VikingLord]

First of all, getting rid of the ball quickly is just one way to handle less than perfect line play. Extending plays with your legs is another which is why Watson would have more success with this line than Cousins had.

I assume you'd agree that Mahomes is good at extending plays with his legs too?

How did that work out for him against the Bucs? He wasn't able to compensate for his porous OL.

Secondly, if you can't get a great QB like Watson you do the next best thing and get that great team to put around a less than ideal QB. Something that is much easier when you have 45 million more in cap over 2 seasons and 2 extra 1st round picks that Cousins is sure to get us because he is "not that big of a step down from Watson".

If Spielman can improve the QB position at reasonable cost, he should absolutely do it.

From where I sit, though, that won't be easy to do because teams who have franchise QBs don't give them up in the first place, and if by some true miracle a team does decide to give one up, the competition for said franchise QB will drive the cost of acquiring him so high that the team who ends up with the "winning bid" is going to have a heck of a time surrounding that QB with the talent needed to win a Superbowl, no matter how individually great the QB is. Such a move is a "win-now, we-just-need-a-running-back" mentality. From what I'm reading from a variety of posters on this board, the Vikings are currently constructed are far from such a team, and need a change at many more positions to become competitive.

As for the veteran franchise QBs who do change teams, Tampa got Brady because Brady was a FA and elected for a chance of scenery. The Vikings in 2009 got Favre the same way. Great QBs otherwise don't change hands. The fact that Stafford got traded just tells me the Lions know he's not the long-term answer at QB. Wentz is reportedly on the block for the same reason, and if Watson is truly on the block, that says "Houston, we have a problem" more than it indicates the Texans really think they have a franchise QB who is just not happy there..

[RandyMoss84]

Yeah "great QBs" in the top 5 but look at the SB wins outside of New England in your given time frame.

SB wins are as follows for those top 5 (outside of NE):
Packers: 1
Steelers: 0
Seahawks: 1
New Orleans: 0

.....But hey, you need a great QB to win a SB!

Just curious, who is your projected "great QB we missed out on"? Jordan love? Or will miss out on this draft?

My point was that to win a SB, you have to get to a SB. We haven’t been to one in 44 years.

To get to a SB, you have to win in the regular season. We’ve averaged 8 wins a year for 20 years. And I didn’t even bother with the 1990s, which was pretty much a black hole except for ‘98.

We can talk “SB wins” all we want, but the fact is that most of the teams you mention above lost to New England in their SB appearances. We’ve never seen a franchise dominate like they did, and we may never again. The common factor in all of those NE wins most decidedly WAS a great QB. The greatest to ever play. Sunday’s win for TB should make that painfully apparent.

I think it’s impossible to know whether Kirk Cousins can lead this team on a deep playoff run because the team in its entirety is so mediocre.

You mean 45 years 2021-1976=45 years