Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

[Fat Stupid Loser]

Denver made him the starter and paid him half of what Cousins is making. So, more like 15 million savings per year. More than Danielle Hunter's salary. Roughly what J.J. Watt makes per year.

Well, that didn't work out so well for Denver. Or Washington. He had one good year on a really good team. His track record suggests he would not have reproduced that. That's what you get with 15M a year guys. But yeah, you can pay JJ with that extra cash. Its a valid approach. There just aren't many examples of consistently competitive teams with JAG QBs. Perhaps it was the right thing to do for that particular team to keep Case for the next year at that particular time. Don't know. I would have upgraded like Rick did. I think most GMs would also. I'm an internet GM though, so, you know.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

Maybe. That's the other approach. Get a guy, pay him peanuts. Pay everybody else. Works once in a while. Eventually a "successful" QB is going to get paid. Make Case your starter, and not your backup stepping up due to injury, and his salary goes up dramatically. He wins a some playoff games by not screwing up so much that his D can't win, his salary goes up dramatically. I stand by my belief that the 5-10 M saved by having Johnny HoHum at QB will not make a squirt of difference in building the juggernaut team.

I don't think that is the solution either.

The vast majority of SB in the modern era were won by guys on rookie contracts or elite QBs. The perfect storm is an elite QB on a rookie contract, as we saw with Wilson and now Mahomes. Or an elite QB taking a team friendly deal to help them compete for a Super Bowl like Brady did for all those years. Not by the Case Keenum level QBs, or the Kirk Cousins level QBs making 45 million.

We should really be trying to emulate the champions of the NFL instead of the Lions, but it is what it is. Bad teams like the Lions, Raiders, Bengals and Dolphins give out monster contracts to average QBs, and we call that the market value. When in reality it is just the market value for what bad teams pay average QBs. Well run teams pay great QBs a lot of money and compete for SBs, poorly run teams pay average ones a lot of money and compete to go .500.

You're not wrong. That's how hard it is to get a quality QB. Teams do that. They aren't dumb. They know a buttload more than we do. There aren't many of those guys and they are hard to get. I agree with your preferred approach. That's mine also. But that guy has to be there. You have to properly identify him. Those are probably the two easiest variables in the process. Then you have to be in a position to get him, or have enough capital in the current draft and next year's draft to do whatever it takes to get him. Then after mortgaging two drafts you have to hope he doesn't bust as the hit rate on 1st round QBs isn't exactly good. Lot of variables in that process that the front office can't control. Hard man. Harder, I would imagine, to take that kind of risk when you have a QB as good as Kirk already here.

[StumpHunter]

I don't think that is the solution either.

The vast majority of SB in the modern era were won by guys on rookie contracts or elite QBs. The perfect storm is an elite QB on a rookie contract, as we saw with Wilson and now Mahomes. Or an elite QB taking a team friendly deal to help them compete for a Super Bowl like Brady did for all those years. Not by the Case Keenum level QBs, or the Kirk Cousins level QBs making 45 million.

We should really be trying to emulate the champions of the NFL instead of the Lions, but it is what it is. Bad teams like the Lions, Raiders, Bengals and Dolphins give out monster contracts to average QBs, and we call that the market value. When in reality it is just the market value for what bad teams pay average QBs. Well run teams pay great QBs a lot of money and compete for SBs, poorly run teams pay average ones a lot of money and compete to go .500.

You're not wrong. That's how hard it is to get a quality QB. Teams do that. They aren't dumb. They know a buttload more than we do. There aren't many of those guys and they are hard to get. I agree with your preferred approach. That's mine also. But that guy has to be there. You have to properly identify him. Those are probably the two easiest variables in the process. Then you have to be in a position to get him, or have enough capital in the current draft and next year's draft to do whatever it takes to get him. Then after mortgaging two drafts you have to hope he doesn't bust as the hit rate on 1st round QBs isn't exactly good. Lot of variables in that process that the front office can't control. Hard man. Harder, I would imagine, to take that kind of risk when you have a QB as good as Kirk already here.

100% agree. It is tough for a GM to move on from a guy who is safe to take a chance on greatness when it could mean your job.

[Frozen Rope]

Re: Cousins is overpaid for what he brings.

Lets take the bias (negative or positive) away from that part of the conversation and try to look more objectively at it. From the point of view of people that aren't Vikings fans.

Google the phrase "Most overpaid QBs" and see if you can find me a list that doesn't include Cousins. After he was a Viking, of course.

**Edit - I managed to find one article out of about 10 so far that doesn't list him as one of (or the) most overpaid QB.

Well, they are all overpaid. Him being one of the higher paid QBs/players, that is not surprising. Who else would be on the list but the highest paid ones?
And I agree, he is overpaid. But so are the rest of them. The market seems to think a 5-10 QB makes that much. Ridiculous but true.
Spielman certainly can go get the 20th best QB and pay him less, spend on others and build that way. That's one way to do it I guess. Then we can have a D end or something not bringing enough to the table to justify his salary. I don't know. I just don't get the money debate. Cut his salary 5M/year. Big deal. Won't effect anything.

Well said FSL. Then again, you and I are the only two on this board that have seen all his games in DC and Minny and as we have stated before Washington wouldn’t have won 4 or 5 games without Cousins. Talk about Cousins performing better with a running game last year, he had NO running game in DC. There are very few on this board that can name a good running back during Cousins time there, (Alfred Morris has one decent year) and they rode Cousins arm into the playoffs when they were not a playoff team. But the people who are adamant in their belief that we overpaid Cousins are entitled to their opinion. They could also say “we know what he’s done here and he’s not worth it”. The only thing I say to that is you have to be really lucky to get a Mahommes in the draft. The Lamar Jackson‘s usually don’t have a long shelf life. Do I wish Cousins was more mobile? Sure do, but you can pick out something with any quarterback. The front office people are not stupid and are adverse to rolling the dice. That said, Cousins makes a lot of money and is paid to win now. Having written a book here, I think the Vikings are an 8-8 team or 9-7 strictly because the left side of our O line is porous and some real question marks in the secondary.
I was really hoping we would get Trent Williams. He would have made a tremendous difference.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

You're not wrong. That's how hard it is to get a quality QB. Teams do that. They aren't dumb. They know a buttload more than we do. There aren't many of those guys and they are hard to get. I agree with your preferred approach. That's mine also. But that guy has to be there. You have to properly identify him. Those are probably the two easiest variables in the process. Then you have to be in a position to get him, or have enough capital in the current draft and next year's draft to do whatever it takes to get him. Then after mortgaging two drafts you have to hope he doesn't bust as the hit rate on 1st round QBs isn't exactly good. Lot of variables in that process that the front office can't control. Hard man. Harder, I would imagine, to take that kind of risk when you have a QB as good as Kirk already here.

100% agree. It is tough for a GM to move on from a guy who is safe to take a chance on greatness when it could mean your job.

Its almost always a mistake if you make those kind of trades. And one that will set your franchise back years.

You do it if your QB is Fitzmagic or Case or if your stud QB is 38 and the rest of your team is so solid that you believe you won't miss all the first and second rounders you'll have to give up to get him. AND you're really sure this is the guy. Can't miss.

[RandyMoss84]

Well, they are all overpaid. Him being one of the higher paid QBs/players, that is not surprising. Who else would be on the list but the highest paid ones?
And I agree, he is overpaid. But so are the rest of them. The market seems to think a 5-10 QB makes that much. Ridiculous but true.
Spielman certainly can go get the 20th best QB and pay him less, spend on others and build that way. That's one way to do it I guess. Then we can have a D end or something not bringing enough to the table to justify his salary. I don't know. I just don't get the money debate. Cut his salary 5M/year. Big deal. Won't effect anything.

Well said FSL. Then again, you and I are the only two on this board that have seen all his games in DC and Minny and as we have stated before Washington wouldn’t have won 4 or 5 games without Cousins. Talk about Cousins performing better with a running game last year, he had NO running game in DC. There are very few on this board that can name a good running back during Cousins time there, (Alfred Morris has one decent year) and they rode Cousins arm into the playoffs when they were not a playoff team. But the people who are adamant in their belief that we overpaid Cousins are entitled to their opinion. They could also say “we know what he’s done here and he’s not worth it”. The only thing I say to that is you have to be really lucky to get a Mahommes in the draft. The Lamar Jackson‘s usually don’t have a long shelf life. Do I wish Cousins was more mobile? Sure do, but you can pick out something with any quarterback. The front office people are not stupid and are adverse to rolling the dice. That said, Cousins makes a lot of money and is paid to win now. Having written a book here, I think the Vikings are an 8-8 team or 9-7 strictly because the left side of our O line is porous and some real question marks in the secondary.
I was really hoping we would get Trent Williams. He would have made a tremendous difference.

If that happens and misses the playoffs then Zimmer needs to be fired, who would be happy with missing the playoffs every other year? Well, except for VikingsVictorious since he would rather keep Zimmer and miss the playoffs every other year instead of getting a new head coach

[S197]

I think this dynamic shows the most in the correlation between a successful running game and a successful offense. When the run game is clicking, the offense does well. I can't recall a game where the run game struggled and Cousins was able to step up and keep the fire going. There may have been a game or two but the majority of the time, the offense went in the dumpster once teams were able to contain Cook. Particularly in big games like the last game of the last two seasons.

I give Rick some slack on letting Keenum go and paying Cousins. I think based on what they did with Keenum, most would say the Vikings were in the window and an upgrade at QB could have been enough to put them over the edge. That didn't come to fruition, mainly due to Rick's poor handling of the guard situation that offseason, which is absolutely his fault but I see the logic.

What I don't understand is now that we know what Cousins is, the extension for a game manager really doesn't make sense to me. Why not let him play out his contract and earn that extension? Why not grab a guy like Eason who can hold a clipboard for a year and be a pretty good contingency plan if we need to move on?

I think fans are too binary on this. It doesn't boil down to paying for a good QB or saving money for a crap one. You can very much plan ahead for a smooth transition between QB's. Hate to say it but GB has shown how effective this can be with the transition from Favre to Rodgers. And now they're trying to do it again from Rodgers to Love.

Teams who have a lot of cap invested in QB simply are not very successful. It's easy to go back the last few years and see this. Building through the draft and getting younger is a great strategy for keeping a long-term roster competitive. And Rick for the most part does this, with almost sole exception being at QB. The most important position on the field. It baffles me and is why I continue to harp on it. I just don't understand.

I know who Cousins is and it was far more than a game manager. He was one of the best QBs in the NFL. Statistics back this up and the Vikings finishing 5th also back this up. Just need to take another step or two forward in the next couple years.

I think the inherent conservative nature of the offense helps with the stats. Especially with things like accuracy. Bridgewater also fared well in similar stats and a lot of that was because he rarely took a lot of chances. Even the PFF article this thread is based on talks about Cousins and how he is overly conservative in big games.

Our analysis suggests that Kirk Cousins is a step above the average quarterback that teams tend to face on Sunday afternoon but a step below the average quarterback that teams tend to face in prime time. Along with some bad luck in small samples, this explains the large discrepancy of the win-loss records.

The narrative that Cousins can’t deliver when the lights are set on him is not true, though we have found that his decision-making might be suboptimal.

Kirk Cousins is a quarterback who likes to play it relatively safe, as his rate of positive plays and depth of target is below average while he is above average at avoiding negative plays. When you face tougher offenses that can score more points on your defense, you should adjust your aggressiveness towards being more willing to take risks and hence make more positive plays.

Above average here, below average there. What you want to call him is mainly semantics, at the end of the day he lacks the consistency and clutch essentials to be an elite QB and yet he commands an elite price tag.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Re: Cousins is overpaid for what he brings.

Lets take the bias (negative or positive) away from that part of the conversation and try to look more objectively at it. From the point of view of people that aren't Vikings fans.

Google the phrase "Most overpaid QBs" and see if you can find me a list that doesn't include Cousins. After he was a Viking, of course.

**Edit - I managed to find one article out of about 10 so far that doesn't list him as one of (or the) most overpaid QB.

Here is where I disagree. This is simply the QB market. Cousins is currently the 5th highest paid per year on average (according to spotrac). But people say he is "overpaid". Name me a QB that makes LESS than he does per year that is much better or drastically better (not counting guys on rookie contracts still like Mahomes, Jackson, Watson, etc.)??

After Cousins, the list is as follows:

Wentz
Prescott
Ryan
Tannehill
Garoppolo
Stafford
Carr
Brees
Brady
Rivers
Smith
Bridgewater

.....Brees and Brady? Who are both over 40 and arent getting anything more than year to year contracts (or 2 year deals). Outside of that, I couldnt confidently say that any of those QBs are better than Cousins.

Wentz has proved nothing
Prescott is the definition of a QB that cant win big games and he's surrounded with weapons AND an elite OL.
Ryan was a one year wonder that can no longer win
Tannehill just isnt a good passer in any way, shape or form
Garoppolo rode the back of his defense
Stafford has been a consistent loser his entire career
Carr is Carr
Rivers is a turnover machine
Smith might never play again
Teddy is the most conservative/game managing QB in the NFL.

So my question is, who should be making MORE than Cousins (outside of the guys on rookie deals)?? Cousins is making the 5th most of any QB that's been given something outside of a rookie deal. That might sound high, but it's exactly where the market is heading. Mahomes will get a contract that makes Cousins look like a bag of peanuts and surpass him, so that will make him 6th highest paid. Jackson will land a mega deal, Cousins is now 7th highest paid, Prescotts new deal will shatter most, Cousins is now 8th highest paid. Watson will surpass Cousins, making him the 9th highest paid.

Point is, dont you believe Cousins is roughly the 7th-12th best QB in the NFL? I would 100% say yes. So is his contract really THAT out of line given what QBs are making right now? No less given he's in his prime?

The "Cousins is overpaid" argument has really washed out by this point. He's going to continue to drop down the list as rookie contract QBs start landing deals.

So many fans see Cousins is the "5th highest paid QB" and automatically think that means he is the 5th best QB in the league. And that is not at all what that means. He's not overpaid. He's right where he should be if you ask me.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Well, they are all overpaid. Him being one of the higher paid QBs/players, that is not surprising. Who else would be on the list but the highest paid ones?
And I agree, he is overpaid. But so are the rest of them. The market seems to think a 5-10 QB makes that much. Ridiculous but true.
Spielman certainly can go get the 20th best QB and pay him less, spend on others and build that way. That's one way to do it I guess. Then we can have a D end or something not bringing enough to the table to justify his salary. I don't know. I just don't get the money debate. Cut his salary 5M/year. Big deal. Won't effect anything.

Agreed. And if his contract was down just $5 million, that would drop him all the way down to 9th highest paid when it comes to average per year. And what does $5 million really get us? It just shows how close these contracts are in terms of average salary. I mean hell, if he dropped $3 million he'd be the 8th highest paid average. And after Mahomes, Watson, Jackson and Prescott get their deals, that would make him 12th highest paid in the NFL. How in any way, shape or form is that fair? He's better than the 12th best QB in the NFL IMO. That would make him underpaid if anything. Just if you knocked off $3 million on average. Like I said above, Cousins' contract is right where it should be

[S197]

Average salary is meaningless, it’s all about guaranteed money. This article breaks down why Cousins contract is so detrimental.

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/kirk ... -contract/

[Cliff]

Case didn't. He was more successful in 2017 than Cousins has even been. At least in terms of wins. As far as garbage time stats, yeah, Cousins is the master.



Denver made him the starter and paid him half of what Cousins is making. So, more like 15 million savings per year. More than Danielle Hunter's salary. Roughly what J.J. Watt makes per year.

Denver paid Keenum $20 million. Kirk made 28 millions. That's 71.4% not half. No way. Savings would have been $8 million. Not 15.

Keenum's contract was $25 million guaranteed, Cousins was $84 million guaranteed. They might have made somewhat similar money in Case's first year but his contract was *way* more team friendly. We can carve it up however you want, Case got paid way less than Kirk. He would have also been easier to cut had things not worked out.

My point isn't that Case is the better QB. He isn't in most ways (though he is in some ways - poise and having a better nose for escaping trouble specifically). What the Vikings *could* have done was keep Case, draft a QB, and let that QB learn for a year or two. Case probably wasn't "the answer" - even though he has come closer than Cousins to being "the answer", if the problem is getting to the Superbowl.

The problem isn't that Kirk's contract is too high for what the "market" is going for. The problem is Kirk's contract is too high for the Vikings.

[VikingsVictorious]

Denver paid Keenum $20 million. Kirk made 28 millions. That's 71.4% not half. No way. Savings would have been $8 million. Not 15.

Keenum's contract was $25 million guaranteed, Cousins was $84 million guaranteed. They might have made somewhat similar money in Case's first year but his contract was *way* more team friendly. We can carve it up however you want, Case got paid way less than Kirk. He would have also been easier to cut had things not worked out.

My point isn't that Case is the better QB. He isn't in most ways (though he is in some ways - poise and having a better nose for escaping trouble specifically). What the Vikings *could* have done was keep Case, draft a QB, and let that QB learn for a year or two. Case probably wasn't "the answer" - even though he has come closer than Cousins to being "the answer", if the problem is getting to the Superbowl.

The problem isn't that Kirk's contract is too high for what the "market" is going for. The problem is Kirk's contract is too high for the Vikings.

So you're telling me they got one year of Keenum for $25 million while we got 3 years of Cousins for $84 million. Sign me up for 3 years of Cousins. Not too high. He is doing well.

[VikingsVictorious]

Average salary is meaningless, it’s all about guaranteed money. This article breaks down why Cousins contract is so detrimental.

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/kirk ... -contract/

Not so detrimental. Not even detrimental.

[VikingsVictorious]

Re: Cousins is overpaid for what he brings.

Lets take the bias (negative or positive) away from that part of the conversation and try to look more objectively at it. From the point of view of people that aren't Vikings fans.

Google the phrase "Most overpaid QBs" and see if you can find me a list that doesn't include Cousins. After he was a Viking, of course.

**Edit - I managed to find one article out of about 10 so far that doesn't list him as one of (or the) most overpaid QB.

Here is where I disagree. This is simply the QB market. Cousins is currently the 5th highest paid per year on average (according to spotrac). But people say he is "overpaid". Name me a QB that makes LESS than he does per year that is much better or drastically better (not counting guys on rookie contracts still like Mahomes, Jackson, Watson, etc.)??

After Cousins, the list is as follows:

Wentz
Prescott
Ryan
Tannehill
Garoppolo
Stafford
Carr
Brees
Brady
Rivers
Smith
Bridgewater

.....Brees and Brady? Who are both over 40 and arent getting anything more than year to year contracts (or 2 year deals). Outside of that, I couldnt confidently say that any of those QBs are better than Cousins.

Wentz has proved nothing
Prescott is the definition of a QB that cant win big games and he's surrounded with weapons AND an elite OL.
Ryan was a one year wonder that can no longer win
Tannehill just isnt a good passer in any way, shape or form
Garoppolo rode the back of his defense
Stafford has been a consistent loser his entire career
Carr is Carr
Rivers is a turnover machine
Smith might never play again
Teddy is the most conservative/game managing QB in the NFL.

So my question is, who should be making MORE than Cousins (outside of the guys on rookie deals)?? Cousins is making the 5th most of any QB that's been given something outside of a rookie deal. That might sound high, but it's exactly where the market is heading. Mahomes will get a contract that makes Cousins look like a bag of peanuts and surpass him, so that will make him 6th highest paid. Jackson will land a mega deal, Cousins is now 7th highest paid, Prescotts new deal will shatter most, Cousins is now 8th highest paid. Watson will surpass Cousins, making him the 9th highest paid.

Point is, dont you believe Cousins is roughly the 7th-12th best QB in the NFL? I would 100% say yes. So is his contract really THAT out of line given what QBs are making right now? No less given he's in his prime?

The "Cousins is overpaid" argument has really washed out by this point. He's going to continue to drop down the list as rookie contract QBs start landing deals.

So many fans see Cousins is the "5th highest paid QB" and automatically think that means he is the 5th best QB in the league. And that is not at all what that means. He's not overpaid. He's right where he should be if you ask me.

I would very much disagree with Brees or Brady being better than Cousins.

[Cliff]

Re: Cousins is overpaid for what he brings.

Lets take the bias (negative or positive) away from that part of the conversation and try to look more objectively at it. From the point of view of people that aren't Vikings fans.

Google the phrase "Most overpaid QBs" and see if you can find me a list that doesn't include Cousins. After he was a Viking, of course.

**Edit - I managed to find one article out of about 10 so far that doesn't list him as one of (or the) most overpaid QB.

Here is where I disagree. This is simply the QB market. Cousins is currently the 5th highest paid per year on average (according to spotrac). But people say he is "overpaid". Name me a QB that makes LESS than he does per year that is much better or drastically better (not counting guys on rookie contracts still like Mahomes, Jackson, Watson, etc.)??

After Cousins, the list is as follows:

Wentz
Prescott
Ryan
Tannehill
Garoppolo
Stafford
Carr
Brees
Brady
Rivers
Smith
Bridgewater

.....Brees and Brady? Who are both over 40 and arent getting anything more than year to year contracts (or 2 year deals). Outside of that, I couldnt confidently say that any of those QBs are better than Cousins.

Wentz has proved nothing
Prescott is the definition of a QB that cant win big games and he's surrounded with weapons AND an elite OL.
Ryan was a one year wonder that can no longer win
Tannehill just isnt a good passer in any way, shape or form
Garoppolo rode the back of his defense
Stafford has been a consistent loser his entire career
Carr is Carr
Rivers is a turnover machine
Smith might never play again
Teddy is the most conservative/game managing QB in the NFL.

So my question is, who should be making MORE than Cousins (outside of the guys on rookie deals)?? Cousins is making the 5th most of any QB that's been given something outside of a rookie deal. That might sound high, but it's exactly where the market is heading. Mahomes will get a contract that makes Cousins look like a bag of peanuts and surpass him, so that will make him 6th highest paid. Jackson will land a mega deal, Cousins is now 7th highest paid, Prescotts new deal will shatter most, Cousins is now 8th highest paid. Watson will surpass Cousins, making him the 9th highest paid.

Point is, dont you believe Cousins is roughly the 7th-12th best QB in the NFL? I would 100% say yes. So is his contract really THAT out of line given what QBs are making right now? No less given he's in his prime?

The "Cousins is overpaid" argument has really washed out by this point. He's going to continue to drop down the list as rookie contract QBs start landing deals.

So many fans see Cousins is the "5th highest paid QB" and automatically think that means he is the 5th best QB in the league. And that is not at all what that means. He's not overpaid. He's right where he should be if you ask me.

I said something similar to someone else but there is "overpaid" for what the QB market is and then there is "overpaid" for the team he is on. As a Vikings, considering the team and what a QB needs to do on it, he's overpaid. Similar results could have been had with a lesser QB so paying one that much is worthless and it means others on the team can't be paid as much either and so you lose out on talent.

Lets say I have a Master's degree in computer science and my market value is $100,000 a year. That doesn't mean McDonald's should hire me as a manager for that much. It doesn't make sense. They could get other people that would likely do a similar job as me for less money.