Wish on a Falling Tua?

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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

Post by VikingLord »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:25 pm
VikingLord wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:19 pm

I look at it this way - the Vikings have effectively 2 more years with Cousins locked up on a franchise QB-level contract. In other words, they expect Cousins to have great years for the next 2 years. If they get Tua at #22, they get him on a rookie level deal that will probably run for 5 years. Especially if Tua flashes and looks durable, why ship him for a 1st next year even if Cousins lights it up? If Tua shows promise and looks like he could become a franchise QB, I'd say keep him behind Cousins and ride that situation as long as it makes sense, knowing that you've got a solid option behind Cousins in the event Cousins is injured or becomes too expensive once his current deal runs out.

If you've got a true franchise QB, you don't trade him. For anything.
So you wouldn't trade Cousins.
I wouldn't sign a franchise QB to what amounts to a 2 year contract.

And with that said, I would trade Cousins if the offer were good enough. He's a good QB. He's competent. You can win with him if you build a solid team around him. But he's not a franchise QB. There are better QBs out there.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:56 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:25 pm
So you wouldn't trade Cousins.
I wouldn't sign a franchise QB to what amounts to a 2 year contract.

And with that said, I would trade Cousins if the offer were good enough. He's a good QB. He's competent. You can win with him if you build a solid team around him. But he's not a franchise QB. There are better QBs out there.
The term franchise QB has no true meaning. I've asked people to define it and nobody really can.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

Post by VikingLord »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:03 pm
VikingLord wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:56 pm

I wouldn't sign a franchise QB to what amounts to a 2 year contract.

And with that said, I would trade Cousins if the offer were good enough. He's a good QB. He's competent. You can win with him if you build a solid team around him. But he's not a franchise QB. There are better QBs out there.
The term franchise QB has no true meaning. I've asked people to define it and nobody really can.
How about this:

A franchise QB is a QB who once acquired by a team would not be traded nor released by said team. A franchise QB is considered an irreplaceable player for his team and plays at a consistently high level. He is a QB with few obvious weaknesses, if any obvious weaknesses, and who has several notable strengths for which most defenses cannot fully account.

It isn't about the money the QB makes per se - it's more about the willingness of the team for which the QB plays to commit to the QB. A team that has a franchise QB is obvious - they are completely content with the play of the QB and the future prospects of the QB and often structure their offseason in ways that attempt to maximize the QB's strengths heading into the next season.

Another indicator of a franchise QB is the way the team plays offense. Teams with a franchise QB feature that QB's strengths. Such teams still want effective running games and often need them, but they rarely *feature* them, and almost never run to the extent the QB's contribution is minimized (ala what the 49ers did in the playoffs with Jimmy G. last year). The franchise QB is *the* primary weapon of the offense. He is the first order concern even if the offense has a dynamic or powerful running game (be that via a primary RB or a stable of RBs). He is the single player on the offense that everyone knows that offense will rely on to win a close game at the end. He demands the ball in such situations and delivers more often than not. He is generally known as a clutch player with the game on the line. Franchise QBs often make a long list of WRs look good and not the other way around.

So there might not be a simple definition, but I can safely say that for me, Kirk Cousins is not, never has been, and probably never will be a franchise QB. He's a complementary player. He is skilled. He can make big plays and even win games on the strength of his play. He's just not nearly consistent enough doing it, doesn't do it nearly enough under pressure, and even after getting paid top dollar by the Vikings, has not had the offense constructed around his skills.

Cousins is not the only highly paid QB who isn't a franchise QB. There are other examples of similar QBs, and similar QBs play for teams that are competitive for Superbowls. The Vikings can win with Cousins. He's just not going to be the primary reason they will be one of those teams if they become one. More than likely if they do end up competing for a Superbowl while Cousins is the starting QB they'll do so similar to how the 49ers did it with Jimmy G. - on the strength of a consistent running game and dominant defense that puts Cousins into situations that are very favorable to him.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:00 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:03 pm
The term franchise QB has no true meaning. I've asked people to define it and nobody really can.
How about this:

A franchise QB is a QB who once acquired by a team would not be traded nor released by said team. A franchise QB is considered an irreplaceable player for his team and plays at a consistently high level. He is a QB with few obvious weaknesses, if any obvious weaknesses, and who has several notable strengths for which most defenses cannot fully account.

It isn't about the money the QB makes per se - it's more about the willingness of the team for which the QB plays to commit to the QB. A team that has a franchise QB is obvious - they are completely content with the play of the QB and the future prospects of the QB and often structure their offseason in ways that attempt to maximize the QB's strengths heading into the next season.

Another indicator of a franchise QB is the way the team plays offense. Teams with a franchise QB feature that QB's strengths. Such teams still want effective running games and often need them, but they rarely *feature* them, and almost never run to the extent the QB's contribution is minimized (ala what the 49ers did in the playoffs with Jimmy G. last year). The franchise QB is *the* primary weapon of the offense. He is the first order concern even if the offense has a dynamic or powerful running game (be that via a primary RB or a stable of RBs). He is the single player on the offense that everyone knows that offense will rely on to win a close game at the end. He demands the ball in such situations and delivers more often than not. He is generally known as a clutch player with the game on the line. Franchise QBs often make a long list of WRs look good and not the other way around.

So there might not be a simple definition, but I can safely say that for me, Kirk Cousins is not, never has been, and probably never will be a franchise QB. He's a complementary player. He is skilled. He can make big plays and even win games on the strength of his play. He's just not nearly consistent enough doing it, doesn't do it nearly enough under pressure, and even after getting paid top dollar by the Vikings, has not had the offense constructed around his skills.

Cousins is not the only highly paid QB who isn't a franchise QB. There are other examples of similar QBs, and similar QBs play for teams that are competitive for Superbowls. The Vikings can win with Cousins. He's just not going to be the primary reason they will be one of those teams if they become one. More than likely if they do end up competing for a Superbowl while Cousins is the starting QB they'll do so similar to how the 49ers did it with Jimmy G. - on the strength of a consistent running game and dominant defense that puts Cousins into situations that are very favorable to him.
By this definition Cousins sure seems like a franchise QB to me.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

Post by fiestavike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:05 am
VikingLord wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:00 am

How about this:

A franchise QB is a QB who once acquired by a team would not be traded nor released by said team. A franchise QB is considered an irreplaceable player for his team and plays at a consistently high level. He is a QB with few obvious weaknesses, if any obvious weaknesses, and who has several notable strengths for which most defenses cannot fully account.

It isn't about the money the QB makes per se - it's more about the willingness of the team for which the QB plays to commit to the QB. A team that has a franchise QB is obvious - they are completely content with the play of the QB and the future prospects of the QB and often structure their offseason in ways that attempt to maximize the QB's strengths heading into the next season.

Another indicator of a franchise QB is the way the team plays offense. Teams with a franchise QB feature that QB's strengths. Such teams still want effective running games and often need them, but they rarely *feature* them, and almost never run to the extent the QB's contribution is minimized (ala what the 49ers did in the playoffs with Jimmy G. last year). The franchise QB is *the* primary weapon of the offense. He is the first order concern even if the offense has a dynamic or powerful running game (be that via a primary RB or a stable of RBs). He is the single player on the offense that everyone knows that offense will rely on to win a close game at the end. He demands the ball in such situations and delivers more often than not. He is generally known as a clutch player with the game on the line. Franchise QBs often make a long list of WRs look good and not the other way around.

So there might not be a simple definition, but I can safely say that for me, Kirk Cousins is not, never has been, and probably never will be a franchise QB. He's a complementary player. He is skilled. He can make big plays and even win games on the strength of his play. He's just not nearly consistent enough doing it, doesn't do it nearly enough under pressure, and even after getting paid top dollar by the Vikings, has not had the offense constructed around his skills.

Cousins is not the only highly paid QB who isn't a franchise QB. There are other examples of similar QBs, and similar QBs play for teams that are competitive for Superbowls. The Vikings can win with Cousins. He's just not going to be the primary reason they will be one of those teams if they become one. More than likely if they do end up competing for a Superbowl while Cousins is the starting QB they'll do so similar to how the 49ers did it with Jimmy G. - on the strength of a consistent running game and dominant defense that puts Cousins into situations that are very favorable to him.
By this definition Cousins sure seems like a franchise QB to me.
He's almost there, but I think he is missing some of the necessary ingredients. The Vikings might agree with you. It seems they probably do. Maybe we'll find out for sure if Tua or Hebert somehow get past 13.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:05 am By this definition Cousins sure seems like a franchise QB to me.
You think Cousins demands the ball late in games and usually delivers?

He fails the definition on that point alone. I remember game after game last year against playoff-bound opponents where Cousins failed to bring the Vikings back late when he had the chance. I can't remember one game where the Vikings were down and I was confident they were still in it because they had Cousins.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

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fiestavike wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:35 am He's almost there, but I think he is missing some of the necessary ingredients. The Vikings might agree with you. It seems they probably do. Maybe we'll find out for sure if Tua or Hebert somehow get past 13.
I think if the Vikings agreed with him they would have signed Cousins to much more than a 2 year extension with a voidable 3rd year. Come to think of it, were it obvious Cousins is a franchise QB the Redskins would never have let him go either.

He's not a franchise QB. He's a competent and skilled QB who is a nice guy and probably very easy to work with, but he's not going to be the guy on the prow of the ship leading his teams to championships. He might be on board the ship when it happens, but that's about it.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

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VikingLord wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:03 am
fiestavike wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:35 am He's almost there, but I think he is missing some of the necessary ingredients. The Vikings might agree with you. It seems they probably do. Maybe we'll find out for sure if Tua or Hebert somehow get past 13.
I think if the Vikings agreed with him they would have signed Cousins to much more than a 2 year extension with a voidable 3rd year. Come to think of it, were it obvious Cousins is a franchise QB the Redskins would never have let him go either.

He's not a franchise QB. He's a competent and skilled QB who is a nice guy and probably very easy to work with, but he's not going to be the guy on the prow of the ship leading his teams to championships. He might be on board the ship when it happens, but that's about it.
Remember that Cousins has been the one not wanting to sign long term. He believes in himself and wants to continue getting pay raises. To meet every single item on your Franchise QB list I don't believe there is a single QB who does. Cousins meets the vast majority of them. He's top 5 in the league and that is good enough for me.

Also every year there are 5 Franchise QBs in the draft. Just ask the team that drafts him.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:33 am Remember that Cousins has been the one not wanting to sign long term. He believes in himself and wants to continue getting pay raises. To meet every single item on your Franchise QB list I don't believe there is a single QB who does. Cousins meets the vast majority of them. He's top 5 in the league and that is good enough for me.

Also every year there are 5 Franchise QBs in the draft. Just ask the team that drafts him.
Top 5 in the league based on what?

Here are some league-wide QB stats from last year - https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/qbpaa/dir/desc

Cousins relative rankings put him in the top half of starting QBs for most of those stats. Not bad, but not top 5. Not franchise.

By my definition, it's impossible to draft a franchise QB, because a team can't know it has one until the QB plays for them. Teams might hope they find a franchise QB in each draft, but that is speculation until proven on the field (which can include offseasons and practices).

When it comes to Tua T., the Vikings can believe whatever they want about him should he fall to them and they draft him, but they won't know what they have until they see him in pads in their offense over time. He doesn't need to start, but he does need to show what he can do in practices and in the preseason.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

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VikingLord wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:42 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:33 am Remember that Cousins has been the one not wanting to sign long term. He believes in himself and wants to continue getting pay raises. To meet every single item on your Franchise QB list I don't believe there is a single QB who does. Cousins meets the vast majority of them. He's top 5 in the league and that is good enough for me.

Also every year there are 5 Franchise QBs in the draft. Just ask the team that drafts him.
Top 5 in the league based on what?

Here are some league-wide QB stats from last year - https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/qbpaa/dir/desc

Cousins relative rankings put him in the top half of starting QBs for most of those stats. Not bad, but not top 5. Not franchise.

By my definition, it's impossible to draft a franchise QB, because a team can't know it has one until the QB plays for them. Teams might hope they find a franchise QB in each draft, but that is speculation until proven on the field (which can include offseasons and practices).

When it comes to Tua T., the Vikings can believe whatever they want about him should he fall to them and they draft him, but they won't know what they have until they see him in pads in their offense over time. He doesn't need to start, but he does need to show what he can do in practices and in the preseason.
Based on efficiency. I see Cousins without any question whatsoever as a top 10 QB. Where he is within that is debatable. I would say Mahomes, Wilson and Watson are better for sure. Nobody else I see as definitely better. Brady and Brees are ancient. Rodgers isn't what he used to be. Lamar Jackson could be a one year wonder. Dak and Wentz maybe. Definitely nobody else IMO. Those are the top 10. YMMV. :govikes:
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

Post by YikesVikes »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:45 pm
VikingLord wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:42 pm

Top 5 in the league based on what?

Here are some league-wide QB stats from last year - https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/qbpaa/dir/desc

Cousins relative rankings put him in the top half of starting QBs for most of those stats. Not bad, but not top 5. Not franchise.

By my definition, it's impossible to draft a franchise QB, because a team can't know it has one until the QB plays for them. Teams might hope they find a franchise QB in each draft, but that is speculation until proven on the field (which can include offseasons and practices).

When it comes to Tua T., the Vikings can believe whatever they want about him should he fall to them and they draft him, but they won't know what they have until they see him in pads in their offense over time. He doesn't need to start, but he does need to show what he can do in practices and in the preseason.
Based on efficiency. I see Cousins without any question whatsoever as a top 10 QB. Where he is within that is debatable. I would say Mahomes, Wilson and Watson are better for sure. Nobody else I see as definitely better. Brady and Brees are ancient. Rodgers isn't what he used to be. Lamar Jackson could be a one year wonder. Dak and Wentz maybe. Definitely nobody else IMO. Those are the top 10. YMMV. :govikes:
Brady and Brees are better QBs than Cousins right now.
Jackson is also a better QB right now. The thing about these guys is they don't shrink in the face of adversity. Cousins does. As much as I love the guy. I would trade him for the other 3 in a heartbeat given his constant 2 contract year status.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

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YikesVikes wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:04 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:45 pm
Based on efficiency. I see Cousins without any question whatsoever as a top 10 QB. Where he is within that is debatable. I would say Mahomes, Wilson and Watson are better for sure. Nobody else I see as definitely better. Brady and Brees are ancient. Rodgers isn't what he used to be. Lamar Jackson could be a one year wonder. Dak and Wentz maybe. Definitely nobody else IMO. Those are the top 10. YMMV. :govikes:
Brady and Brees are better QBs than Cousins right now.
Jackson is also a better QB right now. The thing about these guys is they don't shrink in the face of adversity. Cousins does. As much as I love the guy. I would trade him for the other 3 in a heartbeat given his constant 2 contract year status.
I consider you 100% wrong about Cousins shrinking in the face of adversity. I think it's very debatable regarding who is better right now. You think you know who is. It's OK for you to have an opinion, but just realize it's only an opinion.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:45 pm Based on efficiency. I see Cousins without any question whatsoever as a top 10 QB.
You're moving the goalposts a bit there. First he's a top 5 QB, and now he's top 10 based on "efficiency"?

Look, the bottom line for me that defines whether a team has a franchise QB is would the fans of that team want a different QB? Would the team trade that QB for anyone else if they could?

If the answer to that question is yes, then that team's current QB is not a franchise QB.

So my question to you is, would you trade Cousins for any other QB? If you can honestly answer no, then Cousins is a franchise QB for you. I could not honestly answer no. I'd take either of the ancient guys you mentioned over Cousins, much less the other guys you mentioned, and maybe a few others as well.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:40 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:45 pm Based on efficiency. I see Cousins without any question whatsoever as a top 10 QB.
You're moving the goalposts a bit there. First he's a top 5 QB, and now he's top 10 based on "efficiency"?

Look, the bottom line for me that defines whether a team has a franchise QB is would the fans of that team want a different QB? Would the team trade that QB for anyone else if they could?

If the answer to that question is yes, then that team's current QB is not a franchise QB.

So my question to you is, would you trade Cousins for any other QB? If you can honestly answer no, then Cousins is a franchise QB for you. I could not honestly answer no. I'd take either of the ancient guys you mentioned over Cousins, much less the other guys you mentioned, and maybe a few others as well.
No goalpost moving. I see Cousins as a top 5 QB in the NFL. However, I can see that as being debatable so I added that I see him as a top 10 QB without question and it's just a matter of where he fits in the top 10. I would trade Cousins for Mahomes so I guess there is only one franchise QB in the NFL. Now maybe I wouldn't if Mahomes would be getting a $50 Million AAV contract that we couldn't afford. I personally see your definition getting to the point of BS. To me there is no debate that Mahomes is the single best QB. Now somebody might IMO be foolish enough to think it's Lamar Jackson. So with your declaration that under no circumstances would a team or it's fans approve of trading their QB guess what? There are zero franchise QBs, because if we had Mahomes and he's demanding $50 million a year I would trade him for Russell Wilson on a vet minimum contract.
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Re: Wish on a Falling Tua?

Post by YikesVikes »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:58 pm
YikesVikes wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:04 pm

Brady and Brees are better QBs than Cousins right now.
Jackson is also a better QB right now. The thing about these guys is they don't shrink in the face of adversity. Cousins does. As much as I love the guy. I would trade him for the other 3 in a heartbeat given his constant 2 contract year status.
I consider you 100% wrong about Cousins shrinking in the face of adversity. I think it's very debatable regarding who is better right now. You think you know who is. It's OK for you to have an opinion, but just realize it's only an opinion.
You are ignoring the facts and that's cool. I live in the DC area and it has ALWAYS been the knock on the guy. He doesn't play his best When the chips are on the table. He is an excellent QB but he is not better than Brees and Brady right now.
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