J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:49 am
I am as optimistic as any Vikings fan alive, and that after 50+ years of following the team. But I can’t disagree with anything said here.
In all my time as a fan, there have been just a few times I’ve been so disappointed in this team that it made me seriously wonder why I don’t just stop watching football and save myself the heartache. Those would be the ‘76 loss to the Raiders, the ‘98 loss to Atlanta, the ‘15 loss to Seattle, the ‘17 loss to Philly ... and last night. Why those games? Because those were good teams that underachieved in the biggest moments.
That’s three of the worst gut punches delivered courtesy of a Mike Zimmer coached team.
Here’s what I think it is with Cousins. This team under Zimmer is so risk-averse that Cousins is simply shell shocked. How many times did Cousins double clutch on throws last night? He was afraid to turn it over. You could see it in his eyes. Not making excuses for Cousins. He was beyond horrible. But I’m beginning to think it doesn’t matter who is playing QB. If Zimmer is coaching, they’re going to be less than their best. The only exception was Keenum ... he didn’t seem to care what Zimmer thought, which is probably why Zimmer couldn’t stand him.
Think this team would ever play this poorly on offense under somebody like Kyle Shanahan or Andy Reid? Somebody who realizes that your offense has to be able to do more than not turn it over?
Never thought I’d say this, but the house cleaning needs to start with the head coach.
Zimmer is a defensive minded coach true, and he got the defense playing great last night in the biggest game of the season. Whatever you think of his coaching style, he has also gotten the best years out of EVERY QB he has coached. That includes Cousins.
I think the game plan last night was originally not to be risk adverse and to take it to the Pack. The QB was clearly off from the start though, and I believe they adjusted to take some pressure off of him. It didn't matter.
One of the reasons great QBs are great and win more than they lose, is their leadership on the field. Watching last night, do you think Cousins showed great leadership? If you were playing with a guy who was completely frazzled, a guy who is supposed to pick up the team, but instead contributes to them failing, versus a guy who was stepping up to overcome missing his best two RBs, which would pick you up more?
Zimmer wasn't the problem last night. The QB, the Oline, the injuries, they were the problem.
Lot’s of critical comments of Zimmer this morning. He sure got the defense hyped yesterday, though. Did you see Barr’s intensity after the turnover? Yes, they gave up a lot of yard on the ground, but that was after being on the field for much more than half the game.
This was another case of an incomplete game. The offense couldn’t hack it. I heard radio say all week that we thought we could do what we needed to on offense with Boone. I think our coaching staff thought so too. Turns out that was not true. Our offense has been really good most of the year, but requires the threat of a run game to get going. The combination of a meager running game and Thielen being on limited snaps resulted in the bleep show we watched last night.
I would like to see how our guys play in the playoffs this year before asking for a house cleaning.
Props to the D I guess. They are quite an enigma. They got a couple turnovers, held the Pack to field goals early. All good I guess, but despite that got walked through most of the game. The old bend, don't break, until of course they break.
Some offense would have helped. No run blocking, no pass blocking makes Kirk a dull boy. Game plan bad, no adjustments. Nothing working. Pack is 12-3 for a reason. Not luck.
The Vikes are a very good team, but their weaknesses, (O line and secondary) make them a marginal SB contender. The O line cannot hold up against somebody good, they aren't capable. The D isn't dominant enough to make up for that and sometimes they actually suck. The QB is very much like the team, very good, not special. This team needs a few pieces and some injury luck and they can win a SB.
S197 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:14 am
This game basically confirmed all my fears. This is a mentally weak, poorly coached team that simply puts out constant low effort performances in December. This game was EXACTLY like the Bears last year. Both games the rush D was absolutely gashed, the O-line was horrid, Cousins was ineffective, and the game plan laughable. Both games at home with playoff implications.
How many OCs do we need to go through before we realize there’s a bigger problem? Reiff and Bradbury are 1st rounders, O’Neill a 2nd and Elflein a 3rd. And they looked horrendous. Rick has failed to put together a halfway decent line and he’s had over a decade. Not to mention paying a truckload for Cousins who while I’m sure has amazing NextGen stats, can’t elevate this team when it’s needed most. Rick needs to go.
Zimmer is also over his head. The constantly underprepared teams. Questionable calls (going for it on 4th down, calling a timeout to punt, punting when down 2 scores). And a regressing defense despite immense amounts of draft capital. He needs to go too.
The problem is both of them are good but not good enough. If you’re a fan of having a proverbial wildcard team then I guess you’re content. I’m not. We deserve better and I really feel neither of these guys can deliver it.
Fans need to stop selling themselves short. We deserve a championship. Or at least a team that can contend. Average simply isn’t acceptable anymore. I’d rather clean house and risk losing our above average status for a chance at greatness. What we have now, it’s capped out, they’ve proven over and over they simply do not have the wherewithal to get to the next level.
Well said.
Zimmer and Spielman have shown Vikes fans (and ownership) again and again what they have to offer and it's this better-than-average-but-going-nowhere brand of football. As you said, Vikes fans deserve better. I realize it's still theoretically possible the Vikings will go on a hot streak and storm through the playoffs to win their first Super Bowl but anybody who's watched this team under Zimmer knows how utterly flimsy that possibility is in reality.
S197 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:14 am
This game basically confirmed all my fears. This is a mentally weak, poorly coached team that simply puts out constant low effort performances in December. This game was EXACTLY like the Bears last year. Both games the rush D was absolutely gashed, the O-line was horrid, Cousins was ineffective, and the game plan laughable. Both games at home with playoff implications.
How many OCs do we need to go through before we realize there’s a bigger problem? Reiff and Bradbury are 1st rounders, O’Neill a 2nd and Elflein a 3rd. And they looked horrendous. Rick has failed to put together a halfway decent line and he’s had over a decade. Not to mention paying a truckload for Cousins who while I’m sure has amazing NextGen stats, can’t elevate this team when it’s needed most. Rick needs to go.
Zimmer is also over his head. The constantly underprepared teams. Questionable calls (going for it on 4th down, calling a timeout to punt, punting when down 2 scores). And a regressing defense despite immense amounts of draft capital. He needs to go too.
The problem is both of them are good but not good enough. If you’re a fan of having a proverbial wildcard team then I guess you’re content. I’m not. We deserve better and I really feel neither of these guys can deliver it.
Fans need to stop selling themselves short. We deserve a championship. Or at least a team that can contend. Average simply isn’t acceptable anymore. I’d rather clean house and risk losing our above average status for a chance at greatness. What we have now, it’s capped out, they’ve proven over and over they simply do not have the wherewithal to get to the next level.
Well said.
Zimmer and Spielman have shown Vikes fans (and ownership) again and again what they have to offer and it's this better-than-average-but-going-nowhere brand of football. As you said, Vikes fans deserve better. I realize it's still theoretically possible the Vikings will go on a hot streak and storm through the playoffs to win their first Super Bowl but anybody who's watched this team under Zimmer knows how utterly flimsy that possibility is in reality.
He has never had a SB caliber team, and never will with the current GM. Since the HC and GM go together typically, you are technically right.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:49 am
I am as optimistic as any Vikings fan alive, and that after 50+ years of following the team. But I can’t disagree with anything said here.
In all my time as a fan, there have been just a few times I’ve been so disappointed in this team that it made me seriously wonder why I don’t just stop watching football and save myself the heartache. Those would be the ‘76 loss to the Raiders, the ‘98 loss to Atlanta, the ‘15 loss to Seattle, the ‘17 loss to Philly ... and last night. Why those games? Because those were good teams that underachieved in the biggest moments.
That’s three of the worst gut punches delivered courtesy of a Mike Zimmer coached team.
Here’s what I think it is with Cousins. This team under Zimmer is so risk-averse that Cousins is simply shell shocked. How many times did Cousins double clutch on throws last night? He was afraid to turn it over. You could see it in his eyes. Not making excuses for Cousins. He was beyond horrible. But I’m beginning to think it doesn’t matter who is playing QB. If Zimmer is coaching, they’re going to be less than their best. The only exception was Keenum ... he didn’t seem to care what Zimmer thought, which is probably why Zimmer couldn’t stand him.
Think this team would ever play this poorly on offense under somebody like Kyle Shanahan or Andy Reid? Somebody who realizes that your offense has to be able to do more than not turn it over?
Never thought I’d say this, but the house cleaning needs to start with the head coach.
What makes you think Zimmer couldn't stand Keenum? Elway couldn't stand him either and gave him his walking papers after giving him a ton of cash. Zim let him walk also. Keenum is a great backup. Yes he won a playoff miracle game. Then crapped the bed in the Champ game. That's why we got rid of him. Cousins looked shell shocked because the Packers and this Smith guy were bringing pressure. Since I've watched this game the key for a great pass defense is tremendous pressure. No QB can take it. The Bear 46 defense had all QBs crapping in their pants. I've seen the great Jaws face Lawerence Taylor and if he didn't know where he was he called time out. He didn't want the blindside decking that was coming. I don't blame him. Same thing will happen if the Bears want to play and bring pressure. Cousins will be done. Cousins had some wonderful games and wasn't afraid of a turn over. Last night the pressure got the best of him. Nothing to do with Zim. When we put heat on Rodgers he didn't look to good either. Looked confused. That's what pass D is all about IMO. Bring the heat big time.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:49 am
I am as optimistic as any Vikings fan alive, and that after 50+ years of following the team. But I can’t disagree with anything said here.
In all my time as a fan, there have been just a few times I’ve been so disappointed in this team that it made me seriously wonder why I don’t just stop watching football and save myself the heartache. Those would be the ‘76 loss to the Raiders, the ‘98 loss to Atlanta, the ‘15 loss to Seattle, the ‘17 loss to Philly ... and last night. Why those games? Because those were good teams that underachieved in the biggest moments.
That’s three of the worst gut punches delivered courtesy of a Mike Zimmer coached team.
Here’s what I think it is with Cousins. This team under Zimmer is so risk-averse that Cousins is simply shell shocked. How many times did Cousins double clutch on throws last night? He was afraid to turn it over. You could see it in his eyes. Not making excuses for Cousins. He was beyond horrible. But I’m beginning to think it doesn’t matter who is playing QB. If Zimmer is coaching, they’re going to be less than their best. The only exception was Keenum ... he didn’t seem to care what Zimmer thought, which is probably why Zimmer couldn’t stand him.
Think this team would ever play this poorly on offense under somebody like Kyle Shanahan or Andy Reid? Somebody who realizes that your offense has to be able to do more than not turn it over?
Never thought I’d say this, but the house cleaning needs to start with the head coach.
What makes you think Zimmer couldn't stand Keenum? Elway couldn't stand him either and gave him his walking papers after giving him a ton of cash. Zim let him walk also. Keenum is a great backup. Yes he won a playoff miracle game. Then crapped the bed in the Champ game. That's why we got rid of him. Cousins looked shell shocked because the Packers and this Smith guy were bringing pressure. Since I've watched this game the key for a great pass defense is tremendous pressure. No QB can take it. The Bear 46 defense had all QBs crapping in their pants. I've seen the great Jaws face Lawerence Taylor and if he didn't know where he was he called time out. He didn't want the blindside decking that was coming. I don't blame him. Same thing will happen if the Bears want to play and bring pressure. Cousins will be done. Cousins had some wonderful games and wasn't afraid of a turn over. Last night the pressure got the best of him. Nothing to do with Zim. When we put heat on Rodgers he didn't look to good either. Looked confused. That's what pass D is all about IMO. Bring the heat big time.
Agree. You break down the O line and QB with constant pressure and you win most games. You bring 4 who can't get there most of the time and you lose.
Not really sure who is to blame (I'm sure there's enough to go around) but it seems pretty clear that we had no alternate playbook for not having Cook. Stefanski thought he could plug and play Boone into Cook's spot and get 80% of the production and when that didn't work, we literally had nothing. So yes, the line the terrible, Kirk was really bad, the playcalling was horrendous, but I think the coaching staff just didn't have a plan for no Cook.
Or maybe they just didn't care too much about this game and think the 6 seed is all we need especially if it means a healthy Cook come playoff time. The options were probably - play Cook tonight, win, still end up 5 seed (we had less than 5% chance of getting anything other than 5 or 6 seed), potentially lose Cook for the playoffs OR sit Cook, lose this game, have healthy Cook for playoffs at the 6 seed.
I don't think our coaches are smart enough to think that many moves into the future, but potentially that's what happened. If not, it was just a terribly coached and terribly prepared game. It's like we can only game plan one side of the ball before each game - never both offense and defense - can only be one apparently.
I can't recall an NFL game where the offensive linemen of one team were getting ragdolled around by the defensive linemen of another team this late in the season. Heck, I don't recall seeing that when one team was demonstrably bad and the other good, much less when both are supposedly good.
I'll tip my hat to the defense, which I thought played pretty well. They created a lot of turnovers and seemed ready to play, and had they not had to spend the entire game on the field due to the offense being completely inept and dominated, I think they would have maintained that level of play for the entire game.
As for the offense, that performance seems to be typical of late-season Mike Zimmer teams and was completely unacceptable. Every player on that unit should be ashamed of himself IMHO. They weren't prepared at all. Maybe Brian O'Neill did OK on the offensive line, but every other guy was getting tossed around like he wasn't even there. That was like practice against blocking dummies for the Packers.
With that kind of pressure it's hard to tell if Cousins was any good, but he didn't seem very interested in being out there either.
It's also hard to tell if the playcalls were any good. When the offensive line is so poor and being so completely dominated, how can anything develop?
Honestly, I'm SO sick and tired of watching such inconsistent play. There simply HAVE to be men who want to play offensive line in the league even if they're not the most talented. Guys who will show up every game and give it everything they have and show some pride. I wouldn't be shocked at all to see the same thing repeat itself next week against a Bears team that has nothing to play for, either. The Bears did something similar to what the Packers did last night earlier in the year and they are more than capable of doing it again.
What a disgusting display. O'Neill is the only offensive linemen on the team worth anything. Maybe the rest should just get busy booking their postseason vacation plans.
TSonn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:24 am
Not really sure who is to blame (I'm sure there's enough to go around) but it seems pretty clear that we had no alternate playbook for not having Cook. Stefanski thought he could plug and play Boone into Cook's spot and get 80% of the production and when that didn't work, we literally had nothing. So yes, the line the terrible, Kirk was really bad, the playcalling was horrendous, but I think the coaching staff just didn't have a plan for no Cook.
Or maybe they just didn't care too much about this game and think the 6 seed is all we need especially if it means a healthy Cook come playoff time. The options were probably - play Cook tonight, win, still end up 5 seed (we had less than 5% chance of getting anything other than 5 or 6 seed), potentially lose Cook for the playoffs OR sit Cook, lose this game, have healthy Cook for playoffs at the 6 seed.
I don't think our coaches are smart enough to think that many moves into the future, but potentially that's what happened. If not, it was just a terribly coached and terribly prepared game. It's like we can only game plan one side of the ball before each game - never both offense and defense - can only be one apparently.
I didn't get the sense the team was disinterested overall, though. The defense clearly wanted to play and prove something.
And as far as Cook goes, he'd have been killed last night too. When the offensive line play is that poor it really doesn't matter who is in at RB.
CharVike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:08 am
What makes you think Zimmer couldn't stand Keenum? Elway couldn't stand him either and gave him his walking papers after giving him a ton of cash. Zim let him walk also. Keenum is a great backup. Yes he won a playoff miracle game. Then crapped the bed in the Champ game. That's why we got rid of him. Cousins looked shell shocked because the Packers and this Smith guy were bringing pressure. Since I've watched this game the key for a great pass defense is tremendous pressure. No QB can take it. The Bear 46 defense had all QBs crapping in their pants. I've seen the great Jaws face Lawerence Taylor and if he didn't know where he was he called time out. He didn't want the blindside decking that was coming. I don't blame him. Same thing will happen if the Bears want to play and bring pressure. Cousins will be done. Cousins had some wonderful games and wasn't afraid of a turn over. Last night the pressure got the best of him. Nothing to do with Zim. When we put heat on Rodgers he didn't look to good either. Looked confused. That's what pass D is all about IMO. Bring the heat big time.
Agree. You break down the O line and QB with constant pressure and you win most games. You bring 4 who can't get there most of the time and you lose.
Agreed. But a lot of that has to do with being able to run. Can't constantly bring pressure if you're also playing the run. Once they knew we couldn't run with Boone, they just teed off. Opposite for us - Jones was constantly gouging us on 1st down so we couldn't bring constant pressure.
I mean, just look last week. We handled arguably a much better DE in Joey Bosa. Didn't really bother us much at all because the LA defense had to worry about Cook every play.
I'm sure there are ways to combat not having an all pro RB to distract the pass rushers, but our coaching staff hasn't figured it out.
Last edited by TSonn on Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
TSonn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:24 am
Not really sure who is to blame (I'm sure there's enough to go around) but it seems pretty clear that we had no alternate playbook for not having Cook. Stefanski thought he could plug and play Boone into Cook's spot and get 80% of the production and when that didn't work, we literally had nothing. So yes, the line the terrible, Kirk was really bad, the playcalling was horrendous, but I think the coaching staff just didn't have a plan for no Cook.
Or maybe they just didn't care too much about this game and think the 6 seed is all we need especially if it means a healthy Cook come playoff time. The options were probably - play Cook tonight, win, still end up 5 seed (we had less than 5% chance of getting anything other than 5 or 6 seed), potentially lose Cook for the playoffs OR sit Cook, lose this game, have healthy Cook for playoffs at the 6 seed.
I don't think our coaches are smart enough to think that many moves into the future, but potentially that's what happened. If not, it was just a terribly coached and terribly prepared game. It's like we can only game plan one side of the ball before each game - never both offense and defense - can only be one apparently.
I didn't get the sense the team was disinterested overall, though. The defense clearly wanted to play and prove something.
And as far as Cook goes, he'd have been killed last night too. When the offensive line play is that poor it really doesn't matter who is in at RB.
Yeah, I'm not saying they tried to lose the game - I think they (players at least) tried to win the game but potentially the coaching staff didn't put much effort into coming up with a new playbook without Cook. Seemed content with saying - well let's give this a shot and if it works, great! If not, we'll get Cook back and get back to our game in the playoffs.
I wasn't too disheartened last night even though I hate losing to the Pack (I'm from Wisconsin and take a lot of crap). Even if we had won the game we'd most likely be the 5th seed, have to have a miracle playoffs run, and there's no way we'd be beating Lamar or Mahomes.
The loss at Seattle really killed our hopes for the season IMO.
TSonn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:29 amAgreed. But a lot of that has to do with being able to run. Can't constantly bring pressure if you're also playing the run. Once they knew we couldn't run with Boone, they just teed off. Opposite for us - Jones was constantly gouging us on 1st down so we couldn't bring constant pressure.
Yes, and that undermines the idea that the defense played "great" or even all that well. Green Bay moved the ball on them all night, primarily with Adams and Jones, so the Vikings knew who was getting the ball and they still couldn't stop them. They deserve huge kudos for the turnovers they forced in the first half but the offense couldn't capitalize, the defense couldn't sufficiently stifle GB and consequently, the Packers were able to wear them down.
It would also be a good idea to trade or cut Griffen in a cap saving move tgis off-season imo. Odenigbo looks like a rising star and he gets half the snaps. Griffen has a habit of disappearing in big games.
mael·strom
a powerful whirlpool in the sea or a river.
a situation or state of confused movement or violent turmoil.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:49 am
I am as optimistic as any Vikings fan alive, and that after 50+ years of following the team. But I can’t disagree with anything said here.
In all my time as a fan, there have been just a few times I’ve been so disappointed in this team that it made me seriously wonder why I don’t just stop watching football and save myself the heartache. Those would be the ‘76 loss to the Raiders, the ‘98 loss to Atlanta, the ‘15 loss to Seattle, the ‘17 loss to Philly ... and last night. Why those games? Because those were good teams that underachieved in the biggest moments.
That’s three of the worst gut punches delivered courtesy of a Mike Zimmer coached team.
Here’s what I think it is with Cousins. This team under Zimmer is so risk-averse that Cousins is simply shell shocked. How many times did Cousins double clutch on throws last night? He was afraid to turn it over. You could see it in his eyes. Not making excuses for Cousins. He was beyond horrible. But I’m beginning to think it doesn’t matter who is playing QB. If Zimmer is coaching, they’re going to be less than their best. The only exception was Keenum ... he didn’t seem to care what Zimmer thought, which is probably why Zimmer couldn’t stand him.
Think this team would ever play this poorly on offense under somebody like Kyle Shanahan or Andy Reid? Somebody who realizes that your offense has to be able to do more than not turn it over?
Never thought I’d say this, but the house cleaning needs to start with the head coach.
What makes you think Zimmer couldn't stand Keenum? Elway couldn't stand him either and gave him his walking papers after giving him a ton of cash. Zim let him walk also. Keenum is a great backup. Yes he won a playoff miracle game. Then crapped the bed in the Champ game. That's why we got rid of him. Cousins looked shell shocked because the Packers and this Smith guy were bringing pressure. Since I've watched this game the key for a great pass defense is tremendous pressure. No QB can take it. The Bear 46 defense had all QBs crapping in their pants. I've seen the great Jaws face Lawerence Taylor and if he didn't know where he was he called time out. He didn't want the blindside decking that was coming. I don't blame him. Same thing will happen if the Bears want to play and bring pressure. Cousins will be done. Cousins had some wonderful games and wasn't afraid of a turn over. Last night the pressure got the best of him. Nothing to do with Zim. When we put heat on Rodgers he didn't look to good either. Looked confused. That's what pass D is all about IMO. Bring the heat big time.
Easy bro. This is not a “we shoulda kept Case” rant. But you can’t tell me with a straight face that Zimmer liked Keenum. He didn’t even make Keenum the definitive starter until we were almost in the playoffs. And he said Keenum had a horseshoe up his butt, meaning he was lucky.
I just think that the overall philosophy of extreme risk aversion leans way too conservative. I place this loss on the coaching staff, and Zimmer leads that staff. That kind of offensive ineptitude, at home, against a defense that has not been as good as we made them look, falls squarely at the feet of the coaching staff. Yes, the pressure got the best of Cousins. And what did we do to offset that pressure? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. No draws. No screens. Very few rollouts. Just drop back and let him get killed. Extremely poor game plan, and zero adjustments.
