Vikings vs. Lions postgame

[Svt40]

Prevent defense. Again, Zimmer ... don't play prevent then complain when your team doesn't finish the shutout.


What are your thoughts?

I get so upset when I see that prevent crap come out on every game we have a lead in. Let the GD defense finish a game for once! We could have easily had a shutout. But nope the Zimmer way is to get a lead and sit on your hands for the rest of the game, eating the clock.

[Dames]

Prevent defense. Again, Zimmer ... don't play prevent then complain when your team doesn't finish the shutout.


What are your thoughts?

I get so upset when I see that prevent crap come out on every game we have a lead in. Let the GD defense finish a game for once! We could have easily had a shutout. But nope the Zimmer way is to get a lead and sit on your hands for the rest of the game, eating the clock.

Zimmer definitely has the old-school conservative approach. In yesterday's game, it worked. I'm not a fan of it either. In Seattle I think he tried it for a while too in the 3rd quarter, but it didn't work. It may have cost them the game too. I think if they had kept the pedal to the medal it changes everything. By doing otherwise, we let them stay with their game plan (running the ball) and get back into the game. It wasn't the only factor in that loss, but I think it played a part.

[Dames]

the short passing of late has been in response to playing teams with strong pass rushers. That and our OL/RB are probably NFL best in the screen game. This is a great example of how much better Stefanski / Kubiak has been at game planning vs. the JDF disaster. Coaching matters...

Overall, this coaching and play-calling is light years ahead of JDF. I think they still do some irritating things, like go ultra-conservative at times, but I like it SO much better than last year still.

[StumpHunter]

Prevent defense. Again, Zimmer ... don't play prevent then complain when your team doesn't finish the shutout.


What are your thoughts?

I get so upset when I see that prevent crap come out on every game we have a lead in. Let the GD defense finish a game for once! We could have easily had a shutout. But nope the Zimmer way is to get a lead and sit on your hands for the rest of the game, eating the clock.

The only way Detroit gets back in that game is with some fast scores. Prevent defense keeps the opposition from scoring quickly.

20-7 versus 20-0 means nothing in the standings. Giving up a 75 yard pass and a 30 second TD drive might have.

[VikingLord]

the short passing of late has been in response to playing teams with strong pass rushers. That and our OL/RB are probably NFL best in the screen game. This is a great example of how much better Stefanski / Kubiak has been at game planning vs. the JDF disaster. Coaching matters...

I don't think so. If that were the case, you would see a dramatic decrease in time to throw, and we haven't outside of the Denver game. With the Denver game, Cousins averaged more air yards per completion than any of the past 4 games. Which is weird because they have the best pass rush we have faced, and got to Cousins more than any team since Chicago.

Plus, Seattle is actually really bad at rushing the passer this season, yet we only had 2 passes completed over 10 yards.

It is almost like the play calling gets way more conservative when we play big games. Like they are afraid of a repeat of GB and Chicago.

I don't know what plays are being called or whether on most passing plays Cousins has a deep option. It could be that the playcalling itself is more conservative in big games, or it could be that Cousins is willing to take fewer chances in big games. Heck, it could be that in bigger games or in pressure situations, Cousins is simply not patient and not seeing the field. That could be a result of his route progressions as well. An recent example is the 4th down play late against the Seahawks. Cousins locked onto Irv Smith and attempted to force that pass as Smith came out of his break almost regardless of the fact he was covered when had he waited just a click more he might have spotted Mattison wide open at the marker.

This isn't intended to be a criticism of Cousins who I think has played well overall. It's just more an observation that without knowing what the receivers are doing on each play and how open (or not) they might be, it's much harder to say the overall offense is designed to be conservative. It could be that Cousins is just reading the defense and going with the option he feels is the safest play, and perhaps the more than he feels is on the line, the more inclined he is to play it safe. There isn't anything wrong with that necessarily if the safer option works, and all things being equal, that is smart football. I don't know how far the offense can get using that approach in the playoffs, though.

One other telling thing I noticed was on the deep TD to Treadwell in the Seahawks game was when the safety released Treadwell and jumped the shorter route. I know defensive coordinators and defensive backs study the tendencies of their opponents, and that single play told me volumes about what they see when they watch Cousins and the Vikings offense. Safeties are there to be the last line of defense against the big play, and with few exceptions you almost never see them choose to jump a shorter route over a deeper route. I don't know how good that safety is overall. He might just be incompetent and a freelancer who gets away with guessing, but on that play, he seemed very confident that Cousins would not see the deeper option and would try to complete the shorter one.

IIRC, there were a few examples of that in the earlier game against the Bears, too, but in that game Cousins didn't see the deeper route.

So yeah, it does seem like there is some evidence to suggest that defenses expect the shorter throws and are even willing to gamble that the ball won't go deep even if the route is open if Cousins is under some pressure. Cousins can clearly throw the deep ball, so this tendency might be a situational thing or something a defense feels it can cause to happen if it brings pressure or something.

Hopefully, the Vikings will open it up downfield some more, and not just when they're forced to do it by the situation, but to dictate the pace and also to keep the defense honest. The run game in particular has slowed a lot as of late, and I can't help but think that the more conservative play and shorter passes are allowing the DBs to creep up and help shut the run down. This upcoming game on Sunday might be a good time to remind the Vikings remaining opponents that if they do that, the Vikings can make them pay.

[CharVike]

I don't think so. If that were the case, you would see a dramatic decrease in time to throw, and we haven't outside of the Denver game. With the Denver game, Cousins averaged more air yards per completion than any of the past 4 games. Which is weird because they have the best pass rush we have faced, and got to Cousins more than any team since Chicago.

Plus, Seattle is actually really bad at rushing the passer this season, yet we only had 2 passes completed over 10 yards.

It is almost like the play calling gets way more conservative when we play big games. Like they are afraid of a repeat of GB and Chicago.

I don't know what plays are being called or whether on most passing plays Cousins has a deep option. It could be that the playcalling itself is more conservative in big games, or it could be that Cousins is willing to take fewer chances in big games. Heck, it could be that in bigger games or in pressure situations, Cousins is simply not patient and not seeing the field. That could be a result of his route progressions as well. An recent example is the 4th down play late against the Seahawks. Cousins locked onto Irv Smith and attempted to force that pass as Smith came out of his break almost regardless of the fact he was covered when had he waited just a click more he might have spotted Mattison wide open at the marker.

This isn't intended to be a criticism of Cousins who I think has played well overall. It's just more an observation that without knowing what the receivers are doing on each play and how open (or not) they might be, it's much harder to say the overall offense is designed to be conservative. It could be that Cousins is just reading the defense and going with the option he feels is the safest play, and perhaps the more than he feels is on the line, the more inclined he is to play it safe. There isn't anything wrong with that necessarily if the safer option works, and all things being equal, that is smart football. I don't know how far the offense can get using that approach in the playoffs, though.

One other telling thing I noticed was on the deep TD to Treadwell in the Seahawks game was when the safety released Treadwell and jumped the shorter route. I know defensive coordinators and defensive backs study the tendencies of their opponents, and that single play told me volumes about what they see when they watch Cousins and the Vikings offense. Safeties are there to be the last line of defense against the big play, and with few exceptions you almost never see them choose to jump a shorter route over a deeper route. I don't know how good that safety is overall. He might just be incompetent and a freelancer who gets away with guessing, but on that play, he seemed very confident that Cousins would not see the deeper option and would try to complete the shorter one.

IIRC, there were a few examples of that in the earlier game against the Bears, too, but in that game Cousins didn't see the deeper route.

So yeah, it does seem like there is some evidence to suggest that defenses expect the shorter throws and are even willing to gamble that the ball won't go deep even if the route is open if Cousins is under some pressure. Cousins can clearly throw the deep ball, so this tendency might be a situational thing or something a defense feels it can cause to happen if it brings pressure or something.

Hopefully, the Vikings will open it up downfield some more, and not just when they're forced to do it by the situation, but to dictate the pace and also to keep the defense honest. The run game in particular has slowed a lot as of late, and I can't help but think that the more conservative play and shorter passes are allowing the DBs to creep up and help shut the run down. This upcoming game on Sunday might be a good time to remind the Vikings remaining opponents that if they do that, the Vikings can make them pay.

The deep one to Treadwell I felt Cousins looked the safety off very well. I also felt the Safety bit on the shorter route because how often does Treadwell run deep routes. This isn't a speed demo that needs to be respected deep. I don't recall him running many vertical routes. I think the safety was expecting the shorter pass and was looking for the pick. Give Cousins credit for the look off and seeing the safety coming down. That's hard to do and a big time play. This expecting shorter throws might have to do with the players and scheme. Diggs can get deep but who else can? Certainly not Treadwell. Adam T isn't considered a burner either. It's not like we have a lighting volt out there.

[S197]

Thielen is a 4.4 guy, he's not Tyreek Hill but he's no slouch either.

[CharVike]

Thielen is a 4.4 guy, he's not Tyreek Hill but he's no slouch either.

I was wrong again.

[Dames]

Thielen is a 4.4 guy, he's not Tyreek Hill but he's no slouch either.

I was wrong again.

Thielen is also great at making adjustments. He's not much of a straight-line burner guy even though his 40 time is fast, but he's still a really good deep threat. More importantly, he frees up Diggs from getting doubled so much! We really miss him, even though Cousins has been really good despite him being gone. We are way more dangerous with Thielen the line up though.

[VikingLord]

The deep one to Treadwell I felt Cousins looked the safety off very well. I also felt the Safety bit on the shorter route because how often does Treadwell run deep routes. This isn't a speed demo that needs to be respected deep. I don't recall him running many vertical routes. I think the safety was expecting the shorter pass and was looking for the pick. Give Cousins credit for the look off and seeing the safety coming down. That's hard to do and a big time play. This expecting shorter throws might have to do with the players and scheme. Diggs can get deep but who else can? Certainly not Treadwell. Adam T isn't considered a burner either. It's not like we have a lighting volt out there.

Looking a single player off only should work if the defender has to choose between two competing options. In this case, the shorter target was already well covered IIRC, while Treadwell was wide open deep. There was no conundrum for the safety on that play. He jumped a shorter route that was already covered and left a deep WR wide open.

The credit I can give Cousins on that play is that he kept the play alive and found Treadwell, but it wasn't like it was hard to find Treadwell. It was a nice throw, easily caught, so I'll give Cousins credit for that too.

[CharVike]

The deep one to Treadwell I felt Cousins looked the safety off very well. I also felt the Safety bit on the shorter route because how often does Treadwell run deep routes. This isn't a speed demo that needs to be respected deep. I don't recall him running many vertical routes. I think the safety was expecting the shorter pass and was looking for the pick. Give Cousins credit for the look off and seeing the safety coming down. That's hard to do and a big time play. This expecting shorter throws might have to do with the players and scheme. Diggs can get deep but who else can? Certainly not Treadwell. Adam T isn't considered a burner either. It's not like we have a lighting volt out there.

Looking a single player off only should work if the defender has to choose between two competing options. In this case, the shorter target was already well covered IIRC, while Treadwell was wide open deep. There was no conundrum for the safety on that play. He jumped a shorter route that was already covered and left a deep WR wide open.

The credit I can give Cousins on that play is that he kept the play alive and found Treadwell, but it wasn't like it was hard to find Treadwell. It was a nice throw, easily caught, so I'll give Cousins credit for that too.

I think your wrong with that. Few QBs look guys off. I can list plenty of Viking QBs that couldn't make that play. I can start with Joe Webb and can continue but I don't want to blow the form up. IMO that's a lost play for most in todays world. If I was Cousins I wouldn't even look for Treadwell. That's a stat killer. That's the stupid thing he did on that play. With Treadwell it's about 10-90 if he can even catch it. It's about 1-99 him beating anybody deep. That took guts and some stupidity. I forgot about throwing to a stiff WR that shouldn't be in the NFL. And wasn't for some time.

[VikingLord]

I think your wrong with that. Few QBs look guys off. I can list plenty of Viking QBs that couldn't make that play. I can start with Joe Webb and can continue but I don't want to blow the form up. IMO that's a lost play for most in todays world. If I was Cousins I wouldn't even look for Treadwell. That's a stat killer. That's the stupid thing he did on that play. With Treadwell it's about 10-90 if he can even catch it. It's about 1-99 him beating anybody deep. That took guts and some stupidity. I forgot about throwing to a stiff WR that shouldn't be in the NFL. And wasn't for some time.

Well, with all due respect I don't think Cousins looked the safety off on that play. The way I saw it, the safety chose to ignore the deep receiver and jump the short route, probably thinking he could pick it and make a splash play and the Seahawks paid dearly for it.

Treadwell has played pretty well since the Vikings brought him back. He's made some tough catches and seems to be reliable. I don't get the sense that Cousins is avoiding throwing to him or there isn't trust between the two.

[CharVike]

I think your wrong with that. Few QBs look guys off. I can list plenty of Viking QBs that couldn't make that play. I can start with Joe Webb and can continue but I don't want to blow the form up. IMO that's a lost play for most in todays world. If I was Cousins I wouldn't even look for Treadwell. That's a stat killer. That's the stupid thing he did on that play. With Treadwell it's about 10-90 if he can even catch it. It's about 1-99 him beating anybody deep. That took guts and some stupidity. I forgot about throwing to a stiff WR that shouldn't be in the NFL. And wasn't for some time.

Well, with all due respect I don't think Cousins looked the safety off on that play. The way I saw it, the safety chose to ignore the deep receiver and jump the short route, probably thinking he could pick it and make a splash play and the Seahawks paid dearly for it.

Treadwell has played pretty well since the Vikings brought him back. He's made some tough catches and seems to be reliable. I don't get the sense that Cousins is avoiding throwing to him or there isn't trust between the two.

We all have an opinion which is ok. I'm just pointing out the fact that Treadwell blows. No teams wants him on their roster. He was on the street. We had some guys go down and had no other choice. He's caught a few passes. I'm basically giving Cousins all the credit. As you pointed out the safety gave Cousins that play. I hope the Charges give us one of them. We will need it more so than we did against the Lions. Man what a pitiful squad they have. Zero chance of moving forward at this point. They are stuck. The only chance will be if they blow it up. Clean house starting with the QB and just work your way down.

[TSonn]

I don't think so. If that were the case, you would see a dramatic decrease in time to throw, and we haven't outside of the Denver game. With the Denver game, Cousins averaged more air yards per completion than any of the past 4 games. Which is weird because they have the best pass rush we have faced, and got to Cousins more than any team since Chicago.

Plus, Seattle is actually really bad at rushing the passer this season, yet we only had 2 passes completed over 10 yards.

It is almost like the play calling gets way more conservative when we play big games. Like they are afraid of a repeat of GB and Chicago.

I don't know what plays are being called or whether on most passing plays Cousins has a deep option. It could be that the playcalling itself is more conservative in big games, or it could be that Cousins is willing to take fewer chances in big games. Heck, it could be that in bigger games or in pressure situations, Cousins is simply not patient and not seeing the field. That could be a result of his route progressions as well. An recent example is the 4th down play late against the Seahawks. Cousins locked onto Irv Smith and attempted to force that pass as Smith came out of his break almost regardless of the fact he was covered when had he waited just a click more he might have spotted Mattison wide open at the marker.

This isn't intended to be a criticism of Cousins who I think has played well overall. It's just more an observation that without knowing what the receivers are doing on each play and how open (or not) they might be, it's much harder to say the overall offense is designed to be conservative. It could be that Cousins is just reading the defense and going with the option he feels is the safest play, and perhaps the more than he feels is on the line, the more inclined he is to play it safe. There isn't anything wrong with that necessarily if the safer option works, and all things being equal, that is smart football. I don't know how far the offense can get using that approach in the playoffs, though.

One other telling thing I noticed was on the deep TD to Treadwell in the Seahawks game was when the safety released Treadwell and jumped the shorter route. I know defensive coordinators and defensive backs study the tendencies of their opponents, and that single play told me volumes about what they see when they watch Cousins and the Vikings offense. Safeties are there to be the last line of defense against the big play, and with few exceptions you almost never see them choose to jump a shorter route over a deeper route. I don't know how good that safety is overall. He might just be incompetent and a freelancer who gets away with guessing, but on that play, he seemed very confident that Cousins would not see the deeper option and would try to complete the shorter one.

IIRC, there were a few examples of that in the earlier game against the Bears, too, but in that game Cousins didn't see the deeper route.

So yeah, it does seem like there is some evidence to suggest that defenses expect the shorter throws and are even willing to gamble that the ball won't go deep even if the route is open if Cousins is under some pressure. Cousins can clearly throw the deep ball, so this tendency might be a situational thing or something a defense feels it can cause to happen if it brings pressure or something.

Hopefully, the Vikings will open it up downfield some more, and not just when they're forced to do it by the situation, but to dictate the pace and also to keep the defense honest. The run game in particular has slowed a lot as of late, and I can't help but think that the more conservative play and shorter passes are allowing the DBs to creep up and help shut the run down. This upcoming game on Sunday might be a good time to remind the Vikings remaining opponents that if they do that, the Vikings can make them pay.

I think it's a combination of Thielen being out and Zimmer going more conservative against teams we should beat on paper. This was another game that was at halftime in just over an hour. Lots of running the clock, limiting mistakes that can allow a weaker team to get in, and just getting the game over quickly.

It's boring football and it keeps our guys away from the MVP discussion since we don't put up crazy stats in these games but it works.

[Maelstrom88]

It was a pretty ho hum boring victory. Would have liked to see them dominate a little more but a win is a win and those guys are pros too. Was nice to see Hunter get 3 sacks.