Kirk Cousins is just NOT a big game quarterback

[VikingLord]

Ooph.
http://espn1005.com/week-4-nfl-qb-award ... line-dime/

Although he averaged 2.69 seconds in the pocket per dropback, the second-highest mark of Week 4, Cousins’ average pass traveled 4.8 yards short of the line to gain. That’s an exceptionally conservative figure, and it suggests at least some of the pressure was a result of holding onto the ball too long.

The solution might be to bench him. As much as that would suck, as much egg as that would leave on Spielman's face, benching Cousins in favor of a less skittish QB might be the answer.

Find a guy who wants to be out there.

I don't know if Mannion is the answer, but if Cousins has lost his moxie (if he ever had it), sit him down and find someone who isn't afraid.

[StumpHunter]

Ooph.
http://espn1005.com/week-4-nfl-qb-award ... line-dime/

The solution might be to bench him. As much as that would suck, as much egg as that would leave on Spielman's face, benching Cousins in favor of a less skittish QB might be the answer.

Find a guy who wants to be out there.

I don't know if Mannion is the answer, but if Cousins has lost his moxie (if he ever had it), sit him down and find someone who isn't afraid.

Maybe just bench him against good teams? I think he plays fine against the Giants, and the Eagles pass defense is awful. Cousins is pretty consistent at beating those types of teams and I think there is little chance Mannion would be.

If he does struggle against the Giants, it is time to move on, but maybe with the next two games he gets right in the head and finds some confidence.


One good thing about his poor play is that it makes him more likely to renegotiate his deal next year and we might actually be able to make the team better via FAs. He needs to do well in 2020 to make bank in 2021, so it is in his best interest to free up cap for the Vikings.

[VikingLord]

Spiers is the kind of guy you want at QB:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qocmVDu3BE

[TSonn]

I watched all of Kirk's "Wired Up" and "Turning Point" videos the week after we signed him and I was really impressed by this one in particular:



I thought, man we're getting a baller! When the offense is lackadaisical he'll get them fired up! But what happened to that guy? Maybe Cousins doesn't feel like the leader on offense and doesn't take charge like he did in Washington? Maybe something about our team/coach/culture is holding him back from playing the game how he wants to play it?

The quote around the 3:00 mark is interesting now. Kirk is on the sidelines in a game they are winning talking about the offense going conservative to hold the lead. He says:

"Sometimes I get in a weird place when we get a lead like this where you start playing conservative, you know, not to lose and it's smart to do that but it also kinda hinders your ability to just go play."

I fear that Zimmer's philosophy of always being conservative on offense (even when we're not winning) has put Kirk into that "weird place" consistently and not able to "just go play" since he joined the team.

[J. Kapp 11]

Ooph.
http://espn1005.com/week-4-nfl-qb-award ... line-dime/

The solution might be to bench him. As much as that would suck, as much egg as that would leave on Spielman's face, benching Cousins in favor of a less skittish QB might be the answer.

Find a guy who wants to be out there.

I don't know if Mannion is the answer, but if Cousins has lost his moxie (if he ever had it), sit him down and find someone who isn't afraid.

I didn't actually watch the game. I was playing in a golf tournament, and when I got done and saw the score, I decided I didn't want to even watch the replay on my DVR. I mean, who wants to watch THAT?

But on The Daily Norseman, I found a coach's tape of all of Kirk Cousins' throws against the Bears. Two views of each -- side view, then all-22 view. It's 11 minutes long. I thought, "I can handle 11 minutes," so I watched it.

Frankly, I was surprised.

What I saw was a QB who was under pressure, but rarely INTENSE pressure. I expected to see Cousins running for his life play after play, but that wasn't the case. Most plays, he had time to throw more than a checkdown, but he chose the checkdown anyway. It seemed clear to me that he's not trusting himself or his line, one of the two (or both). According to PFF, he had something like the third-most time to throw this week, and for the season, he's had the MOST time to throw of any quarterback in the NFL. The problem Sunday wasn't time to throw. It was the pressure Cousins perceived.

Put another way, he played scared.

I don't even think he was LOOKING downfield, because if he was, he would have seen Thielen open about four different times. Instead, he was getting jittery and happy-footed and desperately looking for CJ Ham. We're not going to win games throwing to CJ Ham.

I don't know what the answer is, but it seems clear that NFL teams are simply going to go after Cousins in virtually every passing situation. They'll send blitzers and do whatever they have to do to make him -- ugh -- scared. It seems impossible to bench a $29.5 million quarterback, but if this continues, something's got to give.

[Dames]

The solution might be to bench him. As much as that would suck, as much egg as that would leave on Spielman's face, benching Cousins in favor of a less skittish QB might be the answer.

Find a guy who wants to be out there.

I don't know if Mannion is the answer, but if Cousins has lost his moxie (if he ever had it), sit him down and find someone who isn't afraid.

I didn't actually watch the game. I was playing in a golf tournament, and when I got done and saw the score, I decided I didn't want to even watch the replay on my DVR. I mean, who wants to watch THAT?

But on The Daily Norseman, I found a coach's tape of all of Kirk Cousins' throws against the Bears. Two views of each -- side view, then all-22 view. It's 11 minutes long. I thought, "I can handle 11 minutes," so I watched it.

Frankly, I was surprised.

What I saw was a QB who was under pressure, but rarely INTENSE pressure. I expected to see Cousins running for his life play after play, but that wasn't the case. Most plays, he had time to throw more than a checkdown, but he chose the checkdown anyway. It seemed clear to me that he's not trusting himself or his line, one of the two (or both). According to PFF, he had something like the third-most time to throw this week, and for the season, he's had the MOST time to throw of any quarterback in the NFL. The problem Sunday wasn't time to throw. It was the pressure Cousins perceived.

Put another way, he played scared.

I don't even think he was LOOKING downfield, because if he was, he would have seen Thielen open about four different times. Instead, he was getting jittery and happy-footed and desperately looking for CJ Ham. We're not going to win games throwing to CJ Ham.

I don't know what the answer is, but it seems clear that NFL teams are simply going to go after Cousins in virtually every passing situation. They'll send blitzers and do whatever they have to do to make him -- ugh -- scared. It seems impossible to bench a $29.5 million quarterback, but if this continues, something's got to give.

I was very much on board with the Cousin's signing, and have been a bit of an apologist, but Sunday may have been the last straw for me. That was just too much.

I watched part of that video myself before getting frustrated again. It pretty much confirmed what I thought I saw while watching it live. I completely agree that he looked scared to throw it. There were multiple plays where he could have and should have taken the deep shot, but for whatever reason failed to pull the trigger. Diggs and Theilen were both getting open a lot. Not just deep shots either. Wide open in the middle of the field and he's checking down to the FB. I'm not sure if that's coaching tell him to play ultra-conservative or if it's Cousin's doing. Maybe a mix of both. Either way, SOMEONE should have been in his ear telling him to change his approach in the middle of the game. (Especially once we were down by multiple scores.)

Chicago has an excellent defense, but as the video shows, he had the time and the open receivers on enough plays where we could have won that game. He really looked shell-shocked. And unfortunately we've seen this happen too often for me to dismiss it anymore.

That said, benching him for Mannion probably really isn't the answer. No, I don't think keeping Sloter would have saved the season, but I do wish we had more of a gun-slinger at QB sometimes. In games like these, you need have big balls sometimes. That's the reason everyone loved Case so much. And, no... I don't think Case is good either. Cousins can be amazing when things are going well. The comeback against GB last year for example. He was ballin'. He did well against the Rams too. Yeah, yeah, the fumble at the end was a killer. He'll have some great games this year I'm sure, but I just don't trust that he'll show up when we really need him. I think it's mental. He's great when he's relaxed, which is probably why he's good when the game is out of reach. He's good when things go well early in the game. The nerves settle down at that point. But, when things go awry early, I think he wilts under the pressure. I'd love to be wrong about this... but I think the pattern is pretty clear.

[VikingLord]

I watched part of that video myself before getting frustrated again. It pretty much confirmed what I thought I saw while watching it live. I completely agree that he looked scared to throw it. There were multiple plays where he could have and should have taken the deep shot, but for whatever reason failed to pull the trigger. Diggs and Theilen were both getting open a lot. Not just deep shots either. Wide open in the middle of the field and he's checking down to the FB. I'm not sure if that's coaching tell him to play ultra-conservative or if it's Cousin's doing. Maybe a mix of both. Either way, SOMEONE should have been in his ear telling him to change his approach in the middle of the game. (Especially once we were down by multiple scores.)

I think he was afraid to make a throw that looked open, but then the Bears jumped the route and picked it. Last year the Bears were really good at that, and in their game against Washington they looked like the 2018 defense in the secondary again.

They were in Cousins' head, both with the rush and with the risk associated with deeper throws. Even on the early one where Thielen was open deep Cousins overthrew it. He didn't put too much on that because he was afraid Thielen could or would outrun it. He put too much on it because he's afraid an under throw gets picked. He did the same thing with Diggs at the Packers. He'd rather err on the side of safety than take a risk, and so far it's not paying off for him.

[Dames]

I think he was afraid to make a throw that looked open, but then the Bears jumped the route and picked it. Last year the Bears were really good at that, and in their game against Washington they looked like the 2018 defense in the secondary again.

They were in Cousins' head, both with the rush and with the risk associated with deeper throws. Even on the early one where Thielen was open deep Cousins overthrew it. He didn't put too much on that because he was afraid Thielen could or would outrun it. He put too much on it because he's afraid an under throw gets picked. He did the same thing with Diggs at the Packers. He'd rather err on the side of safety than take a risk, and so far it's not paying off for him.

Right, I think he is very risk-averse in what he feels are "important" games (primetime, vs winning teams, etc). He does tend to change that approach once the games are basically out of hand. He seems to let go then. That's why I think it's mental.

[J. Kapp 11]

That said, benching him for Mannion probably really isn't the answer. No, I don't think keeping Sloter would have saved the season, but I do wish we had more of a gun-slinger at QB sometimes. In games like these, you need have big balls sometimes. That's the reason everyone loved Case so much. And, no... I don't think Case is good either. Cousins can be amazing when things are going well. The comeback against GB last year for example. He was ballin'. He did well against the Rams too. Yeah, yeah, the fumble at the end was a killer. He'll have some great games this year I'm sure, but I just don't trust that he'll show up when we really need him. I think it's mental. He's great when he's relaxed, which is probably why he's good when the game is out of reach. He's good when things go well early in the game. The nerves settle down at that point. But, when things go awry early, I think he wilts under the pressure. I'd love to be wrong about this... but I think the pattern is pretty clear.

It's interesting ... when Cousins first started getting serious playing time when RGIII went down, the knock on him was that he was TOO MUCH of a gunslinger. He'd throw it all over the yard ... more often than not, he'd look really good doing it. Sure, he'd make rookie mistakes, but he was a guy who took chances.

Now he's lost that confidence to let it rip. Don't know whether that's Zimmer's influence or his own demons, but it's really sad. When we signed him, I thought we were getting Brett Favre's Mini-Me. Right now, he looks like Kyle Orton's "cousin." (See what I did there?)

[CharVike]

The solution might be to bench him. As much as that would suck, as much egg as that would leave on Spielman's face, benching Cousins in favor of a less skittish QB might be the answer.

Find a guy who wants to be out there.

I don't know if Mannion is the answer, but if Cousins has lost his moxie (if he ever had it), sit him down and find someone who isn't afraid.

Maybe just bench him against good teams? I think he plays fine against the Giants, and the Eagles pass defense is awful. Cousins is pretty consistent at beating those types of teams and I think there is little chance Mannion would be.

If he does struggle against the Giants, it is time to move on, but maybe with the next two games he gets right in the head and finds some confidence.


One good thing about his poor play is that it makes him more likely to renegotiate his deal next year and we might actually be able to make the team better via FAs. He needs to do well in 2020 to make bank in 2021, so it is in his best interest to free up cap for the Vikings.

We have nothing behind him. That's another problem that we didn't address in the draft. There were guys but we never made a move because we have "our guy". The guy I wanted Denver picked. We better be willing to wheel and deal in this draft. I don't care about the cost. We need a QB badly. That needs to be fixed first.

[VikingLord]

Now he's lost that confidence to let it rip. Don't know whether that's Zimmer's influence or his own demons, but it's really sad. When we signed him, I thought we were getting Brett Favre's Mini-Me. Right now, he looks like Kyle Orton's "cousin." (See what I did there?)

I don't think it's Zimmer's influence. It's one thing if all the routes are short or the Vikes constantly use max protect schemes, but neither is the case. There are usually deeper routes being run by very talented receivers.

If Zimmer is telling Cousins anything, it's probably something along the lines of play smart. Don't take unnecessary risks (see: Loss to Green Bay, Week 2 of the 2019 season for reference...)

I'm just not sure how Zimmer or Stefanski can help him at this point. They can design and call the plays and provide him with the receiving options. They can keep running it and keep defenses honest against the run, maximizing the impact play action has on helping to delay the pass rush. They can tell him look, just let it go. I'd rather see you make mistakes and throw an INT or two if it helps you throw a TD or three.

He's got to be able to drop back, scan the field, see where he wants to go with the ball and GO there. Even if he gets plowed a few times. His focus has to be downfield and on what he wants to happen, not on the rush or the DBs or fear of any kind. If he can get past feeling fear and instead start feeling conviction about what he wants to happen, he's going to start being a positive instead of a negative. He has to play smart. Playing with conviction isn't playing recklessly. But if the play is there, make the play. Then go and make another. And then keep doing that until the score is 56-0 and everyone is over on the sidelines joking and laughing.

[J. Kapp 11]

Regarding the apology by Kirk Cousins to Adam Thielen ...

I agree with Mike Florio and Chris Simms on Pro Football Talk. I love Adam Thielen, but he shouldn't have gone public with his comments. He should have kept those things in-house and said them directly to Cousins or to his coaches. In every locker room from high school on up, you don't call out your teammates in public. It was wrong, a definite breach of good protocol.

But then to make matters worse, Cousins then apologized to Thielen on his podcast ... with Thielen in the studio. If anything, Thielen should have apologized to Cousins. But he didn't.

This is not what a leader does. Can anybody here imagine Tom Brady, Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers apologizing to a wide receiver? It shows how weak Cousins truly is. It appears he's one of those guys you can run over because he'll just take it. Thielen was wrong, and Cousins apologized. Think about that.

Finally, Mike Zimmer threw gas on the fire by failing to address it in his Monday press conference. He should have said what guys like Belichick would say: "Some things were said in frustration after the game. Those things should have stayed in the locker room, and we're going to deal with it internally. Next question."

Bottom line, Adam Thielen shouldn't have called out his quarterback, Mike Zimmer should have handled the backlash when he did, and Kirk Cousins shouldn't have said ANYTHING (and if Mike Zimmer would have handled it, he wouldn't have had to say anything).

Want to know what's wrong with our Vikings? That pretty much sums it up. Where's the leadership? Let me know when you find it.

[TSonn]

This is not what a leader does. Can anybody here imagine Tom Brady, Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers apologizing to a wide receiver? It shows how weak Cousins truly is. It appears he's one of those guys you can run over because he'll just take it. Thielen was wrong, and Cousins apologized. Think about that.

Disagree. I think Thielen was fine to voice his frustrations and I'm glad Cousins apologized. It doesn't show weakness, it shows accountability. Even though it sounds like a broken record at this point, Cousins takes responsibility for his mistakes and I like that about him. I wish he wasn't needing to take responsibility as often as he does, but that's where we're at.

We haven't had much media drama with our team since Zimmer took over, maybe we need some to fire up some guys.

[vikeinmontana]

This is not what a leader does. Can anybody here imagine Tom Brady, Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers apologizing to a wide receiver? It shows how weak Cousins truly is. It appears he's one of those guys you can run over because he'll just take it. Thielen was wrong, and Cousins apologized. Think about that.

Disagree. I think Thielen was fine to voice his frustrations and I'm glad Cousins apologized. It doesn't show weakness, it shows accountability. Even though it sounds like a broken record at this point, Cousins takes responsibility for his mistakes and I like that about him. I wish he wasn't needing to take responsibility as often as he does, but that's where we're at.

We haven't had much media drama with our team since Zimmer took over, maybe we need some to fire up some guys.

I don't like that Cousins apologized either. While I agree one million percent with what Thielen said, you don't do that in public either. We all know it. We all think it. They need to have that talk in house. By the same token if you're Cousins, don't effing apologize on your damn podcast! That was a joke. And don't apologize at all. I promise you, as backwards as it seems to us regular people, a public apology from a QB to his receiver who blasted him didn't gain him any respect in that locker room. I think Diggs unhappiness and missing practice yesterday is evidence of this.

The bottom line is the only thing that can save this relationship and our season is Cousins balling out. He can only earn trust and respect by playing great football. I'm not convinced he's able to do that but I am convinced that's his only option at this point.

[The negotiator]

That said, benching him for Mannion probably really isn't the answer. No, I don't think keeping Sloter would have saved the season, but I do wish we had more of a gun-slinger at QB sometimes. In games like these, you need have big balls sometimes. That's the reason everyone loved Case so much. And, no... I don't think Case is good either. Cousins can be amazing when things are going well. The comeback against GB last year for example. He was ballin'. He did well against the Rams too. Yeah, yeah, the fumble at the end was a killer. He'll have some great games this year I'm sure, but I just don't trust that he'll show up when we really need him. I think it's mental. He's great when he's relaxed, which is probably why he's good when the game is out of reach. He's good when things go well early in the game. The nerves settle down at that point. But, when things go awry early, I think he wilts under the pressure. I'd love to be wrong about this... but I think the pattern is pretty clear.

It's interesting ... when Cousins first started getting serious playing time when RGIII went down, the knock on him was that he was TOO MUCH of a gunslinger. He'd throw it all over the yard ... more often than not, he'd look really good doing it. Sure, he'd make rookie mistakes, but he was a guy who took chances.

Now he's lost that confidence to let it rip. Don't know whether that's Zimmer's influence or his own demons, but it's really sad. When we signed him, I thought we were getting Brett Favre's Mini-Me. Right now, he looks like Kyle Orton's "cousin." (See what I did there?)

Good one Kapp, I went to you tube and watched a lot of Joe Kapp highlights. Can see why he was your favorite. Bobby Lane, qb for the Lions was a lot like him. His teamates said he played better hung over. Both were tough nosed, take no prisoners type quarterbacks. Bobby once threw his left guard out of the huddle after he got sacked and yelled at his coach Buddy Parker “get me somebody who can block”. He was something special!