Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

[Pondering Her Percy]

10 other GMs didn't trade away their only shot at drafting Mahommes for Bradford. Ours did.

Dude why does it matter if those teams had a first round pick or not? Bottom line is, they passed on Mahomes whether it was through a trade or not drafting him. What is the difference? There isnt one. And all the teams after 10th overall (outside of the Giants and Chiefs) did not try to trade up for him. So I guess all those GMs and coaches suck too....




Spielman was trying to salvage the season knowing we already had a good team. And it looked like a pretty good move given we started 5-0. But our offensive lineman eventually became borderline practice squad players and we crapped the bed after that. Bradford wasnt the problem that season. He threw 20 TDs and 5 INTs on a brand new team. He had a few bad games for sure but our OL might have been worse then than it was last year for Cousins. AP didnt make it past week 2. Defense started to crap the bed by years end. And so on.



And there it is! It was only Kirk's responsibility to get us to the playoffs right? Not anyone else on the offense, defense, ST, coaching staff, etc? Just Kirk right? Because it's his fault we didnt make it? Guys like Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Big Ben, etc, have excuses to why they didnt make it but Kirk isnt allowed any. Seems total fair. You're basing everything off of assumption with Mahomes. You have no idea how many wins we would have, where we would be picking, how far KC was willing to trade up, etc. And you have nothing to go off of. So I guess you can keep dreaming in fantasy land and think our GM sucks and keep hating on Kirk Cousins but in the end, he's our QB. In the end you cant do thing about his contract. And in the end we dont have Pat Mahomes which according to you, means our GM sucks because he should have known. And it must mean every other NFL GM must suck too for passing on him. I truly find it hilarious that you're now going down the Pat Mahomes road.....after alllllll these conversations about Cousins you have had on here.....NOW you bring him up. Sounds like an act of desperation if you ask me

[StumpHunter]

Dude why does it matter if those teams had a first round pick or not? Bottom line is, they passed on Mahomes whether it was through a trade or not drafting him. What is the difference? There isnt one. And all the teams after 10th overall (outside of the Giants and Chiefs) did not try to trade up for him. So I guess all those GMs and coaches suck too....

Not every team had a massive need at QB. We did. We had a garbage QB in Bradford, a guy who they were thinking would never play again, and Case Keenum. Did the Bears, Jets and Cleveland's GM blow it big time in that draft? Absolutely they did, but that doesn't mean Spielman didn't blow it more. At least they got Garret, Trubiskey and Adams out of the deal. We got worse than nothing in a big cap hit for a complete garbage of a QB.

Spielman was trying to salvage the season knowing we already had a good team. And it looked like a pretty good move given we started 5-0. But our offensive lineman eventually became borderline practice squad players and we crapped the bed after that. Bradford wasnt the problem that season. He threw 20 TDs and 5 INTs on a brand new team. He had a few bad games for sure but our OL might have been worse then than it was last year for Cousins. AP didnt make it past week 2. Defense started to crap the bed by years end. And so on.

The Walker trade was made with good intentions, but that doesn't make it the worst trade in MN sports history. Good intentions don't make trades not horrible, results of those trades do. Bradford was never going to salvage the season. No QB available was going to, because good QBs aren't available a week before the season starts.

And there it is! It was only Kirk's responsibility to get us to the playoffs right? Not anyone else on the offense, defense, ST, coaching staff, etc? Just Kirk right? Because it's his fault we didnt make it? Guys like Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Big Ben, etc, have excuses to why they didnt make it but Kirk isnt allowed any. Seems total fair. You're basing everything off of assumption with Mahomes. You have no idea how many wins we would have, where we would be picking, how far KC was willing to trade up, etc. And you have nothing to go off of. So I guess you can keep dreaming in fantasy land and think our GM sucks and keep hating on Kirk Cousins but in the end, he's our QB. In the end you cant do thing about his contract. And in the end we dont have Pat Mahomes which according to you, means our GM sucks because he should have known. And it must mean every other NFL GM must suck too for passing on him. I truly find it hilarious that you're now going down the Pat Mahomes road.....after alllllll these conversations about Cousins you have had on here.....NOW you bring him up. Sounds like an act of desperation if you ask me

Let me help you out.

I never said it was only Kirk's responsibility to get us into the playoffs, only that any QB, like Kirk, could have not made the playoffs last year. It didn't take a 84 million dollar QB to do that, I could have done that.

There are multiple reasons our GM sucks. Losing out on Mahommes is a big one, putting a crap line in front of an expensive immobile QB is another, giving the Eagles cap space to sign Jefferson and a draft pick to add a DE that strip sacked our QB in the NFCCG is another. Wasting AP's prime with QBs like Ponder and Cassel is another.

I truly find it hilarious that you're now going down the Pat Mahomes road.....after alllllll these conversations about Cousins you have had on here.....NOW you bring him up. Sounds like an act of desperation if you ask me

I hate to break it to you, but we have had this argument about Mahommes on here before. You were in denial then too.

You have no idea how many wins we would have,

So now we are back to winning 8 or more with Hill? Make up your mind.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I hate to break it to you, but we have had this argument about Mahommes on here before. You were in denial then too.

I'll address the rest of this later since I'm about to leave work but whaaaat? I dont ever recall having any kind of conversation with you or anyone else on this board about us possibly drafting Mahomes. Maybe something brief about possibly drafting a QB that year with someone. But whatever makes you feel better I guess! Since the day Kirk Cousins was signed, I dont even think I've seen you type the word "Mahomes" on here. But since you are running out of avenues with your slew of weak arguments regarding Cousins, I guess it's not a bad idea to resort to Pat Mahomes as a last gasp. A for effort.

[StumpHunter]

I hate to break it to you, but we have had this argument about Mahommes on here before. You were in denial then too.

I'll address the rest of this later since I'm about to leave work but whaaaat? I dont ever recall having any kind of conversation with you or anyone else on this board about us possibly drafting Mahomes. Maybe something brief about possibly drafting a QB that year with someone. But whatever makes you feel better I guess! Since the day Kirk Cousins was signed, I dont even think I've seen you type the word "Mahomes" on here. But since you are running out of avenues with your slew of weak arguments regarding Cousins, I guess it's not a bad idea to resort to Pat Mahomes as a last gasp. A for effort.

Dude do you not realize how long it takes to groom an NFL QB? Or how difficult it is to find one day one that can come in and play good enough to win you a SB?? Pretty easy to sit here NOW and say "yeah I wanted Mahomes or Watson!!".

It was obvious to anyone with a brain that Bradford wasn't the answer at QB. If you don't believe Teddy is going to come back from his injury, how do you give away the most proven way to get a franchise guy (a first round pick) after he goes down? What is the horrible thought process behind that?

From another thread:

The Bradford trade was atrocious, and I can't believe people still defend it. A need at a position does not justify a bad trade. It never has, it never will. Trading a 1st round pick in a draft that has Mahommes and Watson for a bad QB (there is no denying he is bad at this point, unless you are delusional) is a terrible decision. Just awful.

Seems like I have been pretty consistent.

[VikingsVictorious]

9 times out of 10 when you draft a QB even if he eventually ends up being great (which is seldom) he usually isn't great until it's time to sign his second contract. Wentz is one of the best, but he sure wasn't great last year and he already got his huge extension. So the draft the great QB idea doesn't work. If the Vikings went all in on drafting a great QB from this point forward maybe we would get one in the next ten years that would become great about five years into his contract. Maybe? Probably a 1in 5 chance of it happening.
Also remember if we go all in on drafting a QB we will neglect other important areas. If we had drafted Lock this year we wouldn't have Bradbury. How much impact would that have on the team? Going all in on drafting the QB simply isn't worth it. We got Cousins and all it cost us was salary cap. It was the right move.

Not sure where you are getting 9 times out of 10 from? Carr had his best year on his rookie deal. Bortles the same. Wentz was going to win the MVP in his second season. Goff was pretty good in his 3rd seasons. Mahommes was elite in his second. Brady won it in his second season, same with Big Ben and Wilson. Should I go on?

Cousins MIGHT be the right move. The jury is still out on whether or not he was. History says paying a QB of his caliber that much money in FAs was the wrong move, but he could be the exception.

Look, my issue with Cousins isn't really an issue with Cousins at all. It is with the GM who screwed up our QB situation so bad overpaying Cousins that much money was an option. It is also with the fans who refuse to hold management accountable for any poor decision, defending the Bradford trade to this day because their team can do no wrong.

If you have the opinion that Cousins, despite his salary, is the best chance at a Super Bowl and long term success, that is a valid opinion. I disagree with that opinion, but he IS a good passer and an above average NFL QB. Just don't come at me with this "QB don't win Super Bowls" crap because you don't think our QB is a Super Bowl winning caliber QB.

Teams win Super Bowls. The QB is part of the team. I have yet to see a QB go out on the field by himself and win anything. Cousins is plenty good to be part of a team that wins a Super Bowl. The 9/10 I'm talking about are Rookie QBs coming into the league and winning a Super Bowl with them as the ELITE star of the team During their first 5 years. Tell me the last one who did it. Russell Wilson did, but he definitely shared the Glory with Lynch and the D. Brady did. Those are the two QBs I can think of in the last 20 years. How many QBs were drafted during the last 20 years. Jury is very out on Wentz. He had one great year cut short by injury and 2 losing seasons. That is the entirety of his resume. Carr has no resume. Goff had a good season last year, but is certainly not an Elite lead his team to a Super Bowl victory QB. Bortles LMAO. Mahomes is looking sensational and I expect him to remain so. He is IMO a Super Bowl Winning caliber QB. My best guess is he retires from the game without a Super Bowl victory. To be fair my best guess is that Cousins retires from the game without a Super Bowl victory, but IMO he gives us our best chance of the options we had.

[VikingsVictorious]

I can link to fan posts where I have been consistent on what I wanted the Vikings to do at QB. I wanted them to roll with the punches after Teddy went down and take the high draft pick in 2017, drafting Teddy's replacement. Instead they traded a high draft pick for a below average injured QB. If the Vikings had done what I wanted to do, the odds are pretty good they have a ring right now with a Jefferson-less and Barnett-less Eagles squad going up against Mahommes and not Keenum in the 2017 NFCCG.

After the 2016 season, I wanted the Vikings to trade Bradford at what was probably his peak value and get the draft capital to draft a replacement for Teddy. Didn't happen, and we only got 2 games out of Bradford.

This is not hindsight for me. I was more right than the GM, and there is no one more upset about me being more right than a guy paid millions to make decisions for my favorite team than me.

Did you miss the part where I said Mahomes was drafted at 10 and we would have picked at 14?? Saying you wanted us to draft Teddy's replacement is one thing. Saying you wanted Pat Mahomes from the start is another. Because like I said above, KC would have still picked Mahomes and we would have been stuck with Paxton Lynch. Not sure why you arent seeing that. We didnt technically pass on Mahomes. He would have been off the board at our pick. And if teams knew how good he really was, he would have went first overall. But either way, you can go down the "we'd have a ring" road all you want but Mahomes wouldnt have been on this team regardless. That's like saying "we should have drafted Russell Wilson in 2012". Nobody knew if Wilson was going to be good or not. But since I know he's good now, I'm going to say we should have picked him! lol. Like that's just not reality. Sure we could have passed on Bradford and drafted but I could almost guarantee you we werent landing Mahomes. So why are you even going down that road? Because it's the only string you have left to hang onto. You picked a once in a decade QB to help your argument against not signing Kirk Cousins.....weird....

If I had 20/20 hindsight I would have figured out some way for us to have drafted Mahomes. I'm sure that Spielman would have also. Unfortunately we don't have the ability to foretell the future. We give it our best guess and win some and lose some. I'm already predicting the future with this years #1 pick. I see many Pro Bowls and at least one All Pro.

[VikingsVictorious]

lol yeah because you knew Mahomes was the next best thing at QB that year It's so easy to sit here and say we should have drafted this guy or that guy because you KNOW they are good NOW. I highly doubt that was the case back then. No less, we would've picked 14th that year. KC traded up to 10th to draft him. Which would have jumped us. So yeah we probably would've been forced to take Lynch that year because we would have no idea KC was coming up that far to take Mahomes. But of course this is the only possible thing you're hanging onto right now by saying we should have drafted Mahomes. You're grasping for air at this point. All of the sudden, after months and months of you complaining about Cousins, you are going to NOW say we should have drafted Mahomes..... You're hanging on by a thread here man.

I can link to fan posts where I have been consistent on what I wanted the Vikings to do at QB. I wanted them to roll with the punches after Teddy went down and take the high draft pick in 2017, drafting Teddy's replacement. Instead they traded a high draft pick for a below average injured QB. If the Vikings had done what I wanted to do, the odds are pretty good they have a ring right now with a Jefferson-less and Barnett-less Eagles squad going up against Mahommes and not Keenum in the 2017 NFCCG.

After the 2016 season, I wanted the Vikings to trade Bradford at what was probably his peak value and get the draft capital to draft a replacement for Teddy. Didn't happen, and we only got 2 games out of Bradford.

This is not hindsight for me. I was more right than the GM, and there is no one more upset about me being more right than a guy paid millions to make decisions for my favorite team than me.

I want to see where you were on record for the Vikings to draft Mahomes and Mahomes alone? Either before we traded for Bradford or prior to Mahomes being drafted by KC. Until I see that Stump I don't think you can claim to be right about anything.

[StumpHunter]

Did you miss the part where I said Mahomes was drafted at 10 and we would have picked at 14?? Saying you wanted us to draft Teddy's replacement is one thing. Saying you wanted Pat Mahomes from the start is another. Because like I said above, KC would have still picked Mahomes and we would have been stuck with Paxton Lynch. Not sure why you arent seeing that. We didnt technically pass on Mahomes. He would have been off the board at our pick. And if teams knew how good he really was, he would have went first overall. But either way, you can go down the "we'd have a ring" road all you want but Mahomes wouldnt have been on this team regardless. That's like saying "we should have drafted Russell Wilson in 2012". Nobody knew if Wilson was going to be good or not. But since I know he's good now, I'm going to say we should have picked him! lol. Like that's just not reality. Sure we could have passed on Bradford and drafted but I could almost guarantee you we werent landing Mahomes. So why are you even going down that road? Because it's the only string you have left to hang onto. You picked a once in a decade QB to help your argument against not signing Kirk Cousins.....weird....

If I had 20/20 hindsight I would have figured out some way for us to have drafted Mahomes. I'm sure that Spielman would have also. Unfortunately we don't have the ability to foretell the future. We give it our best guess and win some and lose some. I'm already predicting the future with this years #1 pick. I see many Pro Bowls and at least one All Pro.

The easiest way to have drafted Mahomes was to not give away our 1st. It isn't hindsight to know a garbage QB wasn't going to save the 2016 season and it isn't hindsight to know that if you lose your starting QB to a career ending injury, you are going to need to draft his replacement.

[VikingsVictorious]

Really? Drafting a QB in the first round is 50/50 proposition. From 2010-2018 there were 27 QB's taken in the first round. Here's a list of some of those taken. 14 QB's out of 27. HOF's all of them. Only Bradford, Watson and Tannehill have started more than 50% of the games played since they were drafted. At least 25% of all 1st round picks(QB's) since 2010 are currently not on an NFL team.

Ryan Tannehill
Deshaun Watson
Sam Bradford
Blaine Gabbert
Teddy Bridgewater
Robert Griffin
Christian Ponder
Brandon Weeden
EJ Manuel
Jake Locker
Tim Tebow
Johnny Manziel
Marcus Mariota
Paxton Lynch

That is why the QB market is inflated.

You got me. 1st round QBs don't always turn into good QBs, so that mean the draft isn't the way to find your franchise QB. I stand corrected. I mean look at all the teams that found their franchise QBs in free agency. There is Drew Brees and...huh.

Now you can add Cousins to that list. How about Eli Manning, John Elway. The thing is you are mostly correct that you need to draft your franchise QB, because most teams unlike the Redskins lock up their franchise QBs and don't let them get away. The jury is still very out on how good Cousins will be for us. I'm quite confident he will lead us very well.

[VikingsVictorious]

If I had 20/20 hindsight I would have figured out some way for us to have drafted Mahomes. I'm sure that Spielman would have also. Unfortunately we don't have the ability to foretell the future. We give it our best guess and win some and lose some. I'm already predicting the future with this years #1 pick. I see many Pro Bowls and at least one All Pro.

The easiest way to have drafted Mahomes was to not give away our 1st. It isn't hindsight to know a garbage QB wasn't going to save the 2016 season and it isn't hindsight to know that if you lose your starting QB to a career ending injury, you are going to need to draft his replacement.

Where did you name Mahomes as the QB to draft before we traded for Bradford. I'm prepared to wait until hell freezes over for you to show me that documentation.

As for garbage QB didn't that QB start 5-0 before injuries derailed the team. Bradford was good. Things just didn't work out.

[Raptorman]

Since 1995 there have been 63 QB's taken in the first round, not including this year. Want to guess how many have won a Super Bowl? 5. 5 out of 66. So that puts the rate of 1st round QB's winning the Super Bowl in the last 24 years at 7.6%. Since the merger in 1970. The number is 13, 12%. Out of 110 QB's drafted in the first round. So people need to get over this myth that you need a first round QB to win the Super Bowl.

Edit. Moved up to 13. I missed Phil Simms as a first-round pick.

[VikingsVictorious]

Since 1995 there have been 63 QB's taken in the first round, not including this year. Want to guess how many have won a Super Bowl? 5. 5 out of 66. So that puts the rate of 1st round QB's winning the Super Bowl in the last 24 years at 7.6%. Since the merger in 1970. The number is 12, 11%. Out of 110 QB's drafted in the first round. So people need to get over this myth that you need a first round QB to win the Super Bowl.

Thanks great info. I would like to know the total amount of QBs drafted over that time and how many have won a Super Bowl. However, I'm not up to that kind of research.

[StumpHunter]

The easiest way to have drafted Mahomes was to not give away our 1st. It isn't hindsight to know a garbage QB wasn't going to save the 2016 season and it isn't hindsight to know that if you lose your starting QB to a career ending injury, you are going to need to draft his replacement.

Where did you name Mahomes as the QB to draft before we traded for Bradford. I'm prepared to wait until hell freezes over for you to show me that documentation.

Is this a prerequisite now for calling out bad decisions by the GM? I was unaware and was not a member at that time. Dang it!

[Raptorman]

Since 1995 there have been 63 QB's taken in the first round, not including this year. Want to guess how many have won a Super Bowl? 5. 5 out of 66. So that puts the rate of 1st round QB's winning the Super Bowl in the last 24 years at 7.6%. Since the merger in 1970. The number is 12, 11%. Out of 110 QB's drafted in the first round. So people need to get over this myth that you need a first round QB to win the Super Bowl.

Thanks great info. I would like to know the total amount of QBs drafted over that time and how many have won a Super Bowl. However, I'm not up to that kind of research.

Since 1960 there have been 903 QBs that have been drafted. 32 have won the super bowl. First round picks account for 23 wins. I had to add Len Dawson, who was a first-round pick in 1957.

[VikingsVictorious]

Where did you name Mahomes as the QB to draft before we traded for Bradford. I'm prepared to wait until hell freezes over for you to show me that documentation.

Is this a prerequisite now for calling out bad decisions by the GM? I was unaware and was not a member at that time. Dang it!

First of all trading for Bradford was not a bad decision IMO. Second it's easy to say the GM should be omniscient and know which QB he should be drafting and all other players as a matter of fact. You claimed we should have gone with Hill for that season and tanked for a high draft pick right after coming off a very successful season and had a shot with a good QB at winning the Super Bowl. I want to know when you first went on record saying we should draft Mahomes. Was it before we traded for Bradford? If it was then yes we probably could have tanked and got him. If it was after we traded for Bradford we didn't have a first round pick so it would have been very expensive to try to get him. If it was after Mahomes was drafted it was impossible. When did you first speak out saying we needed to draft Mahomes? Should we have drafted Lock instead of Bradbury this year? Jackson instead of Hughes last year.
Assuming Raptorman has his stats right approximately one in 30 QBs drafted wins a Super Bowl some time in there career. First round QBs about one in 14 wins a Super Bowl. I think Cousins chances of winning a Super Bowl with us are better than one in 14.