Vikings @ Panthers Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 3

[Mothman]

It seems that way to me.
I wonder how many playoff victories he's been part of since that Cowboys team that had all those HoFers on offense? That he had little to no hand in drafting?

I don't know how many playoff wins he's been involved in altogether since he was with the Cowboys but his postseason record as a head coach is 4-4.

It's worth noting that Zimmer hasn't been on the winning side of a playoff game since he was on Barry Switzer's Cowboys staff in '96. Ironically that win was against the Vikings.

I have a feeling Norv isn't the only Vikings coach who's stubborn. I think he's given great autonomy with the offense but the buck doesn't stop at OC. It stops at HC. Zimmer can't just be a glorified defensive coordinator. If he feels his OC is too stubborn, it's his job to remedy the situation. If he feels his offense is stagnant or unproductive, it's his job to do something about it.

[losperros]

i'm happy to be 3-0 as much as anyone, but 8 sacks and three int's can hide a lot of offensive deficiencies. anyone who thinks norv turner is a good offensive coordinator has to be insane. as someone noted, why isn't patterson even given a CHANCE? they start johnson who has done nothing all year and barely even throw to him either. the defense is the real deal and have been dating back to last year, but is anyone at all concerned about blair walsh biting us in the rear end again at some point this season? for a decent part of the second half all i could think about is, "we are ahead by 6 instead of 7 because of walsh." his confidence is clearly shaky at best, and anymore i change the channel when he kicks. i refuse to watch his mediocrity any longer. watching him kick feels like a coin flip and it makes me sick. why have freaking field goal kickers cost us two major playoff losses? as far as zimmer goes, there is no other coach i'd rather have and last year i said he was the best coach in football. many other people would reference belichick (and might be right), but give zimmer more time. what he has done in just over 2 seasons has been remarkable, and he's done it without any consistent offensive production. you put new england's line and trade it with our line it would be like night and day. the reason brady has been able to play this long is because he never gets hit, and neither do the back ups. if they can keep bradford upright, and change some of their passing philosophy, this team can go a long way.

Very much agree!

OTOH, I'm really hoping Blair Walsh gets his groove back! If he does, the Vikings will have solid special teams across the board.

[Mothman]

i'm happy to be 3-0 as much as anyone, but 8 sacks and three int's can hide a lot of offensive deficiencies. anyone who thinks norv turner is a good offensive coordinator has to be insane. as someone noted, why isn't patterson even given a CHANCE? they start johnson who has done nothing all year and barely even throw to him either. the defense is the real deal and have been dating back to last year, but is anyone at all concerned about blair walsh biting us in the rear end again at some point this season? for a decent part of the second half all i could think about is, "we are ahead by 6 instead of 7 because of walsh." his confidence is clearly shaky at best, and anymore i change the channel when he kicks. i refuse to watch his mediocrity any longer. watching him kick feels like a coin flip and it makes me sick. why have freaking field goal kickers cost us two major playoff losses? as far as zimmer goes, there is no other coach i'd rather have and last year i said he was the best coach in football. many other people would reference belichick (and might be right), but give zimmer more time. what he has done in just over 2 seasons has been remarkable, and he's done it without any consistent offensive production.

Exactly... so how he can he be the best coach in football? What he's done in 2 years is remarkable? What Belichick's done in 15+ years is unprecedented. Prior to him actually accomplishing it, the conventional wisdom was that a run like the Patriots have had was impossible in the age of free agency. It was thought no team could sustain success like that. Now we've seen it happen.

I like Zimmer. What he's done with the Vikings defense is very impressive. Their 3-0 record this season is very impressive too but he still has a lot to prove and there are other coaches in the league who have already done that proving.

[Nunin]

I don't know how many playoff wins he's been involved in altogether since he was with the Cowboys but his postseason record as a head coach is 4-4.

It's worth noting that Zimmer hasn't been on the winning side of a playoff game since he was on Barry Switzer's Cowboys staff in '96. Ironically that win was against the Vikings.

I have a feeling Norv isn't the only Vikings coach who's stubborn. I think he's given great autonomy with the offense but the buck doesn't stop at OC. It stops at HC. Zimmer can't just be a glorified defensive coordinator. If he feels his OC is too stubborn, it's his job to remedy the situation. If he feels his offense is stagnant or unproductive, it's his job to do something about it.

All true. There's just some weirdness in the way the offensive personnel is handled vs the defense that suggests to me that Zim defers to Turner's judgement all too often. But who knows what those conversations are really like?

[losperros]

I have a feeling Norv isn't the only Vikings coach who's stubborn. I think he's given great autonomy with the offense but the buck doesn't stop at OC. It stops at HC. Zimmer can't just be a glorified defensive coordinator. If he feels his OC is too stubborn, it's his job to remedy the situation. If he feels his offense is stagnant or unproductive, it's his job to do something about it.

Yes, the head coach oversees everything. Zimmer has to know the passing offense was putrid last year and still needs more horsepower (aside from just Diggs, who has been great). OTOH, perhaps Norv is fielding exactly the kind of offense Zimmer wants. If true, I don't think it's a good dynamic. I really believe the Vikings can get much more out of the present offense than they are.

Regarding Patterson, I've got nothing new to say but what is weird about Zimmer is how much he complemented CP during training camp. That includes saying he thought Patterson was running clean routes and was working himself into the lineup. But Cordarrelle can't seem to get much more than a touch or two offensively per game. This is perhaps the team's most explosive offensive player we're talking about.

As I've said before, I like Charles Johnson but is he honestly cutting it right now? Wouldn't it be a good idea to give Thielen and Patterson more time on the field?

[Texas Vike]

Thanks for posting. This quote is why I love Harrison Smith:

I enjoyed it too. This caught my eye:

In Danielle Hunter, who dropped Newton for a safety, they have the best situational pass rusher in the NFL

Also of note, the pre-Sunday night show with Dungy (FB night in America?) had a long segment on our game and an analysis of how our D achieved their success. Nice to see them get their due. Giants up next. They're a solid and explosive team. Can't wait to see if we're up to the challenge yet again!

[Crax]

All true. There's just some weirdness in the way the offensive personnel is handled vs the defense that suggests to me that Zim defers to Turner's judgement all too often. But who knows what those conversations are really like?

If you watch the latest 96 questions that B-Rob does, he asks people on the team "Who is the biggest kiss up to coach zim". When he asks Bradford, Bradford makes a side comment about how Zim doesn't really say much to the Offense. I personally believe that Zimmer leaves a lot of the personnel decision making up to Norv.

[mosscarter]

i'll say this mothman, i'll take us over the pats any day of the week right now. i agree with you it's early, but tom brady is probably (in my opinion he is) the greatest qb in history. or, at least he will be by the time he retires. many coaches could build a team around a qb like that. we've had a guy who puts up high school numbers passing the past two years and were a kick away from going deep into the playoffs in his second year. to say that zimmer's defense is just "good," isn't accurate. they are great.

[Nunin]

That's interesting, Crax. Thanks for the tidbit.
Makes some sense to my wonderings.

[Mothman]

i'll say this mothman, i'll take us over the pats any day of the week right now.

Why? Other than the obvious (we're Vikings fans).

i agree with you it's early, but tom brady is probably (in my opinion he is) the greatest qb in history. or, at least he will be by the time he retires. many coaches could build a team around a qb like that.

But who drafted and developed Brady and made the most of the opportunity he provided? Belichick and his staff. I think coaching's had as much to do with Brady's success as vice versa. Belichick's clearly not just along for the ride and he's a brilliant defensive mind as well.

we've had a guy who puts up high school numbers passing the past two years and were a kick away from going deep into the playoffs in his second year.

Well, they were a kick away from advancing. I wouldn't call getting out of the wild card round going deep into the playoffs. Along the same lines as my comments about Belichick and Brady above: who drafted and committed to the "guy who puts up high school numbers passing the past two years"?

to say that zimmer's defense is just "good," isn't accurate. they are great.

Good... great... either way, Zimmer still has a lot to prove as a head coach. I think a lot of Vikings fans are eager to believe he's a great HC but it seems like there's an awful lot of compartmentalization going on. It's "Zimmer's great"" and "the defense is great" but that offense stinks. That's a Norv Turner problem.

However, it's Zimmer's team and consequently, it's Zimmer's offense.

Don't get me wrong. I see the potential for Zimmer to be a great head coach but I want to see him earn it. One winning season and a playoff loss isn't enough for me. Let's keep things in perspective. After all, Brad Childress accomplished more as a Vikings head coach than Zimmer has thus far and i don't think any of us would call him a great head coach! If Zimmer truly is a great head coach, we're going to have a lot of fun as Vikings fans in the next few years and I hope that's exactly how it works out.

[Mothman]

If you watch the latest 96 questions that B-Rob does, he asks people on the team "Who is the biggest kiss up to coach zim". When he asks Bradford, Bradford makes a side comment about how Zim doesn't really say much to the Offense. I personally believe that Zimmer leaves a lot of the personnel decision making up to Norv.

He probably does but as I've been saying, it's Zimmer's team. The buck stops with him so whether he's heavily involved with the offense or minimally involved with it, in the end, the offense they put on the field is the offense of Mike Zimmer's Vikings. He's as responsible for the quality of their performance as he is for the performance of the defense and special teams.

[Texas Vike]

Don't get me wrong. I see the potential for Zimmer to be a great head coach but I want to see him earn it. One winning season and a playoff loss isn't enough for me. Let's keep things in perspective. After all, Brad Childress accomplished more as a Vikings head coach than Zimmer has thus far and i don't think any of us would call him a great head coach! If Zimmer truly is a great head coach, we're going to have a lot of fun as Vikings fans in the next few years and I hope that's exactly how it works out.

I think a lot of Childress' success was dumb luck in acquiring Favre, who excelled DESPITE Childress rather than because of him.

With Zimmer, I see WAY more competence. Go watch his post game talk with his team on Vikings.com. This team loves him. They play as a team and they are determined to win because of a vision that he has created. It is early, I'll give you that. But I think the difference between Childress and Zimmer is huge and obvious.

[mosscarter]

but what i look at is the transformation over the course of just over two years. look at where the win loss record was, look at where the defense was ranked, and that same defense is carrying over into this year which tells me it isn't a flash in the pan defense. he's built a contender. we need offensive production and if we get it i believe we are an elite team. you know i'm not a fan of bridgewater (trust me i wanted to be). but, i don't think too many coaches could win with that type of offensive production at all over the long term. i agree totally with turner i could call a better game from home and i don't think it i know it. he has weapons that he consistently keeps on the sidelines. i don't care if patterson can run routes or not, get the ball into his hands he is a game changer as an athlete.

[kurtkeoki]

Since Charles Johnson isn't getting the ball anyway, shouldn't we have Treadwell out there instead? Obviously Rudolph and Diggs are playing well, and throwing to them has been a good idea, but at some point we are going to need to get more receivers involved.

[Crax]

He probably does but as I've been saying, it's Zimmer's team. The buck stops with him so whether he's heavily involved with the offense or minimally involved with it, in the end, the offense they put on the field is the offense of Mike Zimmer's Vikings. He's as responsible for the quality of their performance as he is for the performance of the defense and special teams.

I agree with you, I just wonder if it's something like zimmer making a deal when asking norv to be the OC, that norv would get pretty much full control. It's not at all like our current DC, who I wonder how much he really gets to decide.