The Teddy Bridgewater Thread

[losperros]

Yes.

It sure wouldn't hurt.

[mosscarter]

either way the truth is bridgewater isn't that guy. nobody is necessarily saying 30 plus td's, but how about at least 20 plus? teddy isn't even close. as i've stated all long and it is an indisputable fact his numbers are among the worst of any starting qb in the nfl aside from completion percentage. when you only throw 5 yard outs your completion percentage will obviously be higher. that is simply the law of averages. this time next year we will be looking for another quarterback. he has no killer instinct and plays with no emotion whatsoever. and that is aside from the fact that he has a weak arm and poor mechanics. i wish he'd turn the corner, but what evidence is there to suggest he will do so? i know everyone on here thinks i hate him and that isn't true. i just think he is a terrible quarterback.

[IrishViking]

either way the truth is bridgewater isn't that guy. nobody is necessarily saying 30 plus td's, but how about at least 20 plus? teddy isn't even close. as i've stated all long and it is an indisputable fact his numbers are among the worst of any starting qb in the nfl aside from completion percentage. when you only throw 5 yard outs your completion percentage will obviously be higher. that is simply the law of averages. this time next year we will be looking for another quarterback. he has no killer instinct and plays with no emotion whatsoever. and that is aside from the fact that he has a weak arm and poor mechanics. i wish he'd turn the corner, but what evidence is there to suggest he will do so? i know everyone on here thinks i hate him and that isn't true. i just think he is a terrible quarterback.

He needs to average .5 more TDs a game to exceed 20 TD by a wide margin

So not quite sure what you are getting at there.


I guess we just see different things.

[Raptorman]

He needs to average .5 more TDs a game to exceed 20 TD by a wide margin

So not quite sure what you are getting at there.


I guess we just see different things.

It's like this. People want and think that QB's that throw 4500 and 40 TD's a year are what's going to get you to the Super Bowl. But the stats don't back that up. Take a look at 2 QB's that came in the league at the same time. Luck and Wilson. Now many consider Luck to be the "elite" type of QB. Throwing downfield, lots of yards and TD's. Lousy completion percentage. Meanwhile over in Seattle, Wilson, who no one considers to be an "elite" type of QB, he was throwing 3000-3300 yards and 25 TD's. Which is why many don't consider him to be elite. All he did better than Luck was win games in the playoffs and a Super Bowl. But now that he has thrown 4000 yards and 30 TD's there are other reason's why he is not "elite".

And in reality the idea of an "elite" QB is a myth. Just try to get someone to define it for you. Most will say 4000 yards an 30 tds a year. Know when Brady first accomplished that? Year 7. Yup. Brady had 1 year before that were he threw 4000 yards but never had a 30 td year until he got Randy Moss. He did average 3500 yards and 24.5 tds a year for his first 6 years. And that is what I think we should be looking for in Teddy. That would make him what we need in a QB. As long as the Defense maintains it's quality, that is all you need to win. Now, he is close in yards and could use some more TD's. But I think those will come.

[Mothman]

It's like this. People want and think that QB's that throw 4500 and 40 TD's a year are what's going to get you to the Super Bowl.

It's NOT like that, at least not in this discussion, with the people on this board. Mosscarter just wrote above that "nobody is necessarily saying 30 plus td's, but how about at least 20 plus?" so he's not calling for 40 TDs and 4500 yards.

40 TDs and 4500 yards isn't necessary but is it okay to want more than 14 TD passes a year from the starting QB? For crying out loud, Bridgewater threw just 10 over the course of fifteen regular season games this season and it took a huge statistical performance (4 TD passes) against Chicago to even get his total for the season to 14.

Instead of throwing out an extreme like 40 TDs can we all meet in the middle and at least agree that, in this era of football, with the current rules, 14 isn't enough?

Code: Select all

And in reality the idea of an "elite" QB is a myth. Just try to get someone to define it for you.  

It's not a myth. Defining what constitutes an elite QB is subjective and somewhat debatable but there are quite obviously elite QBs. For example, Tom Brady, over the course of his career, has clearly established himself as an elite performer at his position.

Know when Brady first accomplished that? Year 7. Yup. Brady had 1 year before that were he threw 4000 yards but never had a 30 td year until he got Randy Moss. He did average 3500 yards and 24.5 tds a year for his first 6 years. And that is what I think we should be looking for in Teddy. That would make him what we need in a QB. As long as the Defense maintains it's quality, that is all you need to win. Now, he is close in yards and could use some more TD's. But I think those will come.

I think there's good reason to question whether they will come or not. That's 10 more TDs per season than Bridgewater has shown he can throw thus far. A leap in TD production like that is hardly impossible but for those of us who are uncertain about his long term viability as a starter, it runs deeper than TD stats anyway. I think his relatively low production in that area is a direct consequence of shortcomings in his game: accuracy problems, especially with deeper throws, issues with his mechanics, a tendency to play risk-averse football and check down or throw the ball away too easily,his reluctance to throw the ball into tight windows, etc. It's all been discussed here and it's been discussed in the media too.

There are things about Bridgewater's game that are indicative of youth, things that could improve, but we've seen plenty of examples of players who just don't make those improvements. He wasn't much, if any, better this year than last. What makes anybody expect that he will make a big jump in production in the near future?

[losperros]

I've never understood why comparisons are made between Tom Brady and Teddy Bridgewater. They're on completely different teams and have little to any similarity in styles, not to mention that Brady is on a level far above Teddy. And Brady is an elite quarterback by anyone's definition. He's proven it with the following:

4× Super Bowl Champion (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XXXIX, XLIX)
3× Super Bowl MVP (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XLIX)
2× NFL MVP (2007, 2010)
11× Pro Bowl (2001, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
2× First-team All-Pro (2007, 2010)
Second-team All-Pro (2005)
6× AFC Champion (2001, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011, 2014)
4× NFL passing touchdowns leader (2002, 2007, 2010, 2015)
2× NFL passing yards leader (2005, 2007)
New England Patriots all-time leader (passing touchdowns, passing yards, pass completions, pass attempts, career wins, games played)
Most career wins with single team (172)
NFL 2000s All-Decade Team
.
Brady vs Bridgewater? What comparison?

[Mothman]

I've never understood why comparisons are made between Tom Brady and Teddy Bridgewater. They're on completely different teams and have little to any similarity in styles, not to mention that Brady is on a level far above Teddy. And Brady is an elite quarterback by anyone's definition. He's proven it with the following:

4× Super Bowl Champion (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XXXIX, XLIX)
3× Super Bowl MVP (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XLIX)
2× NFL MVP (2007, 2010)
11× Pro Bowl (2001, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
2× First-team All-Pro (2007, 2010)
Second-team All-Pro (2005)
6× AFC Champion (2001, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011, 2014)
4× NFL passing touchdowns leader (2002, 2007, 2010, 2015)
2× NFL passing yards leader (2005, 2007)
New England Patriots all-time leader (passing touchdowns, passing yards, pass completions, pass attempts, career wins, games played)
Most career wins with single team (172)
NFL 2000s All-Decade Team
.
Brady vs Bridgewater? What comparison?

Thanks for posting that list of Brady's accomplishments. Clearly the rare and elusive elite quarterback is not a myth. Cryptozoologists proved that long ago when they discovered arboreal elite QBs living in the trees of the Canadian wilderness. Plaster casts of their footprints have been made in NFL stadiums for years. Those footprints are often found on Mondays, leading experts to believe elite QBs are most active on Sundays.

NFL films claims to have captured film of these elusive creatures but the veracity of those films is hotly debated.

* No offense intended to anybody. I'm just having some fun...

[IrishViking]

I think there's good reason to question whether they will come or not. That's 10 more TDs per season than Bridgewater has shown he can throw thus far. A leap in TD production like that is hardly impossible but for those of us who are uncertain about his long term viability as a starter, it runs deeper than TD stats anyway. I think his relatively low production in that area is a direct consequence of shortcomings in his game: accuracy problems, especially with deeper throws, issues with his mechanics, a tendency to play risk-averse football and check down or throw the ball away too easily,his reluctance to throw the ball into tight windows, etc. It's all been discussed here and it's been discussed in the media too.

There are things about Bridgewater's game that are indicative of youth, things that could improve, but we've seen plenty of examples of players who just don't make those improvements. He wasn't much, if any, better this year than last. What makes anybody expect that he will make a big jump in production in the near future?

My gripe with parts of this is, is that Zimmer is on record as stating REPEATEDLY that he wants Teddy to take what the defense gives him, get into a rhythm and not turn the ball over. So while I get the concerns about accuracy to a certain degree (I think he has shown enough touch on enough throws to be considered "improving") and I get the TD production (which I am firm believer in the camp of those are a TEAM stat and they just eventually "come" for lack of a better phrase) I simply don't get the complaints about being "risk adverse" and such. He is doing what Zimmer tells him to do, and the complete lack of frustration by Zimmer in his play style leads me to believe that he is in fact telling Bridgewater to do those things and not just Screening him for PR purposes.

My expectation is that next year all the games with 0's turn to 1's and he doubles his amount of multiple TD games. If he does that or close to it I see no reason to fault his production. If he doesn't than I absolutely see the point of starting to move on from him.

To flip your point, I don't see enough evidence to support moving on from him and there not being a good chance he would blossom for whoever scoops him up.

He doesn't need to improve his completion percentage. Its right in among the Top QBs in the League. His interception rate is among the leagues elite. His YPA is solidly average, 16th exactly among QBs with more than 100 attempts. Literally the only thing he needs to do is figure out how to hit on the deep passes more consistently and convert more TDs. He does those two things his completion % goes up to being undisputedly elite , His TDs go up to probably low 20s not a world beater but I would hardly call that "hold us back", and his YPA goes up to probably just shy of 8, which would put him shoulder to shoulder with the leagues savviest vets. To me he has started hit them or come close enough that I think he can do it.

Those two issues for him, TDs and Deep balls will be dramatcially easier to judge (hopefully) next year with more consistent and better Oline play. I see no reason to be so down on Teddy. He isn't on fire but he has had a decidedly average to good season by every metric but TDs and Deep passes, both of which are much more team oriented than other stats.

[losperros]

Thanks for posting that list of Brady's accomplishments. Clearly the rare and elusive elite quarterback is not a myth. Cryptozoologists proved that long ago when they discovered arboreal elite QBs living in the trees of the Canadian wilderness. Plaster casts of their footprints have been made in NFL stadiums for years. Those footprints are often found on Mondays, leading experts to believe elite QBs are most active on Sundays.

NFL films claims to have captured film of these elusive creatures but the veracity of those films is hotly debated.

Yeah, I remember seeing some grainy pics of Brady on an episode of MonsterQuest.

Kind of an inside joke here, folks. Jim and I are cryptozoology fans.

[IrishViking]

I've never understood why comparisons are made between Tom Brady and Teddy Bridgewater. They're on completely different teams and have little to any similarity in styles, not to mention that Brady is on a level far above Teddy. And Brady is an elite quarterback by anyone's definition. He's proven it with the following:

4× Super Bowl Champion (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XXXIX, XLIX)
3× Super Bowl MVP (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XLIX)
2× NFL MVP (2007, 2010)
11× Pro Bowl (2001, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
2× First-team All-Pro (2007, 2010)
Second-team All-Pro (2005)
6× AFC Champion (2001, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011, 2014)
4× NFL passing touchdowns leader (2002, 2007, 2010, 2015)
2× NFL passing yards leader (2005, 2007)
New England Patriots all-time leader (passing touchdowns, passing yards, pass completions, pass attempts, career wins, games played)
Most career wins with single team (172)
NFL 2000s All-Decade Team
.
Brady vs Bridgewater? What comparison?

Brady 64.4% Teddy 65.3% Brady 7.6 YPA Teddy 7.2 YPA Brady 7 int Teddy 9 int

Obviously this is tongue and cheek because Brady would be anyone's first choice by a mile. And you can make the claim that Brady threw it more thus making the stats more impressive. But that cuts both ways. Increase Bridgewater's attempts up to Brady's level who's to say he wouldn't have more TDs and more YPA. Take away 150 of Brady's completions and whos to say he wouldn't lose a massive chunk of his Deep bombs and TDs?

Teddy has a long way to go still but there are empirical QB centered numbers that show near identical stats. Identical stats mean similarity at the most base level. Ergo; 2nd year Teddy has a Completion percentage, YPA, and interception total similar to 15th year Tom Brady.

[Mothman]

My gripe with parts of this is, is that Zimmer is on record as stating REPEATEDLY that he wants Teddy to take what the defense gives him, get into a rhythm and not turn the ball over. So while I get the concerns about accuracy to a certain degree (I think he has shown enough touch on enough throws to be considered "improving") and I get the TD production (which I am firm believer in the camp of those are a TEAM stat and they just eventually "come" for lack of a better phrase) I simply don't get the complaints about being "risk adverse" and such. He is doing what Zimmer tells him to do, and the complete lack of frustration by Zimmer in his play style leads me to believe that he is in fact telling Bridgewater to do those things and not just Screening him for PR purposes.

I haven't seen anything like a complete lack of frustration from Zimmer in regard to his QB. He just made it clear after the last game that he had some choice words for Bridgewater about that left-handed INT. He's said he wants his QB to cut it loose. He's repeatedly said, at various times this season, that Bridgewater needs to play better. He's made it clear that his QB sometimes leaves too many plays on the field.

Taking what the defense gives and avoiding turnovers doesn't necessarily mean playing excessively conservative football.

I say Bridgewater is risk averse because in game after game I see him look down receivers and deliver the ball late, only when he feels certain they're really open. i see him check down and throw the ball away when he has open options. I see him hold the ball too long, indecisively waiting until his receivers are already out of their breaks and looking at him rather than throwing the ball in time, in rhythm, and hitting the receivers coming out of their breaks.

There are times when he avoids those pitfalls and when that happens, he can look quite good and be very effective.

I agree TDs are a team stat to some degree but a certain percentage of them need to come from the passing game and this team's offense just doesn't score enough as a whole. Only one kicker in the league attempted more field goals than Blair Walsh this year, an indication that when the Vikes move into scoring position, they don't finish enough drives with TDs. That's a team issue too but Bridgewater's performance is a pretty critical part of moving the offense and finishing drives.

My expectation is that next year all the games with 0's turn to 1's and he doubles his amount of multiple TD games.

What basis do you have for that expectation other than hope and optimism? I'm not being sarcastic. I just don't see any other basis for it so I'm curious.

If he does that or close to it I see no reason to fault his production. If he doesn't than I absolutely see the point of starting to move on from him.

Fair enough but is there some reason we should wait until the end of next year to fault his production?

To flip your point, I don't see enough evidence to support moving on from him and there not being a good chance he would blossom for whoever scoops him up

I haven't called for them to move on from him. I've been saying he needs to produce. I've also said they should put a strong "Plan B" in place but I'd feel that way even if Bridgewater already had 35 TDs and 4500 passing yards this season. I just think it's a smart approach to managing the QB position.

He doesn't need to improve his completion percentage. Its right in among the Top QBs in the League. His interception rate is among the leagues elite. His YPA is solidly average, 16th exactly among QBs with more than 100 attempts. Literally the only thing he needs to do is figure out how to hit on the deep passes more consistently and convert more TDs. He does those two things his completion % goes up to being undisputedly elite , His TDs go up to probably low 20s not a world beater but I would hardly call that "hold us back", and his YPA goes up to probably just shy of 8, which would put him shoulder to shoulder with the leagues savviest vets. To me he has started hit them or come close enough that I think he can do it.

Those two issues for him, TDs and Deep balls will be dramatcially easier to judge (hopefully) next year with more consistent and better Oline play.

We have more than enough examples of deep passes thrown when he wasn't under duress to assess his ability in that area now. I think he has much more to improve on than just deep passes and TDs. and those other areas, admittedly more subtle and sometimes hard to see at all on broadcasts, are important. Those are the plays that extend drives, that lead to more first downs, which lead to more opportunities, more production and more TDs. The stats are solid in some areas but the stats only reflect plays made, not opportunities missed and there are too many of the latter. A good completion percentage doesn't win games and even Bridgewater's strengths in areas like completion percentage and INT % (where's he solid but not really elite) are arguably a consequence of his conservative play and his good fortune in playing on a team with a strong defense.

I see no reason to be so down on Teddy. He isn't on fire but he has had a decidedly average to good season by every metric but TDs and Deep passes, both of which are much more team oriented than other stats.

They're also extremely important since an offense that struggles to threaten the whole field is easier to defend. the significance of scoring is obvious.

Stats don't tell the whole story but taken as a whole (which is how they;re most useful) even they don't tell the tale of a QB that had a decidedly average to good season.

[Mothman]

Obviously this is tongue and cheek because Brady would be anyone's first choice by a mile. And you can make the claim that Brady threw it more thus making the stats more impressive. But that cuts both ways. Increase Bridgewater's attempts up to Brady's level who's to say he wouldn't have more TDs and more YPA. Take away 150 of Brady's completions and whos to say he wouldn't lose a massive chunk of his Deep bombs and TDs?

Teddy has a long way to go still but there are empirical QB centered numbers that show near identical stats. Identical stats mean similarity at the most base level. Ergo; 2nd year Teddy has a Completion percentage, YPA, and interception total similar to 15th year Tom Brady.

... and yet anyone who watches and understands football can see that in terms of quality QB play, they're separated by a wide gap. That speaks to the limited usefulness of comparing those three statistical categeories without greater context.

[IrishViking]

... and yet anyone who watches and understands football can see that in terms of quality QB play, they're separated by a wide gap. That speaks to the limited usefulness of comparing those three statistical categeories without greater context.

And I also think its telling that Teddy matched a 15 year QB and an arguable GOAT in three key Categories his second year. How is that NOT a good thing? How does that get brushed away? Its just such an utter disconnect to downplay those numbers and shine a bright light on the specifics that aren't liked.

[fiestavike]

... and yet anyone who watches and understands football can see that in terms of quality QB play, they're separated by a wide gap. That speaks to the limited usefulness of comparing those three statistical categeories without greater context.

And still fans go up and down like a yo-yo based primarily on stats, not performance, which most of them frankly have not even the foggiest ability to grasp.

[IrishViking]

I haven't seen anything like a complete lack of frustration from Zimmer in regard to his QB. He just made it clear after the last game that he had some choice words for Bridgewater about that left-handed INT. He's said he wants his QB to cut it loose. He's repeatedly said, at various times this season, that Bridgewater needs to play better. He's made it clear that his QB sometimes leaves too many plays on the field.

Taking what the defense gives and avoiding turnovers doesn't necessarily mean playing excessively conservative football.

I say Bridgewater is risk averse because in game after game I see him look down receivers and deliver the ball late, only when he feels certain they're really open. i see him check down and throw the ball away when he has open options. I see him hold the ball too long, indecisively waiting until his receivers are already out of their breaks and looking at him rather than throwing the ball in time, in rhythm, and hitting the receivers coming out of their breaks.

Most Of what I am saying there is based completely off of Zimmer's most recent comments regarding his expectations of Bridgewater versus Seattle. Apart from the chew out for the interception (which was the stupidest play I have ever witnessed live) I have not seen an angry Zimmer. Just a Zimmer that wishes we would start hitting some of the deep balls. He said in an interview a few days ago (I'll track it down if you havent heard/read it) that there are a few plays Teddy is missing but there are also many plays where the deep ball is open by Teddy is already on the ground or running for his life because of pressure.

There are times when he avoids those pitfalls and when that happens, he can look quite good and be very effective.

I agree TDs are a team stat to some degree but a certain percentage of them need to come from the passing game and this team's offense just doesn't score enough as a whole. Only one kicker in the league attempted more field goals than Blair Walsh this year, an indication that when the Vikes move into scoring position, they don't finish enough drives with TDs. That's a team issue too but Bridgewater's performance is a pretty critical part of moving the offense and finishing drives.

I don't disagree. My point is the Rudolph drop hurt, the Diggs(Mckinnion) fumble hurt. The constantly blown blocking assignments on Oline hurt, the (much much rarer!! ) Peterson Block wiffs hurt. I think remember a half dozen or so times this year where AVERAGE play from the rest of our offensive unit and/or a skill player not committing an egregious error would have lead directly to passing TDs or more scoring opportunities.

What basis do you have for that expectation other than hope and optimism? I'm not being sarcastic. I just don't see any other basis for it so I'm curious.

I look at the trend of the last few games (before Green Bay) and saw a QB settling in a bit more. He was producing more 1TDs games than 0TD games and a handful of the TDs he threw were gorgeous basket drops, look offs, etc that give me some confidence that he is learning from his mistakes. Everyone has clunkers. If he produces moderately well this Sunday I'll be quite happy regardless of the outcome and pretty confident in him next year.

Fair enough but is there some reason we should wait until the end of next year to fault his production?

Personal choice I guess. I see signs of improvement so until that improvement shows a pattern of regressing or halting (which I don't think the GB game proves) I am happy to stick with him until that happens. For instance if next year his regular season stats 1% more accurate, .5 YPA more, 5 more TDs and he connects on a total of 10 more 20+ yarders I'll be happy with that and then expect him to continue to build on it the next year.

I haven't called for them to move on from him. I've been saying he needs to produce. I've also said they should put a strong "Plan B" in place but I'd feel that way even if Bridgewater already had 35 TDs and 4500 passing yards this season. I just think it's a smart approach to managing the QB position.

Fair enough, I guess I am struggling to understand what you want. If you don't want us to give up on him yet but are frustrated, join the club, I have jackets. I agree a backup you can depend on is very important, especially a young one that could potentially be groomed into a starter.

We have more than enough examples of deep passes thrown when he wasn't under duress to assess his ability in that area now. I think he has much more to improve on than just deep passes and TDs. and those other areas, admittedly more subtle and sometimes hard to see at all on broadcasts, are important. Those are the plays that extend drives, that lead to more first downs, which lead to more opportunities, more production and more TDs. The stats are solid in some areas but the stats only reflect plays made, not opportunities missed and there are too many of the latter. A good completion percentage doesn't win games and even Bridgewater's strengths in areas like completion percentage and INT % (where's he solid but not really elite) are arguably a consequence of his conservative play and his good fortune in playing on a team with a strong defense.

But that last part is the issue. I don't think its the good fortune on being on a team with a strong defense. Its him playing for a defensive coach who has built a strong defense and wants to win low scoring games 20-14 or such. We agree, Zimmer agrees, Norv agrees, Teddy agrees, he needs to hit on those deep openings. But that is a completely separate issue than the conservative play IMO. When they take a shot Teddy needs to hit it, but otherwise Teddy needs to not turn it over and stay ahead of the chains.

They're also extremely important since an offense that struggles to threaten the whole field is easier to defend. the significance of scoring is obvious.

I agree I think what it just boils down to is that I think he right on the cusp.

A big thing that boost my confidence is earlier in the year when he threw that int in the endzone because he didn't look the safety off properly. then, like 4 weeks later, he executes it PERFECTLY and scores us 6 points. He can adjust and he can learn. He just strikes me as;
Being. This. Freakin. Close.