My thoughts on the offense as a whole

[dead_poet]

Wow... what the heck is going on?

Formations? More heavy/multiple TE sets? Wright is probably a better slot guy than CJ if only in three-wides. Stubbornly sticking with Wallace opposite Diggs is annoying. At least scale back snaps to see if it nets a better result with CJ or Patterson.

[HardcoreVikesFan]

Formations? More heavy/multiple TE sets? Wright is probably a better slot guy than CJ if only in three-wides. Stubbornly sticking with Wallace opposite Diggs is annoying. At least scale back snaps to see if it nets a better result with CJ or Patterson.

It is time for a change. This is beyond ridiculous that it is week 15 and Patterson and Johnson remain on the bench. Can we at least have Scott Turner take over at the end of the year? Scott has to have SOME idea how to utilize everyone correct. I think Norv is just too set in his old ways.

[mansquatch]

Protection may be a culprit in that they are only sending 3 or 4 out on routes, keeping an extra TE in to protect, but that still begs the question of why isn't one of the more potentially physical guys one of the three or four?

My guess is there is more than we know going on here, but that doesn't mean the theorizing above is completely wrong.

[Texas Vike]

I hope the Vikings dont go afteer another big FA WR who is known mainly for speed. People see Beckman play and think speed is the answer, that guy is also extremely talented. And Eli has a lot more time to throw it to him. CP and Wright are pretty darm fast too (if the Vikes keep CP, I have a feeling they wont keep him just for KR). We have a fast group at WR. What we need is a good route running WR, doesnt have to be blazing fast, just run a good route, and be shifty.

I agree. In addition to route running, I want someone with ball skills. Someone who can go up and win 50-50 balls, who can adjust to deep balls on the fly, who is tall and can jump like a grasshopper and highpoint the ball consistently... that's what we need.

[dead_poet]

I agree. In addition to route running, I want someone with ball skills. Someone who can go up and win 50-50 balls, who can adjust to deep balls on the fly, who is tall and can jump like a grasshopper and highpoint the ball consistently... that's what we need.

I wonder if there's a guy in the draft that fits that profile...

[autobon7]

Hell there is a guy on our bench that matches that profile.

[mondry]

I'm not really sold on the idea that Wallace is the issue. I get that he hasn't been perfect, but it just feels like the current starting line up is not able to make use of what Wallace does best. If anything, his numbers are probably a bigger black mark on Norv Turner than they are on him. Given the woes we are having with our OL, why put a guy out there who excels in the deep passing game? Or why not ask him to do more from the line of scrimmage? If the guy can't do it, then why put him out there? This is even a bigger conundrum when you look at #84 sitting on the bench.

Maybe there are things we do not know about going on at practice, in the locker room, etc. but from our current vantage point there are some inconsistencies that beg certain questions.

Since this thread is about the offense, here is an observation from the AZ game. AZ as a defense does not have a dominant pass rusher. So they create pressure via the blitz. TB did very well against them. Our OL, while still no where near even average, did better in this scenario than they have done against teams that have talent up front. Obviously they need to improve in this regard. However, it makes me wonder, will we see teams next year drop 7 into coverage and let Teddy have time (assuming the blocking gets better?) Can he beat that coverage? Or will they resort to the blitz? I think in the latter scenario we can have some comfort that Teddy can perform. Another way to look at that is that ultra fast pressure plus 6-7 guys in coverage is very hard to throw against, at least for TB. Maybe making it harder for defenses to play that way will improve our passing game?

The above is just me thinking out loud. Curious how other read into it?

I think you're spot on with the Mike Wallace stuff for the most part. It's tough because realistically he's a VERY good fit for Norvs offense but he's a bad fit for Teddy's skill set. Wallace is doing well in his role, Teddy just hasn't been able to connect on the deep ball which is where Wallace earns his $. When I say Wallace hasn't been worth it I'm not saying it's wallace' fault, but I do wonder if CP84 or CJ couldn't provide a better option. Both guys can still get deep like Wallace, especially CJ. But maybe they offer a bigger boost in other aspects of the offense.

It's tough to say because we also have to think of the impact Wallace has on a defense. Even though the balls aren't being completed, the coverages we're seeing still suggests Wallace is getting more attention then he probably should be and that impacts the rest of the offense. One of the reason Diggs exploded on the scene for example is because teams were still more afraid of Wallace than him. Of course they have since adjusted but it is something to think about. Rudolph is seeing a surprisingly low amount of attention as another example when Diggs and Wallace are both on the field.

If we take Wallace off, what's to stop them from throwing the deep safety they use over the top on Wallace to lock down on Rudolph? Playing devils advocate, it could be in our best interest to keep Wallace on the field still as long as defenses are paying as much attention as they seem to be to him.

[Mothman]

I think you're spot on with the Mike Wallace stuff for the most part. It's tough because realistically he's a VERY good fit for Norvs offense but he's a bad fit for Teddy's skill set. Wallace is doing well in his role, Teddy just hasn't been able to connect on the deep ball which is where Wallace earns his $. When I say Wallace hasn't been worth it I'm not saying it's wallace' fault, but I do wonder if CP84 or CJ couldn't provide a better option. Both guys can still get deep like Wallace, especially CJ. But maybe they offer a bigger boost in other aspects of the offense.

It's tough to say because we also have to think of the impact Wallace has on a defense. Even though the balls aren't being completed, the coverages we're seeing still suggests Wallace is getting more attention then he probably should be and that impacts the rest of the offense. One of the reason Diggs exploded on the scene for example is because teams were still more afraid of Wallace than him. Of course they have since adjusted but it is something to think about. Rudolph is seeing a surprisingly low amount of attention as another example when Diggs and Wallace are both on the field.

If we take Wallace off, what's to stop them from throwing the deep safety they use over the top on Wallace to lock down on Rudolph? Playing devils advocate, it could be in our best interest to keep Wallace on the field still as long as defenses are paying as much attention as they seem to be to him.

It's a good point. They definitely still respect his speed.

[losperros]

It is time for a change. This is beyond ridiculous that it is week 15 and Patterson and Johnson remain on the bench. Can we at least have Scott Turner take over at the end of the year? Scott has to have SOME idea how to utilize everyone correct. I think Norv is just too set in his old ways.

I absolutely agree. Norv is a bull-headed offensive coordinator that has done more harm than good to the offense. Not playing Johnson and Patterson is grating away at my nerves.

Look, folks, check out the Bridgewater to Johnson passes from last year on Youtube. Johnson was getting deep when needed and Teddy WAS connecting with him on all kinds of passes. They had developed some real chemistry. As for Patterson, he was banged up last season. But come on, he was able to make catches and big gains for Cassel, including downfield passes. Check Youtube for that too.

Seriously, Teddy suddenly can't hook up with Johnson? And he hasn't even had the chance to work with Patterson. How is that helping the passing attack?

[J. Kapp 11]

Charles Johnson's last target was in week 9.

That's just ... mind boggling.

He makes what is arguably the most important catch of the season, and then rides the bench ever since.

Norv's gonna need a 40,000 square foot addition on that dog house. Seems to be getting crowded in there.

[The Breeze]

To Mondry's point about TB making throws against AZ that he avoided in other games:
I think he got completely embasrrased against Seattle. When opponents are commenting about how scared he played, hopefully his pride kicks in and he elevates his game.
It's why I've been hoping he would get a chunk of tape to look at that showed how badly they need him to step up against these better teams.
I think he did against AZ...he played with more conviction.
Hopefully it rolls over and we see more of it.
-
There is definite need for that go to guy

[J. Kapp 11]

I agree. In addition to route running, I want someone with ball skills. Someone who can go up and win 50-50 balls, who can adjust to deep balls on the fly, who is tall and can jump like a grasshopper and highpoint the ball consistently... that's what we need.

That's the key, those 50-50 balls. Players who can handle the back-shoulder throw. Guys who simply "want it more." I love those guys. Good teams always seem to have them, like Michael Irvin used to do, and like Sidney Rice did for us in '09. Odell Beckham Jr. is a great example in today's game, as are Larry Fitzgerald and Steve Smith (before his injury). That freaking Smith -- maybe 5-10, and just jumps over everybody.

We already saw Charles Johnson's ability to win 50-50 balls in a critical situation against the Bears -- yet he sits. As does CP, who certainly has the size and the desire. Meanwhile, Adam Thielen is running around out there during the final drive against AZ. Just ... wow.

[dead_poet]

Fading from the offense, Charles Johnson back to biding his time

“I’m sure he is probably frustrated that he’s not [playing],” coach Mike Zimmer said. “But you know, sometimes that’s the way it goes. You’d have to talk to him about that. But he continues to work hard, he continues to do a good job in practice. Just like everybody, when his opportunity comes, I’m sure he’ll do good.”

http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2015/ ... s-johnson/

[Texas Vike]

I agree. In addition to route running, I want someone with ball skills. Someone who can go up and win 50-50 balls, who can adjust to deep balls on the fly, who is tall and can jump like a grasshopper and highpoint the ball consistently... that's what we need.

That's the key, those 50-50 balls. Players who can handle the back-shoulder throw. Guys who simply "want it more." I love those guys. Good teams always seem to have them, like Michael Irvin used to do, and like Sidney Rice did for us in '09. Odell Beckham Jr. is a great example in today's game, as are Larry Fitzgerald and Steve Smith (before his injury). That freaking Smith -- maybe 5-10, and just jumps over everybody.

We already saw Charles Johnson's ability to win 50-50 balls in a critical situation against the Bears -- yet he sits. As does CP, who certainly has the size and the desire. Meanwhile, Adam Thielen is running around out there during the final drive against AZ. Just ... wow.[/quote]


Yeah, that kind of WR opens things up for a QB. Teddy seems to only throw when a guy is REALLY open. Favre would chuck it to Rice whenever his gunslinging instinct overtook him and Sidney almost always came down with it. Dead Poet, of course, correctly perceived the player I had in mind: I'm high on Josh Doctson, WR from TCU, because he is exactly that kind of player. We don't have anyone on our squad that even comes close to his abilities as a pass catcher, particularly of 50-50 and long balls. My fear, though, is that Teddy wouldn't have the cojones to throw risky balls up to this type of receiver anyways, so it may just be a waste of talent.

[dead_poet]

Yeah, that kind of WR opens things up for a QB. Teddy seems to only throw when a guy is REALLY open. Favre would chuck it to Rice whenever his gunslinging instinct overtook him and Sidney almost always came down with it. Dead Poet, of course, correctly perceived the player I had in mind: I'm high on Josh Doctson, WR from TCU, because he is exactly that kind of player. We don't have anyone on our squad that even comes close to his abilities as a pass catcher, particularly of 50-50 and long balls. My fear, though, is that Teddy wouldn't have the cojones to throw risky balls up to this type of receiver anyways, so it may just be a waste of talent.

Exhibit A