Bridge to nowhere

[The Breeze]

I think Spielman has put a lot of picks into the line...but for whatever reason (talent, coaching/scheme injuries) it has yet to pan out into a consistent positive product.

It's a headscratcher, IMO

[Mothman]

I think Spielman has put a lot of picks into the line...but for whatever reason (talent, coaching/scheme injuries) it has yet to pan out into a consistent positive product.

It's a headscratcher, IMO

Most of those picks have been mid-to-late rounders. If I remember correctly Loadholt and Kalil are the only linemen on the roster drafted higher than R4 (and I think most of the others were drafted later than R4, if they were drafted at all).

[mansquatch]

This thread plays nicely into my question in the other thread. How much better are the Vikings on offense if Sullivan and Loadholt are healthy?

That really is THE question going into this offseason for the Vikings since it drives where/how they invest if they go that route in the offseason. TB is not producing right now, but does anyone think they are going to jettison a QB after just 2 seasons? If they (Vikings FO) do not think TB will be better with those two on the field, then they should draft a QB in the upcoming draft. I find that position silly, but if that is the view then this is the answer.

I think they are going to look to add a tackle mid to late and a more athletic interior lineman early. FA may play a role here as well.

IMO, the OL story this year is that the Vikings have done an adequate job of finding starters, but have done a very poor job of finding quality back ups, especially at Tackle.

[dead_poet]

Most of those picks have been mid-to-late rounders. If I remember correctly Loadholt and Kalil are the only linemen on the roster drafted higher than R4 (and I think most of the others were drafted later than R4, if they were drafted at all).

I still don't care about where a guy was drafted if he can be an asset. In a different light, Rick could be commended for finding average to above-average starters in the latter parts of the draft and the coaching staff for developing them to that level. Birk, Fusco, Sullivan...they've all proven this. Clearly Fusco isn't proving that on the left side. That's not to say additional resources couldn't have been devoted to the offensive line the last five years.

[mondry]

I think Spielman has put a lot of picks into the line...but for whatever reason (talent, coaching/scheme injuries) it has yet to pan out into a consistent positive product.

It's a headscratcher, IMO

I wouldn't say he put a lot of picks into, like Dallas Cowboys a lot, but obviously the big problem this year is that 2 of those picks, Sullivan and Loadholt, which happen to be 2 of your better lineman going out for the year hurts.

If those guys are healthy with as good as Kalil has played this season (hey compared to his last season this IS better) that's 3 out of 5 starters. Fusco was solid at RG for a couple years as well, I don't know how much moving someone to LG matters but I'm guessing it does since he's been dreadful this year. If you could move him back to RG next year that might be 4 out of 5 spots that -could- be way better than what it is right now.

If I remember right from one of the dailynorseman articles we're one of the last teams NOT utilizing a zone blocking scheme. I still don't really understand that, but I'm not an o-line specialist so maybe there is a reason for it. It seems like there really isn't much down side to the zone blocking scheme but tons of positives for it.

All in all I think this line needs 1 elite starter quality prospect added to it, probably at LG and then it needs a BUNCH of depth for when those starters inevitably get hurt. There are a couple ways to do that. The one that makes the most sense is probably trying to replace a guy like fusco all together, by getting a better starter there, then fusco becomes the depth guy that can play LG or RG in case of injury.

[Mothman]

I still don't care about where a guy was drafted if he can be an asset.

I don't either. My point was that a lot of those picks were mid-to-late rounders and picks made in those rounds tend to pay good dividends less frequently than higher picks. I left that implied but that was the point.

[mansquatch]

Those later picks also tend to be less athletically talented and therefore are more role players than difference makers. Not always the case, but I think in our interior OL we are seeing that be a factor to some extent, especially when trying to pick up stunts.

[dead_poet]

Those later picks also tend to be less athletically talented and therefore are more role players than difference makers. Not always the case, but I think in our interior OL we are seeing that be a factor to some extent, especially when trying to pick up stunts.

I'd disagree with that regarding Sullivan. And I don't know how much of picking up stunts is lack of athleticism over smarts/play-recognition. On many of those they're late to recognize what's happening and by that time it's too late. Give a guy a few free steps and it doesn't matter how athletic you are. And I think it drives Zimmer crazy because he's said it's not like they don't practice this or watch film of these things.

[The Breeze]

Most of those picks have been mid-to-late rounders. If I remember correctly Loadholt and Kalil are the only linemen on the roster drafted higher than R4 (and I think most of the others were drafted later than R4, if they were drafted at all).

I intended to include in my thoughts that maybe Spielman, and whoever helps him, just lack a real feel for what would make a quality lineman too.
There seems, to me, to be a disconnect there...because it's definitely true that the majority of picks have been mid to later rounders, while the line has been a glaring problem for a long time.

Nonchalance? Overconfidence in spotting and developing the talent? Just plain whiffs? There is a whole host of kids that have been drafted the past 3 years who never saw a snap. Yankey is the latest example in my mind.

Losing Phil and Sully has been huge, obviously.

The whole offense is pretty darn iffy going forward and it's really difficult, if not futile, to try and pin the problem or the solution on one specific area.

I keep seeing posts about how once Sully and Phil are back we will know more clearly what the issue is. Maybe. I think Sully being out is the biggest thing along the line. Center is so important and I would hope they draft his replacement this year regardless of how fully he recovers.
There's lots of talent on the O...but my fear is that the key pieces are not jiving at all QB, RB and OC.
It's tempting to advocate replacing them all for different reasons.

[The Breeze]

I wouldn't say he put a lot of picks into, like Dallas Cowboys a lot, but obviously the big problem this year is that 2 of those picks, Sullivan and Loadholt, which happen to be 2 of your better lineman going out for the year hurts.

If those guys are healthy with as good as Kalil has played this season (hey compared to his last season this IS better) that's 3 out of 5 starters. Fusco was solid at RG for a couple years as well, I don't know how much moving someone to LG matters but I'm guessing it does since he's been dreadful this year. If you could move him back to RG next year that might be 4 out of 5 spots that -could- be way better than what it is right now.

If I remember right from one of the dailynorseman articles we're one of the last teams NOT utilizing a zone blocking scheme. I still don't really understand that, but I'm not an o-line specialist so maybe there is a reason for it. It seems like there really isn't much down side to the zone blocking scheme but tons of positives for it.

All in all I think this line needs 1 elite starter quality prospect added to it, probably at LG and then it needs a BUNCH of depth for when those starters inevitably get hurt. There are a couple ways to do that. The one that makes the most sense is probably trying to replace a guy like fusco all together, by getting a better starter there, then fusco becomes the depth guy that can play LG or RG in case of injury.

I agree with your points....my comment on the # of picks was less about the bulk amount but in contrast to how many have actually stuck on the team and contributed in a meaningful way.
I'm confused about the scheme also..since Davidson has a history of putting together solid zone blocking units.

For me it keeps coming back to having doubts about how they evaluate and use talent..."CJ is the best guy" but no snaps. CP is a proven playmaker ...no snaps. Diggs doesn't even suit up for 5 weeks yet he looks to be the most polished of the bunch. Fusco gets moved and now he struggles, seemingly no quality depth on the line....etc.

It's a mess

[chicagopurple]

the reality is that Sullys injuries are highly unllikely to clear. He may come back but he will never be as healthy as he was before. He will be a lesser player. Loadholt has a better prognosis but even in his case, there is no gaurantee by any means. I am really worried that the Vikes are just going to assume that Sully will be back and our anchor. Its just not likely at all. Once you blow discs in the low back they are NEVER right again. AND his position is one that puts constant incredible strain on exactly that area so the risk of reinjury is astronomical. We need a quality guy to take his place and Fusco. Honestly, Kalil ( aha I spelled him right) is well past my sell-by date. Clemmngs, well he is a rookie and deserves another full season. We are supposed to be trying to win it all and we only have AP for so many years.....mid-low round draft choice are just gambles and projects for the OL. Its too late for that.....we need quality guys now.

[dead_poet]

the reality is that Sullys injuries are highly unllikely to clear. He may come back but he will never be as healthy as he was before. He will be a lesser player. Loadholt has a better prognosis but even in his case, there is no gaurantee by any means. I am really worried that the Vikes are just going to assume that Sully will be back and our anchor. Its just not likely at all. Once you blow discs in the low back they are NEVER right again. AND his position is one that puts constant incredible strain on exactly that area so the risk of reinjury is astronomical. We need a quality guy to take his place and Fusco. Honestly, Kalil ( aha I spelled him right) is well past my sell-by date. Clemmngs, well he is a rookie and deserves another full season. We are supposed to be trying to win it all and we only have AP for so many years.....mid-low round draft choice are just gambles and projects for the OL. Its too late for that.....we need quality guys now.

Let me get this straight; you're advocating for replacing Sullivan, Kalil, Fusco and maybe Loadholt while keeping Clemmings as a starter and honestly believe that whatever unknown guys we bring in (assuming mostly rookies) will yield a better offensive line in 2016?

[DK Sweets]

Let me get this straight; you're advocating for replacing Sullivan, Kalil, Fusco and maybe Loadholt while keeping Clemmings as a starter and honestly believe that whatever unknown guys we bring in (assuming mostly rookies) will yield a better offensive line in 2016?

[MichViking]

We ABSOLUTELY need a back up plan at QB. Im going to liken it to the RG3 situation in Washington....We need to draft a QB in the 3rd-5th round this year that has an arm. That way if Teddy doesnt develop next year we have someone that can at least throw the ball deep. RG3 (first rounder) supplanted by Cousins (4th rounder) and is at least playing decent football. Right now Id say Teddy is way below average. 8 tds. REALLLYYY??!? Seriously troubling. Got to feel bad for AP. We are 32nd in passing, probably by alot.


ALSO, its unlikely teddy throws any TD's against cardinals D. If anything his stat line will probably look like 8 tds and 10 ints on the year after 13 games!! I think ponder had better numbers.

[Pondering Her Percy]

the reality is that Sullys injuries are highly unllikely to clear. He may come back but he will never be as healthy as he was before. He will be a lesser player. Loadholt has a better prognosis but even in his case, there is no gaurantee by any means. I am really worried that the Vikes are just going to assume that Sully will be back and our anchor. Its just not likely at all. Once you blow discs in the low back they are NEVER right again. AND his position is one that puts constant incredible strain on exactly that area so the risk of reinjury is astronomical. We need a quality guy to take his place and Fusco. Honestly, Kalil ( aha I spelled him right) is well past my sell-by date. Clemmngs, well he is a rookie and deserves another full season. We are supposed to be trying to win it all and we only have AP for so many years.....mid-low round draft choice are just gambles and projects for the OL. Its too late for that.....we need quality guys now.

uhhhhh Werent you the one that said Clemmings was already better than Loadholt in the preseason because he "blew up" Gerald McCoy on one play??

I have no clue why you are so down on Kalil given how he has played this year. Back injuries aren't good but Sully has been one of the better centers in the NFL. Mike Harris has actually been one of our better lineman this year IMO. Fusco has been bad but I'm also wondering if it has anything to do with him moving from RG to LG. Clemmings is HANDS DOWN the worst of any of them.

Kalil is a must keep. Sully is a must keep. Loadholt is still a must keep and could play better than Clemmings right now on a torn Achilles. Fusco should move back to LG IMO. Use Harris as a swing guy that can play multiple spots. Draft/Sign a good guard and tackle for depth/starting purposes.

To get rid of all those guys and keep Clemmings just has zero logic behind it. I think we should obviously keep him since he is young but simply for depth purposes. If he is starting next year I will be doing this.......