Thoughts about the debacle

[losperros]

All this banter about the OL, blocking, WRs, refs, is par for the course with the Vikings, but I'd bet it's similar for most other teams. But when there is something this obvious staring everyone in the face, it's time to call it out. Maybe Bridgewater is throwing short all the time because he lacks the confidence to throw deep. Or maybe the coaching staff lacks the confidence in his ability to throw deep. Whatever it is, a QB who can't hit wide open deep receivers is not long for the NFL no matter how badly Vikings fans want Bridgewater to be the answer.

If I'm Spielman I go and have a real heart-to-heart with Zimmer and Turner about this issue. What in their view is causing the issue? Can it be fixed? If I don't like the answers to those questions I'm looking to the draft for a QB again. And we as fans might just have to face the very distinct possibility that Bridgewater's ceiling is an NFL backup.

I agree. Spielman should have a heart-to-heart with Zimmer and Turner about Bridgewater's weaknesses. Bridgewater seems to have regressed since last December. What can be fixed with coaching and practice? Or can it? And what can Bridgewater do to show more consistency and move the ball better? Perhaps a more WCO style, not unlike the one Bridgewater executed very well for the Louisville Cardinals, that involves shorter and more direct passing routes instead of longer-developing ones.

That said, while Spielman is at it, he should ask them about a porous OL that is obviously not anywhere near doing its job properly with pass protection. They're a NFL offensive line, for crying out loud, and they play as if they've never blocked before. The proof of that is in the film, so it can't be debated. And no, not every NFL team has an offensive line that can't or won't do its job.

Here's another thing that Spielman or maybe Zimmer should ask Turner: Why is Wallace running deep routes when he can't make the catch and Bridgewater can't make the throw? If "execution" really is the source of the problem, then also ask Turner why he isn't passing to Johnson, Wright, or Patterson on some deep routes? In fact, why isn't he including those guys more often at all? And then remind Turner that Diggs is the one who has chemistry with Bridgewater thus far and can probably run any route anywhere on the field.

[Mothman]

And in other news the bengals got jobbed last night. Good showing refs

Let's discuss and other aspects of officiating in a thread dedicated to the topic:

The Official Officiating Thread

[Purple Reign]

Our offensive plan, as most weeks, was to rely on Peterson and it just didn't work out in this game. I was amazed at how ineffective he was. On top of that, the fumble was really a back breaker. The offensive line had problems, yes, but play calling was also a major factor in the run game failing. The Packers had Norv’s number. The run call on the 2 point conversion was so terrible I couldn’t believe it.

What 2 point conversion? Did you watch a different game than I did?

[Mothman]

I agree. Spielman should have a heart-to-heart with Zimmer and Turner about Bridgewater's weaknesses. Bridgewater seems to have regressed since last December. What can be fixed with coaching and practice? Or can it? And what can Bridgewater do to show more consistency and move the ball better? Perhaps a more WCO style, not unlike the one Bridgewater executed very well for the Louisville Cardinals, that involves shorter and more direct passing routes instead of longer-developing ones.

That said, while Spielman is at it, he should ask them about a porous OL that is obviously not anywhere near doing its job properly with pass protection. They're a NFL offensive line, for crying out loud, and they play as if they've never blocked before. The proof of that is in the film, so it can't be debated. And no, not every NFL team has an offensive line that can't or won't do its job.

Here's another thing that Spielman or maybe Zimmer should ask Turner: Why is Wallace running deep routes when he can't make the catch and Bridgewater can't make the throw? If "execution" really is the source of the problem, then also ask Turner why he isn't passing to Johnson, Wright, or Patterson on some deep routes? In fact, why isn't he including those guys more often at all? And then remind Turner that Diggs is the one who has chemistry with Bridgewater thus far and can probably run any route anywhere on the field.

While all of that's going on, it might be a good idea to remind them that Peterson should carry the ball more than 13 times. You would think after giving him 10 carries in a loss at SF and 16 (IIRC) in a loss at Denver, that a reminder wouldn't be necessary. Nevertheless...

[mondry]

While all of that's going on, it might be a good idea to remind them that Peterson should carry the ball more than 13 times. You would think after giving him 10 carries in a loss at SF and 16 (IIRC) in a loss at Denver, that a reminder wouldn't be necessary. Nevertheless...

The whole "they lose when peterson gets x carries" stat is nice but overall not something that is at all meaningful. Yes they lose when he can't get rolling but it's much deeper than simply "well if they gave him 30 carries everything would be fine!"

Of course they KNOW they need to get AD as many opportunities as possible but certain conditions limit that and a lot of them have to do with losing. When Kalil takes holding penalty you have to pass more to make up the yardage. When you're losing by 2 TD's in the 4th quarter you have to pass more, every coach in the league does that. When you take a sack on 2nd down you have to pass again on third down. How about when said running back GETS THE BALL and then turns it over by fumbling? Pretty sure the coaches would have loved for him to hold onto the ball, pick up the first down, and then get a couple more carries but it doesn't always work that way.

Sure they could give him carries on first and second down out of principle just to pump up AD's carries but we've seen the run run pass punt in action before and it wasn't very successful either.

Those losses have much more to do with the Vikings getting their butts kicked and forced into penalties, negative yardage plays, and all that dictating our options more so than the coaches just forgetting they have Peterson.

[Mothman]

The whole "they lose when peterson gets x carries" stat is nice but overall not something that is at all meaningful. Yes they lose when he can't get rolling but it's much deeper than simply "well if they gave him 30 carries everything would be fine!"

I didn't suggest otherwise.

Of course they KNOW they need to get AD as many opportunities as possible but certain conditions limit that and a lot of them have to do with losing. When Kalil takes holding penalty you have to pass more to make up the yardage.

No, they don't have to pass to make up the yardage. Peterson is the biggest big play maker on the team. He can bust a run for 8, 15, even 20+ yards at any time.

When you're losing by 2 TD's in the 4th quarter you have to pass more, every coach in the league does that.

Lack of commitment to the run helped land them in that situation.

Sure they could give him carries on first and second down out of principle just to pump up AD's carries but we've seen the run run pass punt in action before and it wasn't very successful either.

It's not a question of just "pumping" his carries for the sake of it. He's quite clearly the key to their offensive success. Run him more and it takes pressure off Bridgewater, pressure off the passing game. It opens up play action and consumes time (giving the defense time to rest and keeping Rodgers off the field). Back off the run too much and the defense has a green light to attack the porous OL and young QB. It's not a coincidence that Bridgewater has been sacked 18 times in their 3 losses, the 3 games where Peterson had the fewest carries.

Plus there's that thing he does where he rattles off runs for big gains and scores.

Those losses have much more to do with the Vikings getting their butts kicked and forced into penalties, negative yardage plays, and all that dictating our options more so than the coaches just forgetting they have Peterson.

I'd argue they have just as much to do with the mentality you're promoting above, a bunch of weak excuses to bail on the run. I'm not saying that's the only reason they lost those games but I think it was a significant factor.

[Raptorman]

you can cite bridgewater's stats from yesterday they are very misleading. even when we went all out pass he still wasn't able to get us another touchdown. i don't care if he throws for 150 yards; i'm sick of him only having 1 or no touchdowns nearly every game. if you think we can beat rodgers putting up numbers like that dream on. brees threw for 7 td's in 1 game and teddy has 9 this entire year. unless our offense improves majorly i can see us ending up 8-8 in all honesty. he played better behind just as bad of an o-line last year. it seems it is the o-line's fault, wallace's fault, and johnson's fault. maybe the fact is bridgewater isn't making the throws he needs to make. the fact that we only tried one deep ball yesterday should be disturbing to everyone in here.

Yup. You are absolutely right. Brees threw 7 TD's in one game. Because he had to to win. The other team threw 6. Brees numbers for the year

257/379 69.9% 2,972 yards , 20 TD's 9 Int.

This is were I mention that all that has helped the Saints to a 4-6 record. Throwing TD's don't do squat if you don't win. 5 of the top 10 QB's in passing, Well if the season ended today, their teams would not be in the playoffs.

[Mothman]

Yup. You are absolutely right. Brees threw 7 TD's in one game. Because he had to to win. The other team threw 6. Brees numbers for the year

257/379 69.9% 2,972 yards , 20 TD's 9 Int.

This is were I mention that all that has helped the Saints to a 4-6 record. Throwing TD's don't do squat if you don't win. 5 of the top 10 QB's in passing, Well if the season ended today, their teams would not be in the playoffs.

I don't understand the point of your response. It's obvious that there's more to winning football games than just throwing TDs but is there any downside to throwing TDs? It's clearly beneficial. Why shouldn't mosscarter, or any Vikings fan, want the team to have more than a measly 8 passing TDs in 10 games?

[mosscarter]

finally a voice of reason steps in; mothman to the rescue. you all seem to point at the fact that we have a winning record. i say so what it was against an easy schedule (extremely easy). i'm also predicting (and if i'm wrong call me out) we will lose most of these games down the stretch because our offense is no where near where it needs to be to be considered a real contender. teddy bridgewater has essentially completed one true deep ball for a touchdown all year (and was nearly overthrown to diggs). do you guys see how poorly that stacks up against a passing league? it's not even in the same ballpark. winston threw for 5 last week, newton 5 again, big ben 5 earlier this season, and mariota had 4 in his first start just to mention a few. aren't the signs on the all by now that there is a passing problem when your qb doesn't have a 3 throwing touchdown game in 21 starts?

then we have people arguing whether or not wallace gave up on 1 deep route. we were able to throw 1 single deep ball downfield yesterday and all i'm saying there is a reason for this. then people blame turner. if you honestly believe turner wouldn't be taking more downfield shots if he had a capable qb you are wrong. this isn't turner's fault; he is clearly working with what he has in teddy. teddy has zero downfield component to his game. when you dink and dunk everything it is easy to have an inflated completion percentage, but when about when you need to stretch the field? we simply can't do it. and i couldn't care less if the saints or giants are 0 and 10; i'm saying how would this team stack up with any of the following: brees, luck, big ben, carr, newton, romo, palmer, daulton, rivers, cutler, stafford or even eli? we would be true contenders. jordy you asked how i would have attacked differently; my answer would be to attempt to open up the passing game in the second quarter. try and run no huddle because the running game wasn't working; but i don't believe teddy is capable. has he done it in spurts, yes? has he looked great at times, yes, but not enough this year. for the most part he has gotten off to terribly slow starts and then we get in a position where he can throw in the second half and build up his yards. someone said he was 10/11 for 120 at one point, well one play was for 47 yards on the stat sheet come on.

we are going up against palmer, ryan, and rodgers again in the following weeks and in order to beat teams like that we need to be able to throw the ball down field.

[losperros]

then we have people arguing whether or not wallace gave up on 1 deep route. we were able to throw 1 single deep ball downfield yesterday and all i'm saying there is a reason for this. then people blame turner. if you honestly believe turner wouldn't be taking more downfield shots if he had a capable qb you are wrong. this isn't turner's fault; he is clearly working with what he has in teddy.

Then he better work harder. Turner is paid mega-bucks to do a job. I know some fans just love the guy and that's cool, but so what? He still has to coordinate the offense. Again, it's his job! That means getting the most out of each player's skill set and I don't see that in some cases.

No way can the offense sputtering be all on Bridgewater. Oh, he deserves blame but not all of it. I also don't believe its all Turner or any other individual. I don't even think it's all the offensive line and they've passed blocked abysmally bad throughout much of the season. This is an entire unit. It's apparent that there are problems in different areas. Nobody is immune to the need for improvement. Not on this offense, anyway.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I agree with the above, Edward. There are all kinds of strange dynamics at work with this passing game. Seriously, the entire passing attack feels as if it's being improvised on the spot after the ball is snapped despite the safe approach that's clearly being utilized by both Bridgewater and Turner.

The Bridgewater to Wallace connection simply isn't working. Not at all, regardless how one looks at it. Teddy overthrowing Wallace on deep routes is an issue. But honestly, sometimes Wallace just doesn't hang onto the ball and I don't care what route we're talking about. I'm beginning to wonder if the Vikings should start Diggs and Charles Johnson, and maybe use Wallace as a backup. After all, there was chemistry between Bridgewater and Johnson last year, and Teddy and Diggs work well together now.

I question how the entire passing attack is being constructed. Not to keep knocking Wallace but is he really the only WR on the team that can get deep? Nope. Johnson can. He did it last season. Wright has done it. Heck, he even did it with Ponder throwing the ball. And I'll bet Patterson could as well. But maybe it doesn't matter because the entire offense seems to spaz out the moment a pass play is called. From the OL to the skill players, the ball gets snapped and everything goes out of synch.

I agree with this 100%. This is exactly what I've been trying to say but some just think I hate Teddy. I've CLEARLY stated before that this passing game is a problem right now and never once did I say it was all Teddy's fault. The line is bad, Norv calls questionable plays, Teddy holds the ball too long, etc. I just want to know WHY can Teddy sling it around all 3rd and 4th quarter but couldn't come close to doing that in the 1st half outside of Rudys TD. In the second half, Teddy was hitting the back of his drop and letting it fly like he should be. In the first half, he hit the back of his drop and held the ball. You can say the line sucks but bottom line is, the line didn't block any better IMO in the 2nd half than the 1st half so why can Teddy do it in the 2nd but not the 1st???

If you had to ask me, I would say it's simply because he's playing too conservative. When he is forced to throw and forced to come back from a deficit, he looks great. He's very good under pressure because he knows that if he doesn't take those chances, we lose. When it's a tight game or we're up, he hardly ever makes those throws. I'm sorry but I can't really buy the fact that nobody is ever open the past 3 games. Turner said Wallace is the one being doubled so as good of a route runner Diggs is, someone is going to say he's not getting open now? I'm not buying it.

As for the Wallace-Teddy chemistry. It's awful right now. Teddy can't hit a deep throw to him to save his life and Wallace can't catch a short to intermediate route to save his life. I think Teddy has overthrown or underthrown a WIDE OPEN Mike Wallace deep this season at least 6 times. I specifically remember 3 in one game against Chicago. I mean he just about overthrew Diggs against Detroit and Diggs just made a great catch. His deep ball accuracy is very poor. I think he has the arm strength because most of the time it's an overthrow but the accuracy just isn't there.

Bottom line is, the blocking the last 3 games (minus GB) has been pretty solid and this passing game isn't working. So when you then mix bad blocking with a bad passing game, it looks quite ugly. We need to work on Teddy hitting the back of his drop and letting it go. Enough of this conservative crap. If AP gets shut down, we collapse because we don't want to take any chances. Great teams take chances and that is a big reason why they are great

[randomghost11]

Want an explanation for Teddys lack of TD? Through a little research things make more sense. First off majority of TD passes come from within the 20 yards of the endzone and even more of that come from within 10 yards.

Vikings Passing:
FieldPosition Att Com Td
Opp 19-goal 28 13 5
Opp 10-goal 13 5 4

Vikings Rushing:
FieldPosition Att Td
Opp 19-goal 42 7
Opp 10-goal 27 7

(Teddy has 2 of these)

So the vikings obviously run more in the redzone than they pass but how does this compare to other teams? For comparison i chose the packers because of the similar number of attempts total.

Packers Passing:
FieldPosition Att Com Td
Opp 19-goal 45 24 16
Opp 10-goal 31 19 14

Packers Rushing:
FieldPosition Att Td
Opp 19-goal 25 3
Opp 10-goal 13 3

The complete opposite is done by the packers. With an adjustment for attempts teddy would have 9 tds with 31 attempts and this is without including the 2 dropped touchdowns by rudolph because i dont know if the packers have any similar plays. Now teddy is still behind in comparison but this doesn't factor in offensive line or receivers which change things.

In order for teddy to put up the td stats you guys want we would have to cut adrians attempts in half but do you guys really want the best running back in the league to get it less? I don't and i think the coachs agree

[Pondering Her Percy]

Want an explanation for Teddys lack of TD? Through a little research things make more sense. First off majority of TD passes come from within the 20 yards of the endzone and even more of that come from within 10 yards.

Vikings Passing:
FieldPosition Att Com Td
Opp 19-goal 28 13 5
Opp 10-goal 13 5 4

Vikings Rushing:
FieldPosition Att Td
Opp 19-goal 42 7
Opp 10-goal 27 7

(Teddy has 2 of these)

So the vikings obviously run more in the redzone than they pass but how does this compare to other teams? For comparison i chose the packers because of the similar number of attempts total.

Packers Passing:
FieldPosition Att Com Td
Opp 19-goal 45 24 16
Opp 10-goal 31 19 14

Packers Rushing:
FieldPosition Att Td
Opp 19-goal 25 3
Opp 10-goal 13 3

The complete opposite is done by the packers. With an adjustment for attempts teddy would have 9 tds with 31 attempts and this is without including the 2 dropped touchdowns by rudolph because i dont know if the packers have any similar plays. Now teddy is still behind in comparison but this doesn't factor in offensive line or receivers which change things.

In order for teddy to put up the td stats you guys want we would have to cut adrians attempts in half but do you guys really want the best running back in the league to get it less? I don't and i think the coachs agree

Good breakdown! I agree that you still have to pound AP. 5 of 13 inside the 10 isn't very good but 4 out of the 5 are TDs. We're definitely a different team than GB. We rely a ton more on the run than they do but I'm not even necessarily worried about the TD production as much as I am with the passing in the middle of the field and back. That is the biggest struggle right now I think. Gotta find more success there right now and it's not happening.

[randomghost11]

Good breakdown! I agree that you still have to pound AP. 5 of 13 inside the 10 isn't very good but 4 out of the 5 are TDs. We're definitely a different team than GB. We rely a ton more on the run than they do but I'm not even necessarily worried about the TD production as much as I am with the passing in the middle of the field and back. That is the biggest struggle right now I think. Gotta find more success there right now and it's not happening.

Thanks. I plan on looking more into the deep and intermediate passing to see how it stacks up vs other players. Obviously the production from teddy is lacking in that category though i do believe the offensive line is definitely making it hard for these routes to have time to develop.

[DK Sweets]

That was a great breakdown. Thanks for researching that for us!