The Teddy Bridgewater Thread

[mansquatch]

Sorry that post became so long.

WTF, my posts are always concise and to the point.

[IrishViking]

I'm assuming you've seen the quotes from coaches saying they want him to "turn it loose". I'm not sure how else that can be interpreted but I'm open to hearing other interpretations.

that they are going to tell Teddy to do it. the assumption being here that they are, which there is no proof of. the INTERPRETATION is that they are already telling him to do this. Not that they haven't done it yet. that to me is a prefect example; "They say turn it loose. they must be telling him to do that every drive already. Teddy must be not living up to their expectations"

Because he's not Manning. He doesn't have the arm, the experience or the skill set to justify minimizing the contributions of the best RB in football for the sake of putting him in the shotgun 95% of the time. We saw how well that worked in week 1. I don't think the Vikes have the OL or receiving corps to justify that approach either.

I am not saying he is. I am just using the most obvious example of a QB playing to his strength and it not impacting the team negatively. As you alluded to, Peterson is the obvious reason why not to do that. But him not playing in is preferred position is a small piece of the puzzle for his performance so far this year. People want to know why is isn't progressing by leaps and bounds? Because he is playing under center now more than he ever has before. Its a reason. Generally speaking, if it wasn't for AP I think shotgun is a pretty typically way to prop up shoddy pass blocking isn't it?

I'll bring up the dreaded "C" word (no, not that one) here: coddling. I hate that term but it applies to what we're discussing. If all they do is put him in his most comfortable situation, ask him to play safe, etc. then they won't be developing him so much as indulging and overprotecting him. He needs to grow as a QB.

I categorically disagree with you here. First, they AREN'T doing this. Second, Teddy isn't asking for it. Third, I feel it is disingenuous to qualify Peterson struggles from Shotgun every way possible, but just say Teddy needs to put up or shut up. I agree that Teddy needs to improve and I see no evidence that he wont but the difference between Teddy under center and Teddy in Shotgun is a large one and I will be stunned if they don't move Teddy to Shotgun almost exclusively once AP retires.

Of course. That's how teams go from average to good and from good to elite, championship-caliber teams... and nobody is suggesting Bridgewater should be able to "connect on deep and naturally more risky plays at will".

No it isn't. Practice is, corrections are, the Off Season is. Learning to win. Learning a 2 minute offense. Learning a 5 minute Offense. Pushing to always gain the most yards on the surface is technically a choice but its no more an explanation of how you improve at football than saying "Stabbing more" is how you get better at Fencing.

That's basically what people are asking of him! I don't think anybody is suggesting it should be "bombs away", just produce. I'll say it for the 100th time (since nobody seems to care anyway): Teddy and this passing game are on a trajectory to be one of the least productive passing games in franchise history. I get that the team is winning but it's just mind-boggling to me that suggesting they do more, that they not be one of the worst passing attacks in Vikings history, is seen as unreasonable. Is it really unreasonable to ask that Bridgewater produce at a higher level than, say, Christian Ponder or Tarvaris Jackson?

In a vacuum? I agree completely. That would be awful. But when you step back and Couple it with, historically speaking, being on pace for our teams best rushing season ever and what I would guess would rate in the top 10, if not 5 defenses ever for the Vikings? It sorta explains to me the numbers a bit more. I have no doubt that if we were playing from behind more, losing more games, and being forced to take more risks, Teddy would have 40-50 more completions, several hundred more yards, and more garbage time TDs (and interceptions) that would lead people to say. "Well he needs to reduce the INTs but at least he is producing"

I haven't forgotten them. I just want him to expand on them. Any QB drafted in the first round and capable of starting in the NFL should be able to put together some good drives. Finish more drives with TDs. Convert more third downs. Take fewer avoidable sacks. Settle for the check down less easily. Becoming more productive and opening his game up doesn't have to involve reckless play, forced deep throws, etc.

I agree with you. I guess what this comes down to is me thinking fewer of those Redzone FGs fall on his shoulders, Fewer of those Third down fails fall on him, Fewer of those sacks were avoidable, and fewer of those checkdowns were unnecessary than you do. So that makes me less concerned I guess?

I can't recall seeing many (if any) reasonable posts suggesting they should just give up on him already. I think he should get the rest of this year and he should be their starting QB next year too. I don't want to give up on him, I want to see him play better.

We all do. But at this point, apart from the Deep ball, I dont see anything that merits any more concern than, meh, needs more reps in game, needs more experience.

[Mothman]

Honestly I'm not so sure that's what we are discussing. To me it seems this discussion is taking many different angles and is getting very mind numbing.

That's why I said "stems from". The discussion obviously veers all over the place.

WTF, my posts are always concise and to the point.

[TSonn]

Thanks for the replies, Moth and SV. I guess my main concern is the fans giving up on Teddy after this season (like I've read on here quite a few times), regardless of the outcome. I definitely do not see it in a black/white vacuum and I honestly think we won't see much of a difference from Teddy the remainder of this year. That's not because I don't think he has the ability, but more because we are currently playing winning football. Sure, Scott Turner has recently talked about Teddy letting it loose a little more - but does he really mean that when we are winning games? I think we may see a few games/situations where Teddy is asked to do more for the team and, while I hope Teddy will be successful, I expect the outcomes will be mixed (like the Denver and Chicago games). That's because Teddy is 23 years old.

The only way I see us being able to make up our minds on Teddy by the end of the season is if the coaches change the game plan from prioritizing the running game/TOP into prioritizing the passing attack. But that probably means we have started to lose games, so obviously I want them to stay the current course.

[akvikingsfan]

For all the criticism that Bridgewater has gotten in throwing for less than 200 yards in half of his games this season, he's shown the ability to find the open man when he's absolutely needed to. That's not stat-sexy, but it's winning football.

[Mothman]

that they are going to tell Teddy to do it. the assumption being here that they are, which there is no proof of. the INTERPRETATION is that they are already telling him to do this. Not that they haven't done it yet. that to me is a prefect example; "They say turn it loose. they must be telling him to do that every drive already. Teddy must be not living up to their expectations"

I apologize but I'm not 100% clear on what you're saying above. It seems quite clear that the coaches have told Bridgewater they'd like him to "turn it loose".

I am not saying he is. I am just using the most obvious example of a QB playing to his strength and it not impacting the team negatively. As you alluded to, Peterson is the obvious reason why not to do that. But him not playing in is preferred position is a small piece of the puzzle for his performance so far this year. People want to know why is isn't progressing by leaps and bounds? Because he is playing under center now more than he ever has before. Its a reason. Generally speaking, if it wasn't for AP I think shotgun is a pretty typically way to prop up shoddy pass blocking isn't it?

It's a way to allow a QB to get the ball out of his hands more quickly, yes.

I categorically disagree with you here. First, they AREN'T doing this. Second, Teddy isn't asking for it.

I realize this. I didn't say they are coddling him. I was simply saying that if they catered to his comfort level and asked him not to lose games, they would be coddling him.

Third, I feel it is disingenuous to qualify Peterson struggles from Shotgun every way possible, but just say Teddy needs to put up or shut up.

It might be disingenuous if I'd actually said that but I didn't.

No it isn't. Practice is, corrections are, the Off Season is. Learning to win. Learning a 2 minute offense. Learning a 5 minute Offense. Pushing to always gain the most yards on the surface is technically a choice but its no more an explanation of how you improve at football than saying "Stabbing more" is how you get better at Fencing.

I never said anything about "pushing to always gain the most yards on the surface" either. My point was just about improvement, which is achieved through steps like those you describe above but manifests in production and wins.

In a vacuum? I agree completely. That would be awful. But when you step back and Couple it with, historically speaking, being on pace for our teams best rushing season ever and what I would guess would rate in the top 10, if not 5 defenses ever for the Vikings? It sorta explains to me the numbers a bit more.

Sure, and it explains Ponder's numbers in 2012 more and it explains some of Jackson's numbers too since he played on Vikings teams that leaned heavily on Peterson and defense.

I agree with you. I guess what this comes down to is me thinking fewer of those Redzone FGs fall on his shoulders, Fewer of those Third down fails fall on him, Fewer of those sacks were avoidable, and fewer of those checkdowns were unnecessary than you do. So that makes me less concerned I guess?

I guess but I've made it clear all along that I don't put all of the team's shortcomings in the passing game on Bridgewater. I just see him leave plays on the field that are there to be made so even though there are other areas of the passing game that need to improve, he also needs to improve and produce more. It really strikes me as a pretty reasonable position. He doesn't need to post great fantasy stats. I only care about stats to the extent that they reflect better performance and there IS room for Bridgewater to perform quite a bit better than he has thus far this season, within the context of this offense. better overall offense, combined with the current defense = better chance to win it all.

It's all very unreasonable.

[IrishViking]

I apologize but I'm not 100% clear on what you're saying above. It seems quite clear that the coaches have told Bridgewater they'd like him to "turn it loose".

No where do they say that, that's a perfect example of my point

I realize this. I didn't say they are coddling him. I was simply saying that if they catered to his comfort level and asked him not to lose games, they would be coddling him.

You say coddle, I say play to his strengths?

It might be disingenuous if I'd actually said that but I didn't.

So why not snap from shotgun and let Peterson learn to run from there... He is the seasoned savvy veteran after all

Sure, and it explains Ponder's numbers in 2012 more and it explains some of Jackson's numbers too since he played on Vikings teams that leaned heavily on Peterson and defense.

Not this defense. And Jackson never had this production rate out of Peterson (Ponder did however). And as I pointed out before. IF our defense was struggling and we had to throw more versus run out the clock at the end of the game birdgewater would have the numbers people want logically speaking. His completion percentage is in the mid 60s his average throw is 7.1 which aren't bad at all for a QB. Brady is 3 percent better and a yard more per attempt. But Bridgewater as about 80 fewer attempts than most other QBs and well over 100 fewer than the prolific passers in the league. Doing the math on that means that in 80 more attempts he'd have about 50 something more completions. Lets say 57. that would be 404 more yards so far this year. he is average a TD every 23 completions (thanks Rudolph ) that would be two more TDs so 9 he is average an interception every 42 attempts. That's just under 2 more. so he'd be at 7-8. That's not great but lets be honest, Garbage time catch up yards and TDs are easier to come by, I would probably add 2-3 TDs there and a couple hundred more yards. This isn't me trying to pretend he has better stats. This is me just trying to illustrate how many Yards, TDs, and INT a great defense can remove from a QB. 2 fourth quarter possessions that are all running or dinks versus ones that are trying to score will result in FAR different totals.

I agree with you. I guess what this comes down to is me thinking fewer of those Redzone FGs fall on his shoulders, Fewer of those Third down fails fall on him, Fewer of those sacks were avoidable, and fewer of those checkdowns were unnecessary than you do. So that makes me less concerned I guess?

I guess but I've made it clear all along that I don't put all of the team's shortcomings in the passing game on Bridgewater. I just see him leave plays on the field that are there to be made so even though there are other areas of the passing game that need to improve, he also needs to improve and produce more. It really strikes me as a pretty reasonable position. He doesn't need to post great fantasy stats. I only care about stats to the extent that they reflect better performance and there IS room for Bridgewater to perform quite a bit better than he has thus far this season, within the context of this offense. better overall offense, combined with the current defense = better chance to win it all.

I guess that's where I disagree with you, with my point above. Teddy's Per stats aren't that bad. Its his total stats which IMO (which i think I have backed up with numbers) are suppressed by our defense and Peterson being our go to weapon.

It's all very unreasonable.

I disagree, you are being very reasonable and I am the unreasonable one. I refuse to accept your reasonable state of unreasonability... I wish to escalate. OFFICER DOWN. INVOKE ARTICLE FIVE. DEFCON ONE!

[Grashopa]

Because he's not Manning. He doesn't have the arm, the experience or the skill set to justify minimizing the contributions of the best RB in football for the sake of putting him in the shotgun 95% of the time. We saw how well that worked in week 1. I don't think the Vikes have the OL or receiving corps to justify that approach either.

I'll bring up the dreaded "C" word (no, not that one) here: coddling. I hate that term but it applies to what we're discussing. If all they do is put him in his most comfortable situation, ask him to play safe, etc. then they won't be developing him so much as indulging and overprotecting him. He needs to grow as a QB.

I just enjoyed this quote because it verifies that you agree with most of what some of the others are saying. Teddy Bridgewater is a young quarter back with a 66% career win rate that still has a lot of room to grow and gain experience and it is hard to justify putting the team on his shoulders when you have the best running back in the league ready and willing to take on that load. I don't believe we need to worry about the coddling, if we are talking about shotgun vs under center, it is obvious that the coaches are not putting him in the best position to personally succeed and rack up stats but they must be doing something to put the team in the best position to succeed.

I may be a homer, but I enjoy watching Teddy and the Vikings play. At a glance, during the live action, it seems that teddy comes up with the big plays and big drives when he has to. Peterson and the defense minimize how often these games have to be solely in Teddys hands, Lucky for the Vikings this is a team sport and they don't just give the win to whichever teams QB has the best stats each week.

Comparing Teddy to all the other successful second year QBs... Carr, you have to wonder if they were to change places and Teddy had one of the best O-lines and was throwing to the front runner for ROY and Crabtree, would his stats be closer to above average? If we put Carr behind our O-line would we be minimizing Petersons touches and allowing him to put up the numbers that he is? Would Diggs be the clear cut ROY?

[DK Sweets]

Whenever a thread gets as crazy as this one, my mind always goes to free tacos. I don't know why.

[mansquatch]

Whenever a thread gets as crazy as this one, my mind always goes to free tacos. I don't know why.

I could be thin and in shape and beautiful. But I like Tacos and Booze.

[Mothman]

No where do they say that, that's a perfect example of my point

So the idea is that Mike Zimmer has told the media he wants Bridgewater to turn it loose" without ever telling his QB the same thing? Does that actually sound like Zimmer's style to you? It seems a pretty unlikely scenario a but even if it's true, don't you think the comment from his head coach would have made it's way to Bridgewater's ears by now?

Not this defense. And Jackson never had this production rate out of Peterson (Ponder did however).

They both did: Ponder in 2012 and jackson in 2008. Peterson rushed for 1760 yards that season and he's on pace for about 1700 this year.

I guess that's where I disagree with you, with my point above. Teddy's Per stats aren't that bad. Its his total stats which IMO (which i think I have backed up with numbers) are suppressed by our defense and Peterson being our go to weapon.

I understand the impact the Vikings approach I appreciate the effort you put into the stats but again, the stats really only concern me to the degree that they reflect effectiveness. In other words, my main concern is in key areas like scoring, sustaining drives and turnovers. The stuff like YPA is interesting, and can be useful, but I think it's those key areas that matter most. For example, if you look at the number of TDs the Vikes have scored vs. the number of FGs they attempted, it's clear their offense stalls quite a bit on scoring drives. I'm much more concerned with seeing them develop into an offense that can finish more drives with TDs than I am with Bridgewater's average per attempt or even his yardage totals, if you see what I mean.

On this subject of defense, running game and the impact they have on QB stats, consider the Cardinals:

Arizona runs the ball almost as much as the Vikings (they average 2 fewer runs per game) and they do so effectively (they're ranked 8th in the league). The Cardinals also possess the league's 3rd-ranked defense (11th in scoring at 20.6 ppg) yet somehow, with a similarly effective combination of running and defense, they've managed to field a passing game ranked 4th in the league, with 23 TDs and 7 INTs. They have more attempts than the Vikings but that's partly because they're more effective than the Vikings. I realize comparing a veteran QB like Palmer to Bridgewater is an "apples and oranges" comparison but the point is the Vikings approach isn't such a limiting factor. The greater limiting factor is the ineffectiveness of their own passing game. It's possible to play the kind of defense they're playing, run the ball like they're running it and still have a much more productive passing game.

I disagree, you are being very reasonable and I am the unreasonable one. I refuse to accept your reasonable state of unreasonability... I wish to escalate. OFFICER DOWN. INVOKE ARTICLE FIVE. DEFCON ONE!

[Mothman]

I just enjoyed this quote because it verifies that you agree with most of what some of the others are saying. Teddy Bridgewater is a young quarter back with a 66% career win rate that still has a lot of room to grow and gain experience and it is hard to justify putting the team on his shoulders when you have the best running back in the league ready and willing to take on that load. I don't believe we need to worry about the coddling, if we are talking about shotgun vs under center, it is obvious that the coaches are not putting him in the best position to personally succeed and rack up stats but they must be doing something to put the team in the best position to succeed.

That's exactly what they're trying to do.

It troubles me that you felt the need to post the comment I highlighted above. I hope it doesn't surprise you or anyone else that I understand Bridgewater is a young QB with room to grow. I've certainly posted that and again, what do people think I'm talking about here if not the need for growth and improvement?

I'm not anti-Teddy Bridgewater, just pro-Teddy Bridgewater improvement.

Comparing Teddy to all the other successful second year QBs... Carr, you have to wonder if they were to change places and Teddy had one of the best O-lines and was throwing to the front runner for ROY and Crabtree, would his stats be closer to above average? If we put Carr behind our O-line would we be minimizing Petersons touches and allowing him to put up the numbers that he is? Would Diggs be the clear cut ROY?

It's impossible to say but I suspect both teams would be taking different approaches because of the differences in the players strengths and weaknesses.

[Mothman]

Whenever a thread gets as crazy as this one, my mind always goes to free tacos. I don't know why.

I wish mine did. At this point, my mind is just turning toward therapy.

[IrishViking]

I mean no offense but by admitting the Arizona comparison is "apples and Oranges" doesn't mean I am not going to accept it on principle. Palmer vs Bridgewater is an absurd comparison and If teddy had as many years under his belt as Carson I'd want him gone.


I agree with the Not like Zimmer. I mean that day is probably the first time Zimmer mentioned it to ANYONE. Including Teddy.


I guess the Stats thing in the redzone I kinda get. But the fact that if we were running a 3-6 season right now and having to score to keep up and take risks its basically a forgone conclusion that Teddy would have a lot more TDS, INT, and YARDS and with that all I mean is if Teddy had 500-600 more yards, 4-5 more TDs I think most of us would just say "Redzone offense takes experience, third down conversions will come." But because his numbers are being depressed (and they are sorta depressing ) I think its artificially inflating our worries because on paper it looks like he barely knows which end of the ball to hold.

A la Johnny football... Did they credit him with a strip fumble?

As for the Peterson pace thing. I was going off of the pace that he was setting in 2013, right now he like, 8 yards ahead of it and he seems to be gaining steam.

[dead_poet]

Don't sweat it, guys. Schiano thinks Teddy is like Montana. We're good.

Ex-Bucs coach Greg Schiano: Teddy Bridgewater is a young Joe Montana

"This may be a little bit weird, but I look at Teddy Bridgewater and he reminds me of a young Joe Montana," Schiano told ESPN's Mike and Mike. "He's accurate, he's just mobile enough to give you real fits and he's a smart quarterback. He's got weapons around. That's why i think his ceiling is sneaky."

Although Bridgewater hasn't exactly put up eye-popping numbers since he was taken 32nd overall by the Vikings in 2014, that doesn't mean he can't play. To any Bridgewater doubters out there, Schiano pointed out that Montana also had plenty of doubters after he was taken in the third round of the 1979 NFL Draft.

"Remember, when Joe was young, people were questioning, 'Could he even play in this league?'" Schiano said.

Montana's career actually got off to a rocky start. The three-time Super Bowl MVP actually went 3-8 in his first 11 starts. During Montana's first full-season as a starter in 1981, 49ers coach Bill Walsh used the running game to take pressure off of his quarterback: Only 48 percent of San Francisco's plays that year were pass plays.

In that sense, Bridgewater is being used the same way. Through nine games this year, the Vikings have thrown 260 passes, which represents 48.6 percent of their offensive calls. Minnesota has run the ball 274 times, which leads the NFL.

More here: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foo ... oe-montana