The Teddy Bridgewater Thread

[The Breeze]

Most definitely speculation

I just think the kid wil benefit from some adversity...as we all do.

They're 6-2, so it ain't broke til something actually breaks.
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'New organs of perception arise out of necessity'~Rumi

[PurpleKoolaid]

I really hope by the end of the year, teddy shows more consistency. I think some nit pick him more then he deserves, but he needs to get a little better every weeks. And his int's have to be more of the type of trying to force a ball into coverage, then some of the balls looking like they just get away from him. I really think he has all the skills needed to be a good NFL QB. And I am hoping time, and some good coaching, a few years from now, he will be a top 10 QB. Cause I have a feeling our D is going to be a top 3 D by then.

[TeddyBaller]

btw i think Teddy misses Greg Jennings

[J. Kapp 11]

I really hope by the end of the year, teddy shows more consistency. I think some nit pick him more then he deserves, but he needs to get a little better every weeks. And his int's have to be more of the type of trying to force a ball into coverage, then some of the balls looking like they just get away from him. I really think he has all the skills needed to be a good NFL QB. And I am hoping time, and some good coaching, a few years from now, he will be a top 10 QB. Cause I have a feeling our D is going to be a top 3 D by then.

By then?

They are now.

[jackal]

I liked Jennings.. he wasn't a deep threat but he made some good plays for us...

He was a good teammate as well.

[PurpleKoolaid]

By then?

They are now.

I mean annually. Like some of the old D's the Vikings have had.

[John_Viveiros]

I have to give credit where credit is due... I read this on a PFF comment thread about the Vikes after yesterday's win:

I think Norv is aware that the beating Troy Aikman took early in his career probably took 2-3 years off the back of it. He's not going to subject Teddy to the pounding he would take if he was on a bunch of 7 step drops. The offensive line is not there yet.

That's an interesting perspective I hadn't read before (sorry if you said it, and I missed it). Anyway, maybe Norv is thinking long term here.

[Mothman]

This was in the MMQB "Viking Age" article I linked to in another thread. It's pretty interesting:

In reality, Bridgewater has limitations that Carr—and other upper-echelon young quarterbacks—do not. Namely, arm strength. Bridgewater is not a guy who can “make all the throws,” as they say. He doesn’t have a Chad Pennington-type noodle, but he cannot consistently drive the ball at the deep-intermediate levels. In the last two weeks the Vikings have played in windy conditions and, not coincidentally, their downfield passing attack has disappeared.

Limited arm strength doesn’t mean Bridgewater can’t play. Rather, it means, like Pennington, he can only play a certain way. His ascension as a pro will hinge on his ability to anticipate throwing windows. To overcome his limitations, he’ll have to be great in this realm. Quarterbacks with declining arm strength can target these tight windows because, having once had the arm strength, they’ve spent their careers identifying them (see: Brees, Drew). When you’re relatively meager-armed, it’s never occurred to you to target the tight windows because you’ve never been able to.

Some—in fact, many—modest-armed passers remain big-window guys their entire careers. Alex Smith is a good example; and so far Bridgewater resembles Alex Smith. That may seem unflattering, but it’s not necessarily. Smith, after all, is a smart QB. He doesn’t make many big plays because he doesn’t take a lot of chances, but on the flip side, he doesn’t make many negative plays either. He plays in a well-constructed scheme under Andy Reid, emphasizing his strengths while avoiding his weaknesses. This is where Bridgewater is. Vikings offensive coordinator Norv Turner is a brilliant play-designer and play-caller. And while Turner prefers vertical passing and aggression at the deep intermediate levels, he realizes he’s no longer coaching Troy Aikman or Philip Rivers, and he has subtly amended his approach accordingly. The Vikings’ passing game features reads that are not strictly defined, per se, like in a remedial system. But overall, many of the reads are at least somewhat defined, or inherently contained in a way that simplifies the QB’s progressions. Evidence of this are the rollout passes, wide receiver misdirection concepts (plus screens) and high-low route combinations, on which Bridgewater can read two receivers and one defender all within the same line of vision. This controlled approach has lifted some of the pressure off Bridgewater and has served to neutralize a Vikings offensive line that has tackles (Matt Kalil and especially rookie T.J. Clemmings) who can be vulnerable in pass protection, and an interior (guards Mike Harris and Brandon Fusco plus backup center Joe Berger) that lacks athleticism.

[John_Viveiros]

I am a big believer that the QB has an over-sized value in the league. Over and over, teams go from dominant to lousy (like this year's Cowboys, Packers without Rodgers, Broncos without Elway, Colts without Manning or Luck, etc.) based on the loss of their QB. I was also a much bigger fan of Brad Johnson than Daunte Culpepper - Brad always managed to milk the clock and move the chains when we had the lead, and Daunte was good for three turnovers every two games all by himself, and they lost some pretty ridiculous games (like losing to the four worst teams in the league one year - 2003?). Daunte had the stats, Brad was the QB who was going to be able to win a superbowl.

It seems we find ourselves with another "weak-armed" QB with "substandard" stats. And he's 7-2.

I am wondering whether Teddy's low stat totals are by design. When the Vikings have the lead, they milk the clock with the run and Teddy takes no chances. When he needs to score, he can drive the Vikings down the field like an elite QB. Why do I think so? Look at the games where the Vikings were down in the 4th quarter and he needed to drive the Vikings down the field to score (I'm specifically talking about this year, but the last half of last year probably works the same).

The Vikes were down ten at Denver. He threw a 20 yard strike to Thielen (dropped), then a 15 yard out to Diggs, then a 15 yard in to Thielen, 1 yard gain to the TE, 9 yard out to Patterson, sacked, false start (2nd and 23 now), McKinnon run for 6, 16 yard in to Thielen, to set up the 4th and 1 TD for Peterson.

Then to tie it, it's a 7 yard dump to Peterson, a 12 yard out to Wallace, a couple defensive penalties, a 20 yard out to Diggs, two runs of one yard lost, but a 10 yard in to Thielen to put us in easy FG range.

After Denver takes the lead, he dumps to Peterson for 9, gives up that 9 with a sack, scrambles for it all back plus one for the first down, throws a 10 yard out to Wallace, throws an incomplete (gasp!), and then gets strip sacked to end the game.

Against the #1 defense, that's some serious QB magic going on.

Same thing happened when they were down seven late to Chicago. Scramble for 19, dump to Peterson for 1, out to Diggs for 10, defensive penalty, incomplete (!) to Diggs, 7 yard dump to Pruitt, and the 15 yard in that Diggs turned in to a 40 yard TD.

Get the ball back, and it's a 4 yard screen, a 35 yard in to Johnson, a 9 yard Peterson run, and the game winning FG comes next.

But he doesn't play that way when the game is in hand. It's an admittedly small sample size, but even going back to last year, it seems clear that his biggest days passing were those where the defense wasn't holding the other team down (Atlanta, Miami come to mind quickly). I too would like Teddy to have cool fantasy stats, but I think that maybe would put at risk the most important stat of all - the won/lost record.

[DK Sweets]

Thank you for that post, John. You collected a lot of thoughts that I've had and put them into words that had been escaping me.

I would also like to add a different bit of perspective to this: I have a friend who is a Pats fan, and he's been scared of this season all year long. The way he sees it, this team is a recipe for heart break. He's seen Patriots teams that have had fantastic offenses, but the championship teams always leaned on their defense. Tom Brady, in his opinion, is more dangerous when he's being asked to frustrate the opponent than when he's asked to score 30 points. He can do both, but when things deviate from the script it's easier to ask Tom Brady to elevate his game to account for a bad defensive game than for an average defense to elevate their game to account for the opponent stifling the Patriots' offense.

I feel like that, to a lesser degree, is where we're at with Teddy. We'd rather rely on him in crunch time when the game hasn't gone as planned as opposed to relying on him to be the focal point of our team for 60 minutes at age 23.

In my opinion, it's a good way to acclimate a young guy to a lot of different situations in football. YMMV, of course.

[Mothman]

Thank you for that post, John. You collected a lot of thoughts that I've had and put them into words that had been escaping me.

I would also like to add a different bit of perspective to this: I have a friend who is a Pats fan, and he's been scared of this season all year long. The way he sees it, this team is a recipe for heart break. He's seen Patriots teams that have had fantastic offenses, but the championship teams always leaned on their defense. Tom Brady, in his opinion, is more dangerous when he's being asked to frustrate the opponent than when he's asked to score 30 points. He can do both, but when things deviate from the script it's easier to ask Tom Brady to elevate his game to account for a bad defensive game than for an average defense to elevate their game to account for the opponent stifling the Patriots' offense.

I feel like that, to a lesser degree, is where we're at with Teddy. We'd rather rely on him in crunch time when the game hasn't gone as planned as opposed to relying on him to be the focal point of our team for 60 minutes at age 23.

In my opinion, it's a good way to acclimate a young guy to a lot of different situations in football. YMMV, of course.

My mileage varies a lot. I know nobody is surprised!

I think this idea that Bridgewater can just flip a switch and "drive the Vikings down the field like an elite QB" when they need to score is a rationalization that helps justify his rather poor overall production. John pointed to the Denver game as an example of this supposed ability but it's a poor example because when that game was on the line and they needed to score to tie or win it, they couldn't drive down the field and get it done. They lost. There was no final drive for the tie or win.

I can't speak for anyone else but for me, it's not about Bridgewater being the focal point of the offense. I don't care about that. It's about production and Bridgewater's development. I find it unacceptable that the Vikings have one of the league's worst passing games. Referring to "fantasy stats" makes it sound like such a concern is trivial but fantasy stats reflect yardage and touchdowns. It's my understanding that gaining yardage and scoring touchdowns are also important in real football games. The Vikes get very few TDs out of their passing game. They have too many drives end in FGs or punts. They have a 35% third down conversion rate, one of the worst ion the league. These are aspects of the offense that clearly need improvement, weaknesses that could hurt the team's chances for continued success as their schedule gets harder and the season moves toward the postseason. Bridgewater, and the passing game, need to develop into a much more formidable aspect of the offense than they are now.

[dead_poet]

I'll just leave this here.

Chill Out on Teddy Bridgewater
Teddy Bridgewater isn't playing poorly, or even simply average. He's playing well and showing exactly the kind of development you hope for in a franchise quarterback, even without gaudy statistics

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2015/11/18 ... ridgewater

[Mothman]

Worth reading (and the video is worth watching too):

Does Teddy Bridgewater need to throw sooner? Not as often as you think

For as much as he's been under pressure, Bridgewater isn't turning the ball over much, and that might be the biggest thing the Vikings could ask of him when they're running the ball and playing defense as well as they are. They don't need a quarterback short-circuiting drives with turnovers, and Bridgewater has managed to avoid those by staying away from hasty decisions. Yes, the Vikings would like to push the ball downfield, as Zimmer said. Yes, they need Bridgewater to hit big plays when they're there. But there didn't appear to be many times where Bridgewater passed up an obvious downfield shot yesterday. The passing game hasn't been explosive, but it also hasn't been implosive, and Bridgewater deserves some credit for that.

So how do the Vikings inject some more production into their passing game? Quick throws seem to be a point of comfort for Bridgewater, and his biggest two plays came when he let his two starters -- Mike Wallace and Stefon Diggs -- run after the catch yesterday. The Vikings still need to be better at protecting Bridgewater, and as Zimmer and offensive coordinator Norv Turner said last week, Bridgewater needs to hit big plays when they're available to him.

[fiestavike]

Bridgewater needs to hit big plays when they're available to him.

[/quote]

That's basically what it boils down to. Otherwise he's playing smart and effectively. Stats Shmats. You can see what he does and doesn't do well when you watch the games.

[Mothman]

Following up on that link above, here's an example of a big play Bridgewater needed to hit when it was available to him on Sunday. Don't get me wrong: There weren't too many of these opportunities but this one was there and as far as I can tell on film, he never looked at his wide open TE on this play. I had to put this together quickly so I apologize for not numbering the pics or going into more detail.

3Q 8:04
1.) Pre-snap alignment. Pruitt is lined up on the far right side of the line.
2.) Pruitt goes in motion.
3.) The play at the snap.
4.) Pruitt comes off the line and takes his route to the outside, up the field. Bridgewater has just faked a handoff to peterson, who will drift out to the QB's left.
5.) Peterson (circled) is coming open. Pruitt (also circled) is WIDE open with nothing but green ahead of him.
6.) The ball is in the air in this shot, on it's way to Peterson. Again, Pruitt is wide open on this play, uncovered. At the 21 yard line or so, you can see a Raider defender recognizing the situation and heading his way.
7.) Peterson is catching the pass (for a 3 yard loss). Pruitt is slowing down, realizing the ball isn't coming his way.









I didn't capture the exact moment when the ball was thrown but you can see that Pruitt was wide open the whole time. This was a big missed opportunity.